Varysblackfyre321

Was Robert doomed to fail from the start?

82 posts in this topic

On 1/30/2018 at 5:37 PM, Universal Sword Donor said:

Maybe. Cersei doesn't seem to be the type to ever truly love anyone but herself, so I have my doubts about her attempts and that particular passage given her actions that day. Robert did, however, fuck up really bad by mentioning Lyanna.

I agree. Even with Jaime, her "love" flickered out quickly once he started behaving in a manner she didn't much care for. Cersei has the tendency to come up with reasons after the fact to justify her hating people.

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On 12/29/2017 at 5:40 PM, Varysblackfyre321 said:

What exactly would change in his behavior if he wasn't granted the crown? I don't think anything. 

Yeah, no matter what the background  would have been, he needed to die to advance the plot. There's no getting around that one 

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Robert was doomed to fail from the start.  He only lasted as long as he did because Jon Arryn was running the kingdom.  And Jon did a piss poor job of that.  They started out with a healthy treasure chest and by the end of his reign they owed the Iron Bank and the Lannisters.

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16 hours ago, snow is the man said:

I don't think she would have loved him but she would have played the game or at least not despised him to the point where she loved it when he died. They would have at least been able to be civil.

See I don't. Sleeping with Jaime on the morning of her wedding shows me that she wasn't really committed to marrying Robert, not that I necessarily would expect her to. Subsequent behavior after one very bad fuck up, in addition to what little we know of Cersei pre-marriage,  only reinforces that for me. Robert grew to hate/loathe/fear her over time but he was trying to spend time with her even after that ill-fated night.

The civil part I agree on.

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4 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

See I don't. Sleeping with Jaime on the morning of her wedding shows me that she wasn't really committed to marrying Robert, not that I necessarily would expect her to. Subsequent behavior after one very bad fuck up, in addition to what little we know of Cersei pre-marriage,  only reinforces that for me. Robert grew to hate/loathe/fear her over time but he was trying to spend time with her even after that ill-fated night.

The civil part I agree on.

Sleeping with Jamie shows she may have not be committed to being completely faithful(as wives are expected to be) with their hisbands(who aren't held to the same standard as their wives), but she did her duty to her house and marry a man who'd increase its station. In her defense it was a really bad fuck on Robert's part and hurt a plenty; and he never toned down his erratic behavior which makes her look a fool by extension of having been married to the slob. And I'm sorry but  what did Robert ask to do with her exactly? And, there's also the fact he nearly killed her favorite son when he was 3, and occasionally raped her(well it wouldn't be classified as such but still).

I don't think any woman of Cersi's station would feel any warm feelings towards her husband(but that's how most politically arranged marriage go).

But, yes she's always been a psychopath, from nearly genitally mutilatiang her infant brother at 5, getting a girl to lose her eye over a necklace at 9 and  dealing out hideous threats galor. 

And she always was an internalized misogonist, who absolutely hated the fact being a woman even a queen allowed her aspirations to be being a glorified brood mare for a powerful man to begott sons onto. Likely she would hope/or be giddy Robert died while their children were minor even if he was a perfectly normal husband given his context; because that would be her only real power to some real power.

Truth be told, her relationships with people have been toxic from the start.

Her relationship with Jamie has him giving everything to her but it's a very one sided relationship.

Edited by Varysblackfyre321

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On 1/28/2018 at 9:23 AM, Lady Dacey said:

I have a real problem with this idea I've seen repeated frequently around internet. Cersei is vain, selfish, paranoid and even sadistic - true. But she at some point hoped for a loving marriage and Robert was always abusive and disrespectful towards her, before ever giving them a chance to develop a healthy relationship. I'm sure Cersei would never be able to have a healthy relationship with anyone, ever, but Robert wouldn't either... the whoring is not Cersei's fault at all. It's Robert's, and no woman could have stopped it. I mean, if that was the case, why not have a mistress? He didn't want a relationship. 

I think you are misreading the dynamic between Robert and Cersei. Robert was an oaf, a lout, a drunk, and a philanderer. A great warrior and a charming person, but deeply flawed. He never would have remained faithful to Cersei or to anyone else. All true. But Cersei dedicated herself to psychological guerrilla warfare against him from the outset if not before that. Remember, she had her mind set on marrying Rhegar, to the extent of abandoning her close relationship with Jaime. And then Robert killed Rhaegar. And then she was forced to marry Robert.

This match was doomed from the start.

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10 minutes ago, Light a wight tonight said:

I think you are misreading the dynamic between Robert and Cersei. Robert was an oaf, a lout, a drunk, and a philanderer. A great warrior and a charming person, but deeply flawed. He never would have remained faithful to Cersei or to anyone else. All true. But Cersei dedicated herself to psychological guerrilla warfare against him from the outset if not before that. Remember, she had her mind set on marrying Rhegar, to the extent of abandoning her close relationship with Jaime. And then Robert killed Rhaegar. And then she was forced to marry Robert.

This match was doomed from the start.

She was going to be married off eventually; she couldn't stay with Jamie forever and she recognized this; it's not so much abandoning Jamie as much she can't stay with Jamie either way. 

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Given the reason Jaime became a Kingsguard, I think Cersei was very much planning to keep having sex with him after she married Rhaegar.

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20 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

I agree. Even with Jaime, her "love" flickered out quickly once he started behaving in a manner she didn't much care for. Cersei has the tendency to come up with reasons after the fact to justify her hating people.

Well he did refuse to avenge their firstborn and her favorite son when he came back. But she also didn't really wait to go back on the market after he was captured.

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2 hours ago, Geddus said:

Given the reason Jaime became a Kingsguard, I think Cersei was very much planning to keep having sex with him after she married Rhaegar.

Somehow I don't think Rhaegar would've failed to notice his little dragons were all blonde haired, green eyed.

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1 minute ago, Lord Lannister said:

Somehow I don't think Rhaegar would've failed to notice his little dragons were all blonde haired, green eyed.

Well would that really raise alarm? They'd look like they're mother. The Starks with the exception of the Arya look like they're mother. 

 

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10 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

Somehow I don't think Rhaegar would've failed to notice his little dragons were all blonde haired, green eyed.

There would be nothing wrong with that, children can take after their mother. Unless their father has the magic Baratheon gene, but that's not the case with Rhaegar.

Anyway that wasn't the point.

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On 2/2/2018 at 10:49 AM, Universal Sword Donor said:

See I don't. Sleeping with Jaime on the morning of her wedding shows me that she wasn't really committed to marrying Robert, not that I necessarily would expect her to. Subsequent behavior after one very bad fuck up, in addition to what little we know of Cersei pre-marriage,  only reinforces that for me. Robert grew to hate/loathe/fear her over time but he was trying to spend time with her even after that ill-fated night.

The civil part I agree on.

I think part of her hated him because she was married to a pig. Robert constantly cheated on her and that was done in front of her. He taunted jaime constantly and spent the rest of the time in a drunken haze.  Like I said she may have never been the loving wife but she would have played the part to a point rather then the hatred she had for him. Remember she doesn't even love jaime unless he does what she wants so you can't expect her to love anyone besides herself and her children who came from her. However alot of marriages from the old days didn't have love but most had some civility.

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On 2/2/2018 at 0:50 AM, Helena Kyle said:

Robert was doomed to fail from the start.  He only lasted as long as he did because Jon Arryn was running the kingdom.  And Jon did a piss poor job of that.  They started out with a healthy treasure chest and by the end of his reign they owed the Iron Bank and the Lannisters.

See I never understood that. From what we hear about jon arryn he is supposedly a guy like ned stark. Part of me thinks there was alot more going on. Personally I think between robert not doing anything and cersei and members of the small council they allowed so  much corruption to spread it drained the bank more then roberts tournaments

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On 2/1/2018 at 7:13 PM, Varysblackfyre321 said:

True. I mean getting forced to marry and cheated on is the sadly something highborn ladies are groomed since birth to accept; I'm sure if Robert kept his "activities" to discreet she wouldn't feel such resentment for her husband; but he's making her a laughing stock on how brazen he is about it. And the fact he sometimes slumbers in her bed chamber drunk to do his "husbandly duties" 

I love how george showed her hatred though. It was just so intense it made your skin crawl.

Ceriei thoughts in feast

And while you slept I ate your heirs.

That line was just so horrific in how it showed her mindset towards him. Don't get me wrong he deserved it but still....

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9 hours ago, Geddus said:

There would be nothing wrong with that, children can take after their mother. Unless their father has the magic Baratheon gene, but that's not the case with Rhaegar.

Anyway that wasn't the point.

No, he just has the magic Targaryen gene that's dominant over Dornish features.

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10 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said:

No, he just has the magic Targaryen gene that's dominant over Dornish features.

No he didn't. Rhaenya Targaryen looked more Dornish than Targaryen.  

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10 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

No, he just has the magic Targaryen gene that's dominant over Dornish features.

Really? That must be why Rhaenys looked all dornish.

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If Cersei had gotten to marry Rhaegar, like she dreamed about doing since she was a little girl, I think she would have been loyal to him as long as he stayed loyal to her. I also think Jaime would think twice about cuckolding Rhaegar, he seemed to actually respect and like Rhaegar unlike Bob.

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Their father had summoned Cersei to court when she was twelve, hoping to make her a royal marriage. He refused every offer for her hand, preferring to keep her with him in the Tower of the Hand while she grew older and more womanly and ever more beautiful. No doubt he was waiting for Prince Viserys to mature, or perhaps for Rhaegar's wife to die in childbed. Elia of Dome was never the healthiest of women.

Jaime, meantime, had spent four years as squire to Ser Sumner Crakehall and earned his spurs against the Kingswood Brotherhood. But when he made a brief call at King's Landing on his way back to Casterly Rock, chiefly to see his sister, Cersei took him aside and whispered that Lord Tywin meant to marry him to Lysa Tully, had gone so far as to invite Lord Hoster to the city to discuss dower. But if Jaime took the white, he could be near her always. Old Ser Harlan Grandison had died in his sleep, as was only appropriate for one whose sigil was a sleeping lion. Aerys would want a young man to take his place, so why not a roaring lion in place of a sleepy one?

"Father will never consent," Jaime objected.

"The king won't ask him. And once it's done, Father can't object, not openly. Aerys had Ser Ilyn Payne's tongue tom out just for boasting that it was the Hand who truly ruled the Seven Kingdoms. The captain of the Hand's guard, and yet Father dared not try and stop it! He won't stop this, either."

"But," Jaime said, "there's Casterly Rock..."

"Is it a rock you want? Or me?"

He remembered that night as if it were yesterday. They spent it in an old inn on Eel Alley, well away from watchful eyes. Cersei had come to him dressed as a simple serving wench, which somehow excited him all the more. Jaime had never seen her more passionate. Every time he went to sleep, she woke him again. By morning Casterly Rock seemed a small price to pay to be near her always. He gave his consent, and Cersei promised to do the rest.

From ASOS, Jaime II.

Sure sounds like they were planning to keep their affair going. Or at least, Cersei was, Jaime followed her lead as usual.

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