Varysblackfyre321

Was Robert doomed to fail from the start?

82 posts in this topic

18 minutes ago, Geddus said:

Sure sounds like they were planning to keep their affair going. Or at least, Cersei was, Jaime followed her lead as usual

This was after Rhaegar had already married Elia though. Had Cersei been betrothed to Rhaegar by then she might not have cared whether Jaime was in the KG or not. 

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4 hours ago, Geddus said:

Sure sounds like they were planning to keep their affair going.

Does it?

Cersei tells Jaime that's the case, but Cersei never was a stranger to lying and manipulating people. We don't know what's actually Cersei's plan.

Maybe she's telling the truth - and wants Jaime in the capital with her.

Or maybe she is lying. Maybe Cersei sees that dear Dad's plan to marry her into the Targaryens goes tits up - Aerys is going ever more mercurial, Rhaegar already marries and there is no guarantee that either Elia dies or Viserys marries her - and starts her own play. If Cersei isn't going to be a Queen, she can become a Lady of the Rock - if Jaime is eliminated from the roster. As a member of KG, he is out. Unlike male-only Iron Throne, being a Lady Paramount is nothing unprecedented - there was at least one in the Vale. Which means that with Jaime out of the picture and Tyrion in no position to challenge her, Cersei has a real shot at consolation prize. Very sweet prize, actually.

So I wouldn't bet on Cersei planning to keep affair going.

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45 minutes ago, Myrish Lace said:

Does it?

Cersei tells Jaime that's the case, but Cersei never was a stranger to lying and manipulating people. We don't know what's actually Cersei's plan.

Maybe she's telling the truth - and wants Jaime in the capital with her.

Or maybe she is lying. Maybe Cersei sees that dear Dad's plan to marry her into the Targaryens goes tits up - Aerys is going ever more mercurial, Rhaegar already marries and there is no guarantee that either Elia dies or Viserys marries her - and starts her own play. If Cersei isn't going to be a Queen, she can become a Lady of the Rock - if Jaime is eliminated from the roster. As a member of KG, he is out. Unlike male-only Iron Throne, being a Lady Paramount is nothing unprecedented - there was at least one in the Vale. Which means that with Jaime out of the picture and Tyrion in no position to challenge her, Cersei has a real shot at consolation prize. Very sweet prize, actually.

So I wouldn't bet on Cersei planning to keep affair going.

She slept with Jaime on the morning of her wedding. She also kept sleeping with Jaime long after she knew why she shouldn't. They had every intention of continuing the affair.

 

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31 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

She slept with Jaime on the morning of her wedding. She also kept sleeping with Jaime long after she knew why she shouldn't. They had every intention of continuing the affair.

That was one completely unexpected civil war later, when there are massive changes in political landscape. Everything changes, Cersei suddenly becomes a Queen for the new Baratheon King, so her decisions after this climactic event are not very indicative of her plans before the war.

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1 hour ago, Myrish Lace said:

That was one completely unexpected civil war later, when there are massive changes in political landscape. Everything changes, Cersei suddenly becomes a Queen for the new Baratheon King, so her decisions after this climactic event are not very indicative of her plans before the war.

No I meant when they were children and then teenagers. If she has no fear of people discovering she

1) committing incest

2) soiled goods as a potential bride

3) whatever people would find out from it

then I see no reason why the affair wasn't going to continue after she married Robert.

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5 hours ago, Myrish Lace said:

Or maybe she is lying. Maybe Cersei sees that dear Dad's plan to marry her into the Targaryens goes tits up - Aerys is going ever more mercurial, Rhaegar already marries and there is no guarantee that either Elia dies or Viserys marries her - and starts her own play. If Cersei isn't going to be a Queen, she can become a Lady of the Rock - if Jaime is eliminated from the roster. As a member of KG, he is out. Unlike male-only Iron Throne, being a Lady Paramount is nothing unprecedented - there was at least one in the Vale. Which means that with Jaime out of the picture and Tyrion in no position to challenge her, Cersei has a real shot at consolation prize. Very sweet prize, actually.

So I wouldn't bet on Cersei planning to keep affair going.

I think this is too smart for Cersei.

Plus, she doesn't seem to give a damn about Casterly Rock - granted, at the time we got to read her thoughts she wants to rule the entire kingdom, but still.

There's also the fact that she and Jaime did continue their relationship after she became queen, I don't see why they wouldn't have done the same if the king was somebody else. I don't buy for a second that Cersei was in love with Rhaegar, actually I wouldn't buy Cersei being in love with anyone.

Edited by Geddus

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On 2/4/2018 at 5:12 PM, Geddus said:

I think this is too smart for Cersei.

Plus, she doesn't seem to give a damn about Casterly Rock - granted, at the time we got to read her thoughts she wants to rule the entire kingdom, but still.

There's also the fact that she and Jaime did continue their relationship after she became queen, I don't see why they wouldn't have done the same if the king was somebody else. I don't buy for a second that Cersei was in love with Rhaegar, actually I wouldn't buy Cersei being in love with anyone.

Cersei loves Cersei. It’s as simple as that. She loves Jaime because he looks like Cersei.

Edited by Angel Eyes

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2 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Cersei loves Cersei. It’s as simple as that. She loves Jaime because he looks like Cersei.

Yeah exactly, I should have added "but herself" at the end of my post.

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Personally, I'm of the opinion that Bobby B. played himself.

Sure, the love of his life was "kidnapped" and "raped" by the man whose family he deposed, but even then, he had beautiful wife, all his own (to the best of his knowledge). Unfortunately, he cocked that up too.

Then, as if screwing up his marriage wasn't bad enough, he feasted, whored and tourneyed the Seven Kingdoms into debt (screw the LF Debt Scheme theory. The Hand's Tourney purse was ninety thousand gold dragons, in total. That doesn't account for the feasts that took place, which must have cost a fortune. Altogether, we're looking at on-hundred thousand dragons, as a conservative estimate. Now, multiply that by fourteen (because there is no way that Robert held a tourney for Ned's induction into his Small Council, but didn't throw tourneys for himself and, at the very least, "his first born son", if not all his children. So, even if he spent half as much on his own family's celebrations, it still makes it to about 100k per year for 14 years)) and you can see how he might have feasted the realm into ruin.

The moment Robert- a stubborn, willful fool, prone to drinking, whoring and merriment in general, to a dangerous degree- took the throne, the realms, as well as their King, were doomed.

I personally find Cersei to be a far more interesting woman. She's a twenty-first century woman, stuck in a world in the dark ages. I've actually done a character study on her, basically theorizing that she is not mad or power hungry, but rightfully ambitious.

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On 2/1/2018 at 11:50 PM, Helena Kyle said:

Robert was doomed to fail from the start.  He only lasted as long as he did because Jon Arryn was running the kingdom.  And Jon did a piss poor job of that.  They started out with a healthy treasure chest and by the end of his reign they owed the Iron Bank and the Lannisters.

Don't forget the Tyrells... and the lesser Essosi lenders, I guess?

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On February 6, 2018 at 11:28 AM, Angel Eyes said:

Cersei loves Cersei. It’s as simple as that. She loves Jaime because he looks like Cersei.

The Cersi she wants to be-one with a dick and balls rather than just a cunt. An ideal version of what she should be-well used too. Can't help but think his shift in appearance is partially the responsible for the level of hostility they have now. 

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On 04/02/2018 at 4:54 PM, Myrish Lace said:

Does it?

Cersei tells Jaime that's the case, but Cersei never was a stranger to lying and manipulating people. We don't know what's actually Cersei's plan.

Maybe she's telling the truth - and wants Jaime in the capital with her.

Or maybe she is lying. Maybe Cersei sees that dear Dad's plan to marry her into the Targaryens goes tits up - Aerys is going ever more mercurial, Rhaegar already marries and there is no guarantee that either Elia dies or Viserys marries her - and starts her own play. If Cersei isn't going to be a Queen, she can become a Lady of the Rock - if Jaime is eliminated from the roster. As a member of KG, he is out. Unlike male-only Iron Throne, being a Lady Paramount is nothing unprecedented - there was at least one in the Vale. Which means that with Jaime out of the picture and Tyrion in no position to challenge her, Cersei has a real shot at consolation prize. Very sweet prize, actually.

So I wouldn't bet on Cersei planning to keep affair going.

There was an even more recent precedent within her own family - Cerelle Lannister (the first cousin of Cersei’s grandfather Lord Tytos) inherited Casterly Rock in her own right after her father’s premature death (although she soon died, allowing Cersei’s great grandfather Gerold to succeed as Lord of the Rock).

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On 2/7/2018 at 3:42 PM, Jon_Stargaryen said:

I personally find Cersei to be a far more interesting woman. She's a twenty-first century woman, stuck in a world in the dark ages. I've actually done a character study on her, basically theorizing that she is not mad or power hungry, but rightfully ambitious.

Really.  I don't know any ambitious 21st century person who killed innocent children like Barra and tried to kill Gendry.  I thought only bad people killed babies.

I don't excuse any of Roberts behavior and he was a horrible husband but his real kids were innocent. 

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On 2/10/2018 at 4:42 PM, goldenmaps said:

Really.  I don't know any ambitious 21st century person who killed innocent children like Barra and tried to kill Gendry.  I thought only bad people killed babies.

I don't excuse any of Roberts behavior and he was a horrible husband but his real kids were innocent. 

I feel like you missed everything I wrote:

I postulated that she is She's a twenty-first century woman, stuck in a world in the dark ages, meaning that despite her status of birth and ambition, the fact that she is a woman in a patriarchal world will always be held against her.

You can say that she's a terrible person if you like- and to some degree, I will agree with you- but you are leaving out a lot of context:

  • She was raped on a near nightly basis for the first few years of her marriage. Later, she was only raped once a year.
  • The children of bastard Robert represented evidence that he was not the father of her children.

This is not to excuse the murder of children. That is morally reprehensible (though it's never concretely stated that she murdered the children/all we have is Tyrion's thoughts and Varys' whispers).

I'm just providing a rebuttal to a post that was taken out of context.

 

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I actually wanted to make a thread about this. Robert succeeded with a rebellion and won a crown. He ruled for 15 years.By all standards, he won the game of thrones.  And yet he was dispatched and his throne taken by others (this applies to Jon Arryn too). So is it actually possible to win the game of thrones? Does "you either win or you die" really apply?

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Robert's reign was not a failure, he chose a good Hand who made all the necessary decisions for him. We meet Robert in AGOT only after Jon Arryn's death so we do not have a direct insight into Robert's pre-Jonsdeath reign.But judging from the fact that he managed to hold the IT for 15 years without major conflicts, I wouldn't call it a failure. Ned was not fit for the Hand's position. In some way, Robert's death is a product of Ned's inability to judge people correctly. Ironically, Robert's only mistake was choosing Ned for his Hand. 

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32 minutes ago, Giants Nemesis said:

Robert's reign was not a failure, he chose a good Hand who made all the necessary decisions for him. We meet Robert in AGOT only after Jon Arryn's death so we do not have a direct insight into Robert's pre-Jonsdeath reign.But judging from the fact that he managed to hold the IT for 15 years without major conflicts, I wouldn't call it a failure. Ned was not fit for the Hand's position. In some way, Robert's death is a product of Ned's inability to judge people correctly. Ironically, Robert's only mistake was choosing Ned for his Hand. 

I will have to argue with some of your points.  The Greyjoys rebelled.  That was a major conflict.  Dorne was technically in rebellion.  King Viserys III was still alive and living across the Narrow Sea.  People still called Robert the Usurper behind his back.  It is hard to undo the legacy of three centuries of Targaryen rule.

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Robert dealt with the Greyjoy Rebellion. I would call that a success. Who could possibly be able to stop Balon from proclaiming himself a king? :)

Viserys was not a major threath for Robert, Danny was. Robert was unaware of that, but the instant he hears about her marriage to Khal Drogo he wants to kill her and her child. I suppose one would call that a reasonable decision for a medieval apsolutist monarch wishing to retain its position. 

Dorne never openly rebelled and did not harm Robert in any way.

When speaking in terms of failure, I can't agree on pinching the term to the ruler who did not bring misery to his subjects nor was defeated by his political opponents ("I love you, Ned and Lyanna-moto" was his flaw). Although, because of her later position, one could name Cersei his political oponent as well, certainly the unexpected one. But, the king outsmarted only by his lady queen is not a failure. 

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3 hours ago, Giants Nemesis said:

Robert dealt with the Greyjoy Rebellion. I would call that a success. Who could possibly be able to stop Balon from proclaiming himself a king? :)

Viserys was not a major threath for Robert, Danny was. Robert was unaware of that, but the instant he hears about her marriage to Khal Drogo he wants to kill her and her child. I suppose one would call that a reasonable decision for a medieval apsolutist monarch wishing to retain its position. 

Dorne never openly rebelled and did not harm Robert in any way.

When speaking in terms of failure, I can't agree on pinching the term to the ruler who did not bring misery to his subjects nor was defeated by his political opponents ("I love you, Ned and Lyanna-moto" was his flaw). Although, because of her later position, one could name Cersei his political oponent as well, certainly the unexpected one. But, the king outsmarted only by his lady queen is not a failure. 

So why was Viserys more of a threat than Daenerys? Westeros is an heir club for men.

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3 hours ago, Giants Nemesis said:

Robert dealt with the Greyjoy Rebellion. I would call that a success. Who could possibly be able to stop Balon from proclaiming himself a king? :)

Viserys was not a major threath for Robert, Danny was. Robert was unaware of that, but the instant he hears about her marriage to Khal Drogo he wants to kill her and her child. I suppose one would call that a reasonable decision for a medieval apsolutist monarch wishing to retain its position. 

Dorne never openly rebelled and did not harm Robert in any way.

When speaking in terms of failure, I can't agree on pinching the term to the ruler who did not bring misery to his subjects nor was defeated by his political opponents ("I love you, Ned and Lyanna-moto" was his flaw). Although, because of her later position, one could name Cersei his political oponent as well, certainly the unexpected one. But, the king outsmarted only by his lady queen is not a failure. 

He single handley bankrupted the entire kingdom.

And he allowed Joffery as he is to remain his heir.

Edited by Varysblackfyre321

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