Brienne's Honor in Pennytree

[kissdbyfire]

6 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Yah, it's quite a fast moving discussion isn't it?   Make you a deal--how about you take a look at the findings of our "timeline" and jump in right where you feel pertinent?   

The biggest surprise to me was the location of the BWB--it's far closer to Pennytree than I anticipated.   Seems to me there is a lot of wasted time in those 5 days between Brienne's trial and finding Jamie.  

Yes, I agree, LSH and the BwB (or those BwB members who are w/ her) seem to be much nearer Pennytree than I thought... which means they're also nearer RR than I thought. Does this mean RR is their next target, so to speak? I tend to think it is, I think the wedding (Devan Lannister w/ a Frey woman) has the potential to be a bloodbath. But then again, w/ this being Martin, is their location a sort of red herring? They're near RR, but won't go there at all? Stuffed if I know. All the timeline issues really do my head in, especially w/ Martin saying,"put down the ruler and stopwatch and enjoy the story". 

There are soooooo many posts I want to reply to, and I don't think I'll have the time to properly reply to all of them... but off the top of my head (totes unreliable) I wanted to say to @TheThreeEyedCow, I really enjoyed your post a page back or so (?), and I agree that Brienne touching the hilt of her hero sword when she is taken to Jaime is important. My take on it is similar to yours (or what I understood from your post)... I feel she is conflicted, but not about her vow to Jaime. Rather, I think she is conflicted b/c she knows she is telling a lie. And touching the hilt of the sword is a way for her to reassure herself that the lie is necessary... she needs to lie to Jaime to keep her vow to him. Yeah, I know, it may not make much sense when I put it like this, but it makes perfect sense in my mind.

And @LynnS, always bringing up intriguing and intelligent things for us to discuss! Love the FM connection you made there! I didn't see how similar the descriptions were, went straight over my head. I was thinking about all you said regarding a possible FM presence and the one thing that kept coming back to me was, if this bloke is a FM and they have taken an interest on what's going on in the Riverlands and the North, it would be to stop whatever the hell is going on there w/ all the dead people coming back to life... after all, all men must die, and to be a reanimated rotting corpse strikes me as something they'd be very opposed to...

I really need to go back and reread all the posts, b/c I may have missed a thing or 12, so apologies if I'm talking out of my arse here.

@Nittanian, than you for that quote, I didn't remember that scene! And I agree, w/ that now in mind I think it's likely that Jeyne was hidden from view at the Twins and not Barrowtown. 

 

 

[Wizz-The-Smith]

On ‎30‎/‎12‎/‎2017 at 10:47 AM, kissdbyfire said:

I also think Jaime may end up leading the BwB...

Hi kissdbyfire   

Just a quick post to say I like your thinking. 

[kissdbyfire]

12 minutes ago, Wizz-The-Smith said:

Hi kissdbyfire   

Just a quick post to say I like your thinking. 

Hey you, long time no see! I'm glad you like my mental idea!

 

 

[Curled Finger]

17 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

And @LynnS, always bringing up intriguing and intelligent things for us to discuss! Love the FM connection you made there! I didn't see how similar the descriptions were, went straight over my head. I was thinking about all you said regarding a possible FM presence and the one thing that kept coming back to me was, if this bloke is a FM and they have taken an interest on what's going on in the Riverlands and the North, it would be to stop whatever the hell is going on there w/ all the dead people coming back to life... after all, all men must die, and to be a reanimated rotting corpse strikes me as something they'd be very opposed to...

I really need to go back and reread all the posts, b/c I may have missed a thing or 12, so apologies if I'm talking out of my arse here.

@Nittanian, than you for that quote, I didn't remember that scene! And I agree, w/ that now in mind I think it's likely that Jeyne was hidden from view at the Twins and not Barrowtown. 

 

 

Great tying the Faceless Men and BWB together with the words of House Black & White.   Good job.  Never worry, we seem to meander through all things in this one.   I'm so impressed with the 1st time posters who have brought their thoughts and some damned fine arguments for their positions.  

Yah, that @Nittanian had my post of the day!  

[Curled Finger]

14 minutes ago, Wizz-The-Smith said:

Hi kissdbyfire   

Just a quick post to say I like your thinking. 

A real honest to goodness Riverlands Webber among us!   Wizz it's great to see you.   Looking so forward to your thoughts here.   Our @kissdbyfire does a great job.   She's been with us from the start, so my hat is totally off to her here for keeping things going.   (and keeping me straight because alas! that is a full time job by itself!)  

[Wizz-The-Smith]

9 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Hey you, long time no see! I'm glad you like my mental idea!

Haha, a Riverlands topic hosted by @Curled Finger has seen me emerge from my hollow hill hideout. 

And maybe not so mental an idea, I had the same thought when discussing the topic in the RL's Web.  Or perhaps we're both mental.   

[kissdbyfire]

2 minutes ago, Wizz-The-Smith said:

Haha, a Riverlands topic hosted by @Curled Finger has seen me emerge from my hollow hill hideout. 

And maybe not so mental an idea, I had the same thought when discussing the topic in the RL's Web.  Or perhaps we're both mental.   

I'm always at my happiest when I'm in such fine company!

And any topic hosted by our friend @Curled Finger is a topic I'll wanna participate in!

[Wizz-The-Smith]

29 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

A real honest to goodness Riverlands Webber among us!   Wizz it's great to see you.   Looking so forward to your thoughts here

Thanks, it's great to post with you guys and gals.  This is such a juicy subject and I look forward to catching up and discussing the topic further.  And it's always good to post with an old friend from the Web. 

33 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

 Our @kissdbyfire does a great job.

Why of course, Bloodraven's #1 groupie has greenseer like insights, a thousand eyes and one for sure. 

36 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

 (and keeping me straight because alas! that is a full time job by itself!)  

Haha, I reckon you do alright    And it must be said that you are a great host, such a friendly thread with some great chat, great work!   

[Wizz-The-Smith]

9 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I'm always at my happiest when I'm in such fine company!

And any topic hosted by our friend @Curled Finger is a topic I'll wanna participate in!

Ha, the feeling's mutual.  I'll drink to that. 

And yes, @Curled Finger is a joy to post with, and leads the way when it comes to hosting a thread.   

[Curled Finger]

15 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I'm always at my happiest when I'm in such fine company!

And any topic hosted by our friend @Curled Finger is a topic I'll wanna participate in!

 

6 minutes ago, Wizz-The-Smith said:

Thanks, it's great to post with you guys and gals.  This is such a juicy subject and I look forward to catching up and discussing the topic further.  And it's always good to post with an old friend from the Web. 

Why of course, Bloodraven's #1 groupie has greenseer like insights, a thousand eyes and one for sure. 

Haha, I reckon you do alright    And it must be said that you are a great host, such a friendly thread with some great chat, great work!   

Ah geez...it's easy to host a topic with so many really good cohosts.   But that's it, I forgot kissdbyfire's greensight insight--no more posting in my underwear.  

[kissdbyfire]

6 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

 

Ah geez...it's easy to host a topic with so many really good cohosts.   But that's it, I forgot kissdbyfire's greensight insight--no more posting in my underwear.  

But dear, now it's much too late for that!

 

[Curled Finger]

2 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

But dear, now it's much too late for that!

 

Hehehehehehe that's just not right.  

[Cridefea]

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

Rather, I think she is conflicted b/c she knows she is telling a lie. And touching the hilt of the sword is a way for her to reassure herself that the lie is necessary...

 I think this is the reason for touching the hilt: she touches Oathkeeper every time she wants to reassure herself. 

1 hour ago, Wizz-The-Smith said:

Hey there @Curled Finger I hope you're well, and thanks for an awesome thread. 

I am late to the party and still have to catch up, so forgive me if I am repeating things already covered here, but I thought I would jump in and give my two dragons worth.  

Some things that jumped out at me when reading the first page are as follows.........

Is Brienne lying?  IMO yes.......But I think it is out of necessity due to her precarious situation.  The last time we saw her she was being hanged by the BWB after discussing her ties with Jaime and how he is a reformed character with the aim of finding the Stark girls etc.  The BWB and LSH were very suspicious and not at all happy!  Would they simply let her walk away?  I personally don't think so.  She is in a tonne of trouble, she has a Lannister sword and they don't trust her, plus she's also looking out for Pod [who is probably still their hostage]

The BWB and the river lords are watching Jaime at RR with a load of spies and schemes in action.  They would love to get him alone/speak to him/use him/kill him etc......So how best to do this?  It seems to me it wouldn't escape their attention that having taken Brienne, she is the tool they need to best do this via some sort of communication.  However, they can't just send her to rock up at RR, Jaime is surrounded by his army and advisors, they need to box clever.  If only there was a way to isolate Jaime and make this potential meeting easier........well I think that's exactly what they've done.

Lords Piper & Vance have been helping the Beric & co/BWB since AGOT, and the Vance maester is a confirmed BWB spy, and the Brotherhood can communicate with these river lords even though they're at RR.  Whether it be Tom, the whores or signal fires, I think there was a plan made to isolate Jaime away from RR so Brienne could speak to him and lure him to LSH.  Notice how in this bit of text Karyl Vance manipulates Jaime's actions and convinces him to leave the relative safety of RR to attend the siege at Raventree with a far smaller retinue, therefore weakening his position......... 

Once Jaime has sorted out the siege at Raventree he confirms that he is headed back to Riverrun......

 

I found it odd that Tytos wanted absolute confirmation of Jaime's movements [maybe he was just curious?]  But again this gives the river lords and BWB confirmation of his exact destination/path/position in the RL's with spies and informants everywhere.  Then suddenly Brienne appears and just happens to be in this same area looking for the man that the BWB know to be with a smaller retinue.  I don't think it's a coincidence that the one person Jaime would trust/listen to found him so easily, and this one person has the ability to convince Jaime that's it a good idea to leave his men and hostages. 

With Jaime holding hostages and making it very clear to Tytos that any BWB colluding or meddling would result in Hoster losing his head [the same can be said for the other hostages] any scheming/plan would have to be executed with great care.  The only way I see this being avoided while still putting plans into action is to remove Jaime from the position of power enabling him to make such a call.  Using Brienne to separate Jaime from his men is the only way to ensure relative safety for the hostages while still scheming, he's the only one who would make the call to behead hostages, his men wouldn't dare kill one of the river lords flesh and blood when the siege of RR seems to have come to a fruitful conclusion.      

So yes I think Brienne is lying, but it's the only way she can get out of the sticky situation she finds herself in.  Do I think she's betraying Jaime?  No.  I reckon she is hoping for a solution to this problem and to perhaps convince the sceptical LSH and crew that he is a changed man and that she is working with him to find the Stark girls.  But essentially she has no choice, I think it's a case of help the BWB with their plans to get to Jaime or hang. 

As for the girls and the time line......Arya is in Braavos, so it can't be her.  Sansa is in the Vale, has been in the Vale for ages with many eyes on her movements, and is seemingly set to stay in the Vale for a while yet as the Tourney is yet to happen and there is a wedding on the horizon.  Surely her leaving the Vale would be a strange turn of events.  But it's the only line Brienne can use to entice Jaime away.

@Lady Dacey made a good point up thread about Ned saying 'not all lies are without honour', I feel this is one of those occasions whereby it's impossible to say Brienne lacks honour because she is lying, she has no choice and is probably praying Jaime will come to understand once things play out, and praying there can be a somewhat positive outcome to this most precarious of situations.

This topic is so complex I am probably [definitely] missing some info in my thoughts/explanation, George has spun a detailed 'Web' in the RL's and everything seems to be linked at some level.  But basically I think Brienne is having her hand forced, is being watched, and is hoping to dodge a crossbow. 

I shall catch up with the thread asap, and hope to contribute further to the chat.  I love everything Riverlands!! 

Wow, I didn't know there was a "web" in RLs, but yes it makes a lot of sense now that I think about it. Great post! I have to re-read some chapters. Poor Jaime.

If the timeline is correct it would be interesting also know what is happening to the camp.

As for Brienne lying etc., that's my idea as well.

 

[kissdbyfire]

1 minute ago, Curled Finger said:

Hehehehehehe that's just not right.  

I know... just couldn't resist! 

[Wizz-The-Smith]

8 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Ah geez...it's easy to host a topic with so many really good cohosts.   But that's it, I forgot kissdbyfire's greensight insight--no more posting in my underwear.  

Lol! 

Slight curveball, but did you notice the allusions to Dunk in that scene? [one of the most honourable characters in the whole series]  Brienne is almost certainly a descendant of Dunk's and of course he squired for Arlan of Pennytree.  It's a cool parallel, Brienne [Dunk] at [Arlan] Pennytree and just to put a cherry on top there is a seven foot squire present in Hos.  All very cool [sorry for the digression but I love that]   

[Curled Finger]

29 minutes ago, Cridefea said:

 I think this is the reason for touching the hilt: she touches Oathkeeper every time she wants to reassure herself. 

Wow, I didn't know there was a "web" in RLs, but yes it makes a lot of sense now that I think about it. Great post! I have to re-read some chapters. Poor Jaime.

If the timeline is correct it would be interesting also know what is happening to the camp.

As for Brienne lying etc., that's my idea as well.

 

Riverlands Web is a forum gang of theorists.  You can search back for their wonderful conversations.   Lots of fun.  However, Wizz can correct me, but I think the name of the group relates to the web of intrigue in the Riverlands as well.   

[Curled Finger]

25 minutes ago, Wizz-The-Smith said:

Lol! 

Slight curveball, but did you notice the allusions to Dunk in that scene? [one of the most honourable characters in the whole series]  Brienne is almost certainly a descendant of Dunk's and of course he squired for Arlan of Pennytree.  It's a cool parallel, Brienne [Dunk] at [Arlan] Pennytree and just to put a cherry on top there is a seven foot squire present in Hos.  All very cool [sorry for the digression but I love that]   

It's brilliant, actually.   I completely forgot about Dunk in relation to both Pennytree and Brienne.   This is a thing we should probably all keep in mind.   I'm working my way backwards! 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

@Curled Finger what a juicy topic! Your thread is on fire my friend. I can barely keep up! It's such a joy to be in such good company discussing things with all these much-smarter-than-me folk. Some of the things you guys catch is amazing to me. 

@LynnS the FM connection! You are extraordinary! I was reading that thinking along the lines of our magnificent host here. The Red God will have his due right? What are Beric & UnCat being resurrected if not deaths being stolen from the many faced God? Perhaps the FM intend to put an end to all this coming back to life nonsense. 

Also with Lem wearing Sandors helm & becoming more vicious. This is what I'm talking about. I feel like I'm fairly well learned on aSoIaF until someone comes up with something like that! Great stuff. 

So 5 days Brienne is with BwB doing Lord knows what before approaching Jaime. I tend to agree with the poster (again I apologize I don't know who it was)  that had the fine post about the BwB pretty much guiding Jaime to pennytree with a smaller retinue. Likely Brienne was waiting until everything was in place before approaching him. 

Now here's my conundrum: A half truth or a lie I think we all mostly agree Brienne is not betraying Jaime so my question is why this particular lie? Is there any significance to Brienne saying the Hound has the girl & will kill her if Jaime doesn't come? Is this some way for Brienne to show LSH - look One-handed Jaime is coming to fight The Hound  to save Sansa! How could you doubt his honor & loyalty? Is it some sort of code Brienne is trying to warn Jaime with? Is it merely the lie the BwB came up with & told her to tell? 

So many questions!

 

[kissdbyfire]

1 hour ago, Wizz-The-Smith said:

Hey there @Curled Finger I hope you're well, and thanks for an awesome thread. 

I am late to the party and still have to catch up, so forgive me if I am repeating things already covered here, but I thought I would jump in and give my two dragons worth.  

Some things that jumped out at me when reading the first page are as follows.........

Is Brienne lying?  IMO yes.......But I think it is out of necessity due to her precarious situation.  The last time we saw her she was being hanged by the BWB after discussing her ties with Jaime and how he is a reformed character with the aim of finding the Stark girls etc.  The BWB and LSH were very suspicious and not at all happy!  Would they simply let her walk away?  I personally don't think so.  She is in a tonne of trouble, she has a Lannister sword and they don't trust her, plus she's also looking out for Pod [who is probably still their hostage]

Agreed. Doesn't Stoneheart know Oathkeeper is in part Ice? I may be making this up, happens a lot. 

And I definitely think Pod's welfare and survival - and to a lesser extent Hunt's - are Brienne's main motivations in going along w/ whatever plan the BwB has... 

I also think that Brienne has realised already that Stoneheart is not Catelyn, and she cannot hope to keep her oath to Cat w/o seriously harming Jaime - either by her own hands or by luring him into a trap and delivering him to LSH to be killed.

There. Is. No. Way. Brienne. Will. Do. This. (Imo)

1 hour ago, Wizz-The-Smith said:

The BWB and the river lords are watching Jaime at RR with a load of spies and schemes in action.  They would love to get him alone/speak to him/use him/kill him etc......So how best to do this?  It seems to me it wouldn't escape their attention that having taken Brienne, she is the tool they need to best do this via some sort of communication.  However, they can't just send her to rock up at RR, Jaime is surrounded by his army and advisors, they need to box clever.  If only there was a way to isolate Jaime and make this potential meeting easier........well I think that's exactly what they've done.

Lords Piper & Vance have been helping the Beric & co/BWB since AGOT, and the Vance maester is a confirmed BWB spy, and the Brotherhood can communicate with these river lords even though they're at RR.  Whether it be Tom, the whores or signal fires, I think there was a plan made to isolate Jaime away from RR so Brienne could speak to him and lure him to LSH.  Notice how in this bit of text Karyl Vance manipulates Jaime's actions and convinces him to leave the relative safety of RR to attend the siege at Raventree with a far smaller retinue, therefore weakening his position......... 

Once Jaime has sorted out the siege at Raventree he confirms that he is headed back to Riverrun......

Oh thank you! That's a great quote, and another important bit I had no recollection of...

I have long thought that most of the RL smallfolk support the BwB; some more actively, some more passively. I really like that some of its lords are in on it as well. 

1 hour ago, Wizz-The-Smith said:

 

I found it odd that Tytos wanted absolute confirmation of Jaime's movements [maybe he was just curious?]  But again this gives the river lords and BWB confirmation of his exact destination/path/position in the RL's with spies and informants everywhere.  Then suddenly Brienne appears and just happens to be in this same area looking for the man that the BWB know to be with a smaller retinue.  I don't think it's a coincidence that the one person Jaime would trust/listen to found him so easily, and this one person has the ability to convince Jaime that's it a good idea to leave his men and hostages. 

Ooops, should have broken here not one paragraph before! 

1 hour ago, Wizz-The-Smith said:

So yes I think Brienne is lying, but it's the only way she can get out of the sticky situation she finds herself in.  Do I think she's betraying Jaime?  No.  I reckon she is hoping for a solution to this problem and to perhaps convince the sceptical LSH and crew that he is a changed man and that she is working with him to find the Stark girls.  But essentially she has no choice, I think it's a case of help the BWB with their plans to get to Jaime or hang. 

Damn, did I accidentally delete a whole paragraph now?

But while I think some details may play out differently, I agree w/ the gist here. And you're spot on on Brienne having no choice but help the BwB or hanging and seeing Pod and Hunt die too. That's been confirmed by Martin at a con a few years back.  

1 hour ago, Wizz-The-Smith said:

As for the girls and the time line......Arya is in Braavos, so it can't be her.  Sansa is in the Vale, has been in the Vale for ages with many eyes on her movements, and is seemingly set to stay in the Vale for a while yet as the Tourney is yet to happen and there is a wedding on the horizon.  Surely her leaving the Vale would be a strange turn of events.  But it's the only line Brienne can use to entice Jaime away.

@Lady Dacey made a good point up thread about Ned saying 'not all lies are without honour', I feel this is one of those occasions whereby it's impossible to say Brienne lacks honour because she is lying, she has no choice and is probably praying Jaime will come to understand once things play out, and praying there can be a somewhat positive outcome to this most precarious of situations.

This is so so important... "not all lies are w/o honour", damn right. Fits perfectly w/ vows are not supposed to be followed blindly, or the short version, "words are wind". Talking the talk is easy, but gimme characters who will walk the walk.

 

1 hour ago, Wizz-The-Smith said:

This topic is so complex I am probably [definitely] missing some info in my thoughts/explanation, George has spun a detailed 'Web' in the RL's and everything seems to be linked at some level.  But basically I think Brienne is having her hand forced, is being watched, and is hoping to dodge a crossbow. 

I shall catch up with the thread asap, and hope to contribute further to the chat.  I love everything Riverlands!! 

So complex, there are so many details and characters, and possibilities... I really can't wait to see what will happen, and how!

 

[Wizz-The-Smith]

22 minutes ago, Cridefea said:

 I think this is the reason for touching the hilt: she touches Oathkeeper every time she wants to reassure herself. 

Wow, I didn't know there was a "web" in RLs, but yes it makes a lot of sense now that I think about it. Great post! I have to re-read some chapters. Poor Jaime.

If the timeline is correct it would be interesting also know what is happening to the camp.

As for Brienne lying etc., that's my idea as well.

Hi Cridefea! 

Yes, the events surrounding Jaime and the 'Web' in the RL's are one of my favourite subjects.  I shall have to formulate the necessary quotes etc. to paint the full picture, but it is all very suspicious and points to Jaime being played like Tom 'o' Sevens fiddle.  Once he is isolated and at Raventree [via Vance/river lord trickery] he even thinks to himself that it is a poor attempt at a siege, very few men, no trebuchets etc... It's almost as if the siege was a ruse!!  There were whores present [Hildy] just as there are whores present at RR [all of whom are spies] his future movements are of particular interest [making sure they know where he is] and all the while the time line seems to fit in that we don't see Brienne for ages after her [almost] hanging, enough time for LSH and the BWB to formulate a cunning plan.  It certainly fits.

I shall gather the quotes and post soon, I think George has been setting up this complex RL's scheming throughout the entirety of the RL's arc.  Many people think Jaime is showing great leadership at the second RR siege, which may be true, but I think the river lords and the BWB have been playing Jaime the whole time.  As you say, poor Jaime.    Awesome writing/set up though. [if correct]