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Brienne's Honor in Pennytree


Curled Finger

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I think this topic became much more interesting than just brienne's honnor.

It evolved in a very interisting discussion about the BwB as a whole, its members, its end game and what role jamie and brienne might come to play.

Very interesting!

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8 minutes ago, Wizz-The-Smith said:

Damn it, I have to go to bed.  :mellow:

I shall return tomorrow to continue the great chat.

WiZZzzzzz  -_-

Me too! I want 48 hour days!!! 

5 minutes ago, RedGrace that was promised said:

Does this thread have any connection with Brienne's possible ancestor  Dunk and Arlan of Pennytree?

Not possible, comfirmed by the man himself:

https://nerdist.com/george-r-r-martin-said-brienne-of-tarth-is-the-descendant-of-legendary-knight-ser-duncan-the-tall-game-of-thrones/

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2 hours ago, Wizz-The-Smith said:

Hey there @Curled Finger I hope you're well, and thanks for an awesome thread.  :D

I am late to the party and still have to catch up, so forgive me if I am repeating things already covered here, but I thought I would jump in and give my two dragons worth. :P 

Some things that jumped out at me when reading the first page are as follows.........

Is Brienne lying?  IMO yes.......But I think it is out of necessity due to her precarious situation.  The last time we saw her she was being hanged by the BWB after discussing her ties with Jaime and how he is a reformed character with the aim of finding the Stark girls etc.  The BWB and LSH were very suspicious and not at all happy!  Would they simply let her walk away?  I personally don't think so.  She is in a tonne of trouble, she has a Lannister sword and they don't trust her, plus she's also looking out for Pod [who is probably still their hostage]

The BWB and the river lords are watching Jaime at RR with a load of spies and schemes in action.  They would love to get him alone/speak to him/use him/kill him etc......So how best to do this?  It seems to me it wouldn't escape their attention that having taken Brienne, she is the tool they need to best do this via some sort of communication.  However, they can't just send her to rock up at RR, Jaime is surrounded by his army and advisors, they need to box clever.  If only there was a way to isolate Jaime and make this potential meeting easier........well I think that's exactly what they've done.

Lords Piper & Vance have been helping the Beric & co/BWB since AGOT, and the Vance maester is a confirmed BWB spy, and the Brotherhood can communicate with these river lords even though they're at RR.  Whether it be Tom, the whores or signal fires, I think there was a plan made to isolate Jaime away from RR so Brienne could speak to him and lure him to LSH.  Notice how in this bit of text Karyl Vance manipulates Jaime's actions and convinces him to leave the relative safety of RR to attend the siege at Raventree with a far smaller retinue, therefore weakening his position......... 

Once Jaime has sorted out the siege at Raventree he confirms that he is headed back to Riverrun......

 

I found it odd that Tytos wanted absolute confirmation of Jaime's movements [maybe he was just curious?]  But again this gives the river lords and BWB confirmation of his exact destination/path/position in the RL's with spies and informants everywhere.  Then suddenly Brienne appears and just happens to be in this same area looking for the man that the BWB know to be with a smaller retinue.  I don't think it's a coincidence that the one person Jaime would trust/listen to found him so easily, and this one person has the ability to convince Jaime that's it a good idea to leave his men and hostages. 

With Jaime holding hostages and making it very clear to Tytos that any BWB colluding or meddling would result in Hoster losing his head [the same can be said for the other hostages] any scheming/plan would have to be executed with great care.  The only way I see this being avoided while still putting plans into action is to remove Jaime from the position of power enabling him to make such a call.  Using Brienne to separate Jaime from his men is the only way to ensure relative safety for the hostages while still scheming, he's the only one who would make the call to behead hostages, his men wouldn't dare kill one of the river lords flesh and blood when the siege of RR seems to have come to a fruitful conclusion.      

So yes I think Brienne is lying, but it's the only way she can get out of the sticky situation she finds herself in.  Do I think she's betraying Jaime?  No.  I reckon she is hoping for a solution to this problem and to perhaps convince the sceptical LSH and crew that he is a changed man and that she is working with him to find the Stark girls.  But essentially she has no choice, I think it's a case of help the BWB with their plans to get to Jaime or hang. 

As for the girls and the time line......Arya is in Braavos, so it can't be her.  Sansa is in the Vale, has been in the Vale for ages with many eyes on her movements, and is seemingly set to stay in the Vale for a while yet as the Tourney is yet to happen and there is a wedding on the horizon.  Surely her leaving the Vale would be a strange turn of events.  But it's the only line Brienne can use to entice Jaime away.

@Lady Dacey made a good point up thread about Ned saying 'not all lies are without honour', I feel this is one of those occasions whereby it's impossible to say Brienne lacks honour because she is lying, she has no choice and is probably praying Jaime will come to understand once things play out, and praying there can be a somewhat positive outcome to this most precarious of situations.

This topic is so complex I am probably [definitely] missing some info in my thoughts/explanation, George has spun a detailed 'Web' in the RL's and everything seems to be linked at some level.  But basically I think Brienne is having her hand forced, is being watched, and is hoping to dodge a crossbow.  :P

I shall catch up with the thread asap, and hope to contribute further to the chat.  I love everything Riverlands!!  :)

I was looking for something to wear.   Sorry I missed the whole post in my joy at having you here.  Let me try to organize my thoughts because I do have ulterior motives here...

1.  Do you think Brienne came up with the lie or did her captors script it for her?  I think this is probably where we can determine exactly what the hilt touching was supposed to indicate.   Do you think they have any inclination that Oathkeeper is in fact an incarnation of Ice?  Would it matter?  

2.  Do you think the River Lords or small folk know that Brienne and Jamie have a relationship or is this a trap of convenience.   Maybe they planned something for Jamie but Brienne came along so that changed the plan? 

3.  Jamie does appear to have been isolated.   I have been trying to recall the name of the young Piper man with Jamie.   I was thinking perhaps he was a spy, but you've given a lot of clarity to the Piper/Vance connection.  I no doubt owe an apology to @divica for screwing this character up with another.  

4. Tytos also appeared to be delaying Jamie in the offer of supper.  Do you think Jamie's kindness (it was not insignificant kindness) to Tytos will have any impact on how Jamie is perceived or handled? 

5.  Ah yes hostages.  We've got the Tully/Westerling party.   We've got the Red Wedding hostages to be released at Jamie's command and I completely forgot Jamie's personal hostages.  So what happens to Jamie's hostages now?  We should expect some tale to be told by Jamie's men and those hostages.  Hos is an intelligent young man.   Is it possible he was instructed to take Jamie to Pennytree? 

6.  It's been my feeling that Brienne is hoping Jamie will come up with a solution.  Man this drives me nuts! 

On the subject off the subject because it's another thing that drives me nuts:  Do you make anything of both Robb and Jeyne's crowns becoming so prevalent in the last 2 Jamie chapters? Also, what do you make of Cersei and/or Kevan having no word of Jamie 3 weeks after he's disappeared?   I have a mental tabulation of possible reasons going.  

Great post Wizz.   You always challenge me to dig a little deeper in order to understand.  Feel free to jump in anywhere.  

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12 minutes ago, divica said:

I think this topic became much more interesting than just brienne's honnor.

It evolved in a very interisting discussion about the BwB as a whole, its members, its end game and what role jamie and brienne might come to play.

Very interesting!

Thanks in no small part to your many contributions, challenges and insights.  You've been a wonderful cohost here, divica.  

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36 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

@Curled Finger what a juicy topic! Your thread is on fire my friend. I can barely keep up! It's such a joy to be in such good company discussing things with all these much-smarter-than-me folk. Some of the things you guys catch is amazing to me. 

@LynnS the FM connection! You are extraordinary! I was reading that thinking along the lines of our magnificent host here. The Red God will have his due right? What are Beric & UnCat being resurrected if not deaths being stolen from the many faced God? Perhaps the FM intend to put an end to all this coming back to life nonsense. 

Also with Lem wearing Sandors helm & becoming more vicious. This is what I'm talking about. I feel like I'm fairly well learned on aSoIaF until someone comes up with something like that! Great stuff. 

So 5 days Brienne is with BwB doing Lord knows what before approaching Jaime. I tend to agree with the poster (again I apologize I don't know who it was) :dunce: that had the fine post about the BwB pretty much guiding Jaime to pennytree with a smaller retinue. Likely Brienne was waiting until everything was in place before approaching him. 

Now here's my conundrum: A half truth or a lie I think we all mostly agree Brienne is not betraying Jaime so my question is why this particular lie? Is there any significance to Brienne saying the Hound has the girl & will kill her if Jaime doesn't come? Is this some way for Brienne to show LSH - look One-handed Jaime is coming to fight The Hound  to save Sansa! How could you doubt his honor & loyalty? Is it some sort of code Brienne is trying to warn Jaime with? Is it merely the lie the BwB came up with & told her to tell? 

So many questions!

 

Ah Lyanna, you remind me of myself.   Just sitting here at their knees, begging for another story.  Still, you don't do yourself credit.  You've brought a lot to this table and I'm grateful to have your thoughts and hospitality.   I'm fixing to return to work after a 2.5 month absence (surgery-ick) and I won't be here all day to be fascinated by everything that pops up.  You've been a great co-host here.  I'm so pleased to make your acquaintance and share this wonder with you.  

I'm beginning to think of @LynnSlike a favorite professor.  Isn't the Faceless connection wonderful?  The god will have his due was the perfect way to cap that idea.  The hound's helm comparison to a face was the clincher for me.   It's a really new idea that I hope we can dig deep into.  So poor LynnS can explain it all in detail!   (An idea that unique really does deserve it's own topic, but I feel like we won something having it right here)  I love new.   The post you're thinking of wasn't that far back.   I feel like I'm name dropping and I don't mean to.   It was eye opening to me as well.   Jamie is being played so well here.  We forget or don't even recognize how deep the BWB network goes.  I think LSH & gang were waiting specifically for Jamie to be isolated so they could nab him.   Hopefully Brienne used some of that time to make an impression on Thoros.   I still think he may be someone's salvation here. 

Your conundrum is the same that prompted me to start this topic that I honestly expect to fizzle.  If Brienne is lying why THAT lie?  It's safe to assume no one can hear what she says to Jamie.  Could he really be relied upon to abandon his duties to save "the girl"?  Obviously he can and I hope that's part of the game here.  I hope it is a story the BWB knows Jamie is being told.  I actually hope it's their story.  If so, it might be safe to assume Jamie has passed a test in taking on this improbable match up with The Hound.   That hilt touching has to have been a signal of some sort. If you read a little farther on you will see Brienne's connection to Dunc and Pennytree.   Just more wonder.   

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1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

Agreed. Doesn't Stoneheart know Oathkeeper is in part Ice? I may be making this up, happens a lot. 

And I definitely think Pod's welfare and survival - and to a lesser extent Hunt's - are Brienne's main motivations in going along w/ whatever plan the BwB has... 

I also think that Brienne has realised already that Stoneheart is not Catelyn, and she cannot hope to keep her oath to Cat w/o seriously harming Jaime - either by her own hands or by luring him into a trap and delivering him to LSH to be killed.

There. Is. No. Way. Brienne. Will. Do. This. (Imo)

Oh thank you! That's a great quote, and another important bit I had no recollection of...

I have long thought that most of the RL smallfolk support the BwB; some more actively, some more passively. I really like that some of its lords are in on it as well. 

Ooops, should have broken here not one paragraph before! 

Damn, did I accidentally delete a whole paragraph now? :bang:

But while I think some details may play out differently, I agree w/ the gist here. And you're spot on on Brienne having no choice but help the BwB or hanging and seeing Pod and Hunt die too. That's been confirmed by Martin at a con a few years back.  

This is so so important... "not all lies are w/o honour", damn right. Fits perfectly w/ vows are not supposed to be followed blindly, or the short version, "words are wind". Talking the talk is easy, but gimme characters who will walk the walk. ;)

 

So complex, there are so many details and characters, and possibilities... I really can't wait to see what will happen, and how!

 

That's my question of the hour:  Does anyone with LSH know Oathkeeper is Ice spawn?  I don't think we know.  Well, you and I don't know and that's enough for me.  

I really hope Brienne understands this is not Cat.  I know Thoros isn't down with this LSH, but I wonder (hope) if he's looking for support so he can strike! 

You are having a bad time with your paragraph breaks!   

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My old computer is acting fritzy again, which means I can’t post very easily. 

However, there is one thing that I am not sure I’ve seen mentioned here (it could have been, but this bread is moving lightening fast). Has anyone brought up the weirdwoood stump dream Jaime has? Someone probably has and I just missed it. 

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@Lady Blizzardborn has a great thread from mid 2017 and in it she has a fantastic idea about how Oathkeeper and Widows Wail May come back “together”. 

I will see if I can find it. 

ETA: I’m still looking for that thread, but the main idea I wanted to share here was *maybe* Oathkeeper And Widows Wail come back to together as the red sword of heroes (plural), and this is Jaime and Brienne fighting together. Or, something like that. 

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3 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

That's my question of the hour:  Does anyone with LSH know Oathkeeper is Ice spawn?  I don't think we know.  Well, you and I don't know and that's enough for me.  

I think it is common knowledge that the lannisters didn t have a valyrian sword and the book cat acuses brienne of having a lannister sword (which is a valyrian sword). If she found out that oathkeeper belongs to the lannisters she should know its origins.

However I advise you to look at the chapter LSH is judging brienne.

 

And another thing we haven t spoke about yet. Is it true that howland reed and the other 2 northerns that were present at robb will at the neck? Because LSH is close to the neck and has robb's crown... maybe one of brienne's missions will be to deliver the crown to these 2 guys for them to take north?

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3 hours ago, divica said:

And another thing we haven t spoke about yet. Is it true that howland reed and the other 2 northerns that were present at robb will at the neck? Because LSH is close to the neck and has robb's crown... maybe one of brienne's missions will be to deliver the crown to these 2 guys for them to take north?

We don't know if Robb sent the will w/ either Mormont or Glover. He tells them he's sending them to find - or be found by - Howland Reed, and tells them they'll be carrying letters w/ false intel in case they're captured. He never says he'll send the will w/ them as well. And more importantly, if Robb was aware they could be captured, why would he send his will w/ them? 

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15 hours ago, Haus Berlin said:

“Ser, I... I owe you an apolo...” He cut her off. “Take the bloody sword and go, before I change my mind. There’s a bay mare in the stables, as homely as you are but somewhat better trained. Chase after Steelshanks, search for Sansa, or ride home to your isle of sapphires, it’s naught to me. I don’t want to look at you anymore.”

Do you really believe he's saying what he means? That it's nothing to him what fate Brienne chooses? I don't think so. This is his chapter, we get insight on his thoughts... my interpretation was quite different.

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On 01/01/2018 at 0:52 PM, LynnS said:

This implies that one of the missions that Plague Face was given during the meeting where Arya serves was to connected to Beric and Catelyn and this is probably the 'agency' responsible for her resurrection. 

I think characterization and timeline are a bit off here. I went to asearchoficeandfire (don't you just love that site??) and searched "weeping sores".

https://asearchoficeandfire.com/?q=weeping+sores&scope[]=agot&scope[]=adwd&scope[]=acok&scope[]=asos&scope[]=affc

Bitter (traveling with another faceless man, Jaqen) is described by Arya as early as her first chapter ate ASOS the same way Brienne describes her later.

Quote

ASOS, Arya I

One had no nose, only the hole in his face where it had been cut off, and the gross fat bald one with the pointed teeth and the weeping sores on his cheeks had eyes like nothing human.

Later we learn that weeping sores are used by the house of black and white as a way to change someone's face: 

Quote

ADWD, the blind girl

That evening, after supper and a short session of the lying game, the blind girl tied a strip of rag around her head to hide her useless eyes, found her begging bowl, and asked the waif to help her don Beth's face. The waif had shaved her head for her when they took her eyes; a mummer's cut, she called it, since many mummers did the same so their wigs might fit them better. But it worked for beggars too and helped to keep their heads free from fleas and lice. More than a wig was needed, though. "I could cover you with weeping sores," the waif said, "but then innkeeps and taverners would chase you from their doors." Instead she gave her pox scars and a mummer's mole on one cheek with a dark hair growing from it.

When Arya is finally confronted by the man with weeping sores at the house of black and white, we also learn they don't give the gift to people they know.

Quote

ADWD, the ugly little girl

The priests used the language of Braavos, though once for several minutes three spoke heatedly in High Valyrian. The girl understood the words, mostly, but they spoke in soft voices, and she could not always hear. "I know this man," she did hear a priest with the face of a plague victim say. "I know this man," the fat fellow echoed, as she was pouring for him. But the handsome man said, "I will give this man the gift, I know him not." Later the squinter said the same thing, of someone else.

After three hours of wine and words, the priests took their leave … all but the kindly man, the waif, and the one whose face bore the marks of plague. His cheeks were covered with weeping sores, and his hair had fallen out. Blood dripped from one nostril and crusted at the corners of both eyes. "Our brother would have words with you, child," the kindly man told her. "Sit, if you wish." She seated herself in a weirwood chair with a face of ebony. Bloody soresheld no terror for her. She had been too long in the House of Black and White to be afraid of a false face.

Arya knew Bitter and didn't recognize this man as Bitter... of course he could be wearing a different face, but I believe GRRM is actually telling us "weeping sores are a great disguise" more than anything else. It's not the same man. While I do think it is possible and hinted at the Bitter was a faceless man, and had some mission in the Riverlands, I don't think he has anything to do with Catelyn's ressurection. He's been in the Riverlands for a long time already, but as part of the bloody mummers (and not the brotherhood without banners) - since Arya freed him from the fire. And now he was killed by Gendry. How could he have gone back to braavos in the meantime to interact with Arya? 

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Keeping with the Bitter theme though... 

while looking for "weeping sores" I reread Brienne's fever dream and I believe it can give us some insight into her behavior when she meets Jaime. Let's take a look:

Quote

AFFC, Brienne VIII

She dreamt she was at Harrenhal, down in the bear pit once again. This time it was Biter facing her, huge and bald and maggot-white, with weeping sores upon his cheeks. Naked he came, fondling his member, gnashing his filed teeth together. Brienne fled from him. "My sword," she called. "Oathkeeper. Please." The watchers did not answer. Renly was there, with Nimble Dick and Catelyn Stark. Shagwell, Pyg, and Timeon had come, and the corpses from the trees with their sunken cheeks, swollen tongues, and empty eye sockets. Brienne wailed in horror at the sight of them, and Biter grabbed her arm and yanked her close and tore a chunk from her face. "Jaime," she heard herself scream, "Jaime."

She believes Jaime can save her. He has already, once... Jaime, even without his swordhand, actually saved Brienne from that bear pit. 

Now things are different thought. She is being watched by dead people, people she failed to protect and people she killed herself. She feels responsible. She feels disgusted. And she reaches for oatkeeper, she calls for Jaime. She sees him as a away out. She believes in him. 

When faced with the choice of "sword or noose" she chooses the sword. Theoretically she's telling the Lady Stoneheart she'll slay the kingslayer... she's choosing to live. There's her first lie. When she tell Jaime "the Hound" will kill "the girl" that's not her first lie, her first lie was "sword!". Do you believe she ever truly intended to kill Jaime? The one she thinks could save her? 

When we see her again she is finding Jaime. And she touches her swordhilt. She is reassuring herself. Now she has her sword and she has Jaime. She finally believes she can get out of it. I believe, like Curled Fingers, that Brienne may be trusting in Jaime's hability to beguile their captors... 

if we believe Brienne never intended to slay Jaime, "sword!" was her first lie. If she can lie (not without honor!) she may be lying to Jamie for some higher purpose. She does love him. She believes he could save her... 

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2 hours ago, Lady Dacey said:

I think characterization and timeline are a bit off here. I went to asearchoficeandfire (don't you just love that site??) and searched "weeping sores".

Yes Nevets pointed out that Brienne meets up with the Bloody Mummers and it's Rorge who has taken Clegane's helm which explains the stories about the Hound in the Saltpans.  Lem has taken the helm but hasn't yet worn it although Thoros warns him against it.  So I do think there is something of the faceless man business around the helm since both Rorge and Biter are first connected with Jaqen H'gar and Thoros is worried about the affects of wearing the helm. 

I think it's worth it to identify the faceless men at the meeting since I think they will be placed strategically in the story.  Forked Beard and Yellow Teeth may well be at Winterfell.  Certainly Hooked Nose is the Alchemist now posing as Pate at the Citadel.  And why is he closeted with Marwyn while Sam is being interviewed by the Sphynx?  Something that Marwyn appears to have been attending by way of glass candle.

Members of the Brave companions/Bloody Mummers (Zollo - the Fat - is still out there):

{Vargo Hoat}, the commander of the company known as "the Goat" because he is from Qohor.

Anyway, this is a discussion for another thread.

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13 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Riverlands Web is a forum gang of theorists.  You can search back for their wonderful conversations.   Lots of fun.  However, Wizz can correct me, but I think the name of the group relates to the web of intrigue in the Riverlands as well.   

LoL I'm gonna search it!

13 hours ago, Wizz-The-Smith said:

Hi Cridefea!  :D

Yes, the events surrounding Jaime and the 'Web' in the RL's are one of my favourite subjects.  I shall have to formulate the necessary quotes etc. to paint the full picture, but it is all very suspicious and points to Jaime being played like Tom 'o' Sevens fiddle.  Once he is isolated and at Raventree [via Vance/river lord trickery] he even thinks to himself that it is a poor attempt at a siege, very few men, no trebuchets etc... It's almost as if the siege was a ruse!!  There were whores present [Hildy] just as there are whores present at RR [all of whom are spies] his future movements are of particular interest [making sure they know where he is] and all the while the time line seems to fit in that we don't see Brienne for ages after her [almost] hanging, enough time for LSH and the BWB to formulate a cunning plan.  It certainly fits.

I shall gather the quotes and post soon, I think George has been setting up this complex RL's scheming throughout the entirety of the RL's arc.  Many people think Jaime is showing great leadership at the second RR siege, which may be true, but I think the river lords and the BWB have been playing Jaime the whole time.  As you say, poor Jaime.  :mellow:  Awesome writing/set up though. [if correct]  :D 

Oh great! I will wait for it!

13 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

It's been my feeling that Brienne is hoping Jamie will come up with a solution.  Man this drives me nuts! 

She was already thinking she needed Jaime's help at some level, even before meeting LSH. 

Quote

Perhaps she had made a mistake in abandoning Ser Creighton and Ser Illifer. They had seemed like honest men. Would that Jaime had come with me, she thought . . . but he was a knight of the Kingsguard, his rightful place was with his king. 

Quote

Or I could take the kingsroad south, Brienne thought. I could slink back to King's Landing, confess my failure to Ser Jaime, give him back his sword, and find a ship to carry me home to Tarth, as the Elder Brother urged. The thought was a bitter one, yet there was part of her that yearned for Evenfall and her father, and another part that wondered if Jaime would comfort her should she weep upon his shoulder. That was what men wanted, wasn't it? Soft helpless women that they needed to protect?

13 hours ago, RedGrace that was promised said:

Does this thread have any connection with Brienne's possible ancestor  Dunk and Arlan of Pennytree?

I don't think this is the right place to discuss it, but I'm thinking about it since GRRM confirmed it. Maybe another thread? I would love it.

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5 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

We don't know if Robb sent the will w/ either Mormont or Glover. He tells them he's sending them to find - or be found by - Howland Reed, and tells them they'll be carrying letters w/ false intel in case they're captured. He never says he'll send the will w/ them as well. And more importantly, if Robb was aware they could be captured, why would he send his will w/ them? 

I don t have access to the books now. But I think that they were the only one who could have taken the will.

I have no idea how people in the midle of war keep wills safe in westeros, but maybe robb wanted them to give the will to howland reed for him to protect? And I think anyone that leaves the camp could be captured in a war, so maybe the false letters were just a precaution?

Anyway, we have 3 characters that know of robbs will in the neck and that think jon is the last "stark" alive and the best hope to unify the north against the boltons? In addition, LSH has robb's crown. So we might have a riverlands/neck conspiracy vs a northern conspiracy?

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57 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Yes Nevets pointed out that Brienne meets up with the Bloody Mummers and it's Rorge who has taken Clegane's helm which explains the stories about the Hound in the Saltpans.  Lem has taken the helm but hasn't yet worn it although Thoros warns him against it.  So I do think there is something of the faceless man business around the helm since both Rorge and Biter are first connected with Jaqen H'gar and Thoros is worried about the affects of wearing the helm. 

I think it's worth it to identify the faceless men at the meeting since I think they will be placed strategically in the story.  Forked Beard and Yellow Teeth may well be at Winterfell.  Certainly Hooked Nose is the Alchemist now posing as Pate at the Citadel.  And why is he closeted with Marwyn while Sam is being interviewed by the Sphynx?  Something that Marwyn appears to have been attending by way of glass candle.

Members of the Brave companions/Bloody Mummers (Zollo - the Fat - is still out there):

{Vargo Hoat}, the commander of the company known as "the Goat" because he is from Qohor.

Anyway, this is a discussion for another thread.

You think that rorge and bitter are lesser faceless men that were in the dungeons to help Jaqen H'gar accomplish some mission?

And I mean lesser because I like the idea that not all the faceless men can completly change their face. That there are people that can only change the nose or use some kind of glamours for example. And that rorge aplied some faceless magic to the helm in order to make him look like the hound when he uses it? or maybe he just used a glamour on the helmet? (we have no confirmation if a person has to be dead in order to use a glamour that looks like that person).

And having a faceless man with access to a glass candle and ravens is super useful to know the location of targets very fast.

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1 hour ago, divica said:

You think that rorge and bitter are lesser faceless men that were in the dungeons to help Jaqen H'gar accomplish some mission?

And I mean lesser because I like the idea that not all the faceless men can completly change their face. That there are people that can only change the nose or use some kind of glamours for example. And that rorge aplied some faceless magic to the helm in order to make him look like the hound when he uses it? or maybe he just used a glamour on the helmet? (we have no confirmation if a person has to be dead in order to use a glamour that looks like that person).

And having a faceless man with access to a glass candle and ravens is super useful to know the location of targets very fast.

It is odd isn't it that Rorge and Biter first show up with Jaqen so I wonder if the faceless men have associates so to speak.  Maybe not all acolytes become full-fledged FM but serve in another capacity.  I do wonder about Clegane's helm and whether it was forged by Tobho Mott possibly employing ancient spells.  Thoros seems to think that the helm contains the evil of those who have worn it and that wearing it will have an evil affect.  I also wonder about the Fat Man that Arya identifies.  Zollo the Fat is the one who cut off Jaime's sword hand and he's still lurking about.  Perhaps such a precise comparison between Plague Face in the HoB&W and Brienne' encounter with the the man weeping sores is meant to draw out attention to the Bloody Mummers.

The business with the glass candle in Marywn's quarters is interesting given that Qyburn also has an association with both Marwyn and the Mummer's.  When Sam enters Marwyn's chambers he notices the smell of something burnt on the brazier.  So perhaps we have blood magic used in conjunction with the glass candles to see into the flames. 

I know we're getting off topic here; but allow me to add this dream of Bran's:

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A Game of Thrones - Bran IV

In his dream he was climbing again, pulling himself up an ancient windowless tower, his fingers forcing themselves between blackened stones, his feet scrabbling for purchase. Higher and higher he climbed, through the clouds and into the night sky, and still the tower rose before him. When he paused to look down, his head swam dizzily and he felt his fingers slipping. Bran cried out and clung for dear life. The earth was a thousand miles beneath him and he could not fly. He could not fly. He waited until his heart had stopped pounding, until he could breathe, and he began to climb again. There was no way to go but up. Far above him, outlined against a vast pale moon, he thought he could see the shapes of gargoyles. His arms were sore and aching, but he dared not rest. He forced himself to climb faster. The gargoyles watched him ascend. Their eyes glowed red as hot coals in a brazier. Perhaps once they had been lions, but now they were twisted and grotesque. Bran could hear them whispering to each other in soft stone voices terrible to hear. He must not listen, he told himself, he must not hear, so long as he did not hear them he was safe. But when the gargoyles pulled themselves loose from the stone and padded down the side of the tower to where Bran clung, he knew he was not safe after all. "I didn't hear," he wept as they came closer and closer, "I didn't, I didn't."

He woke gasping, lost in darkness, and saw a vast shadow looming over him. "I didn't hear," he whispered, trembling in fear, but then the shadow said "Hodor," and lit the candle by the bedside, and Bran sighed with relief.

On first blush this seems to be a dream about overhearing Jaime and Cersei in the broken tower; but the tower in his dreams is tall and windowless, ancient.  Rather than lions, he sees something twisted and grotesque and their eye glow like hot coals in a brazier as you might expect if someone is seeing you through the fire.  Poor Bran realizes that he isn't safe after all which I think provides the impetus to get beyond the Wall to Bloodraven's cave 'where you can see them, but they can't see you."

The second thing that I find interesting is the reference to Hodor standing over Bran with a candle; an angel in a sense and Bran is soothed by his presence.  This brings to mind Arya's conversation with the Kindly Old Man:

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A Feast for Crows - Arya II

"Death is not the worst thing," the kindly man replied. "It is His gift to us, an end to want and pain. On the day that we are born the Many-Faced God sends each of us a dark angel to walk through life beside us. When our sins and our sufferings grow too great to be borne, the angel takes us by the hand to lead us to the nightlands, where the stars burn ever bright. Those who come to drink from the black cup are looking for their angels. If they are afraid, the candles soothe them. When you smell our candles burning, what does it make you think of, my child?"

So if Biter and Rorge are associates of the FM or tools of the FM; what of Hodor?  Something has been taken from them perhaps?  Biter and Rorge seem less than human and Hodor has lost the power of speech.

All men must serve.

https://asearchoficeandfire.com/?q=all+men+must+serve&scope[]=agot&scope[]=adwd&scope[]=acok&scope[]=asos&scope[]=affc&povs[]=Arya

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