Brienne's Honor in Pennytree

[Curled Finger]

8 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

Besides this, I think there's the possibility that LSH was banking on Brienne's reaction to seeing Pod and Hunt's lives in jeoapardy like that. LSH did force Brienne's hand on this one. Pod and Hunt are completely blameless in this mess, no matter what LSH or the BwB says about them. 

Maybe LSH decided to roll the dice with Brienne by making the threat to Pod and Hunt's lives very real. If Brienne hadn't reacted as she had, that's no skin off LSH or the BwB's noses. We also don't know what the word Brienne said was, and we are assuming that Pod and Hunt are hostages to Brienne's good behavior, which is good and all, but I decided I wouldn't get attached to the idea, because you know, it's these books and Brienne might have ridden away with those two alive, but might come back to find them dangling from a tree.

Thank you, Curled Finger.

I personally don't think Brienne was in between life and death or that Thoros gave her the kiss. But Brienne is not a liar, and yet she lied and she's not a deceiver, but she has to deceive Jaime in order to have him follow her. We know Arya is in Braavos and Sansa is in the Vale, we know she is told the Hound died by the Elder Brother. I don't think it means she has changed, though. Maybe she hopes to get through to LSH, though I think that ship sailed. It's not like Catelyn was the most reasonable person when she was alive (I'm not a Catelyn fan, so I am indeed biased), and if there's a trial by combat, maybe she will want to be his champion. 

Nah, I don't really believe Brienne died and was kissed.  Just a speculation.  However I do think she was perilously close to death--that's how I read her thoughts while being hung.  Maybe that right there was enough to snap her in to the grim reality of her circumstances?  She's already been woefully injured before be hung.   Just sounds like a really good time to change is all.  If she has changed, she's got to realize she's not going to get through to LSH.  Maybe she knows she needs Jamie to get out of this mess so the assignment is really just a fulfillment for Brienne to get untangled from the BWB.  And Thoros is there.   He doesn't sound particularly sympathetic to Brienne so much as disgusted with LSH and his companions.   What says Thoros doesn't have a change too and begin to sight on Brienne as a champion for the BWB?  Maybe just a way to get rid of LSH.   I do wonder why he sticks around if he's so unhappy?  There is a reason for it I'm sure.    

If you read back you will find plenty of us who are not Cat fans, so you are in good company here.  We are 10 pages into this without bashing.   Your statement about Cat not being the most reasonable person before she became LSH is right on and lends itself to LSH's disposition.  

[Alexis-something-Rose]

2 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

It's not in AFfC, but Martin confirmed it a few yrs back at Miscon 2012:

"george confirmed that the word brienne screamed was “sword”; lady stoneheart gave brienne the choice of either swearing her sword to her or being hung, saying “sword or noose”, and as brienne was being hung she screamed “sword”

 

Ah! Thanks for the clarification. I don't follow anything that happens at cons. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

Nah, I don't really believe Brienne died and was kissed.  Just a speculation.  However I do think she was perilously close to death--that's how I read her thoughts while being hung.  Maybe that right there was enough to snap her in to the grim reality of her circumstances?  She's already been woefully injured before be hung.   Just sounds like a really good time to change is all.  If she has changed, she's got to realize she's not going to get through to LSH.  Maybe she knows she needs Jamie to get out of this mess so the assignment is really just a fulfillment for Brienne to get untangled from the BWB.  And Thoros is there.   He doesn't sound particularly sympathetic to Brienne so much as disgusted with LSH and his companions.   What says Thoros doesn't have a change too and begin to sight on Brienne as a champion for the BWB?  Maybe just a way to get rid of LSH.   I do wonder why he sticks around if he's so unhappy?  There is a reason for it I'm sure.    

If you read back you will find plenty of us who are not Cat fans, so you are in good company here.  We are 10 pages into this without bashing.   Your statement about Cat not being the most reasonable person before she became LSH is right on and lends itself to LSH's disposition.  

I certainly don't wish several resurrections on poor Brienne after what they did to Beric but Brienne would make an excellent leader for the BwB. 

As for Cat she has always been sort of here nor there to me. I didn't particularly like her & some of her decisions irritated me to say the least but I didn't start really disliking her until she became LSH. Which I think is a character we are meant to dislike. 

I'm so hung up on what possible mission she may have for Jaime that it is driving me nuts! Lol 

I don't think Brienne is changed but I think she is learning some hard truths. Much the same as Sansa had to regarding "true" knights. I really like the idea that another poster (I can't remember who) put forth about it being very ironic that Brienne is lying to Jaime & walking him into his potential death while the usually wary Jaime takes her at her word with no question. I don't think Brienne will let Jaime go down without a fight & certainly don't think her arc will take her to where Jaime is in the beginning of the series but rather they will meet somewhere in the middle.

[Curled Finger]

10 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I certainly don't wish several resurrections on poor Brienne after what they did to Beric but Brienne would make an excellent leader for the BwB. 

As for Cat she has always been sort of here nor there to me. I didn't particularly like her & some of her decisions irritated me to say the least but I didn't start really disliking her until she became LSH. Which I think is a character we are meant to dislike. 

I'm so hung up on what possible mission she may have for Jaime that it is driving me nuts! Lol 

I don't think Brienne is changed but I think she is learning some hard truths. Much the same as Sansa had to regarding "true" knights. I really like the idea that another poster (I can't remember who) put forth about it being very ironic that Brienne is lying to Jaime & walking him into his potential death while the usually wary Jaime takes her at her word with no question. I don't think Brienne will let Jaime go down without a fight & certainly don't think her arc will take her to where Jaime is in the beginning of the series but rather they will meet somewhere in the middle.

I sure hope so.  I'm working on the timeline and distances for trying to nail down where LSH and the BWB really are so we can try to get a better handle on which direction they are headed.   I think that will help us determine Jamie's mission.  I have determined that River Run has to be more than a day's ride from Pennytree at roughly 300 miles away give or take.  On or near 5/10 Jamie meets with Edmure then we see him at Raventree Hall (just west of Pennytree) on 5/23.  Brienne's trial is held on 5/17.  I'm not sure how fast a horse can travel, but I'm guessing it takes Brienne 5 days to reach Jamie at Pennytree.   I'm also wondering if LSH/BWB have received word yet of the events at Riverrun, like Jamie's threats to Edmure or the Blackfish disappearing.  The only thing I've really come up with is it's unlikely LSH/BWB are trying to intercept Jeyne Westerling's party enroute to Casterly Rock.   So depending upon where Brienne's "Hound" is, she and Jamie may have some serious time to get a plan together.  

[kissdbyfire]

37 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

I sure hope so.  I'm working on the timeline and distances for trying to nail down where LSH and the BWB really are so we can try to get a better handle on which direction they are headed.   

Oh brilliant! It's going to be so incredibly helpful, can't wait to see what you come up w/.

37 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

I think that will help us determine Jamie's mission.  I have determined that River Run has to be more than a day's ride from Pennytree at roughly 300 miles away give or take.  On or near 5/10 Jamie meets with Edmure then we see him at Raventree Hall (just west of Pennytree) on 5/23.  Brienne's trial is held on 5/17.  I'm not sure how fast a horse can travel, but I'm guessing it takes Brienne 5 days to reach Jamie at Pennytree.

That timeline I linked above has a travel speed calculator or chart or whatever. It's quite neat b/c they give you a few different options, like group on foot/horseback travelling slowly/ fast etc. 

37 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

   I'm also wondering if LSH/BWB have received word yet of the events at Riverrun, like Jamie's threats to Edmure or the Blackfish disappearing.  The only thing I've really come up with is it's unlikely LSH/BWB are trying to intercept Jeyne Westerling's party enroute to Casterly Rock.   So depending upon where Brienne's "Hound" is, she and Jamie may have some serious time to get a plan together.  

Yeah, I want all these answers too! And I especially the Blackfish ... has he found (or was found by) the BwB or has he gone farther North and joined Mormont or Glover? Gods, so many questions, so many blanks that need to be filled...

Here's to getting all most of the answers in 2028! Happy New Year everyone! 

[Curled Finger]

21 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Oh brilliant! It's going to be so incredibly helpful, can't wait to see what you come up w/.

That timeline I linked above has a travel speed calculator or chart or whatever. It's quite neat b/c they give you a few different options, like group on foot/horseback travelling slowly/ fast etc. 

Yeah, I want all these answers too! And I especially the Blackfish ... has he found (or was found by) the BwB or has he gone farther North and joined Mormont or Glover? Gods, so many questions, so many blanks that need to be filled...

Here's to getting all most of the answers in 2028! Happy New Year everyone! 

nEW yEAR!  wOOHOO!  Out with the old and in with the NEW.  

I'm working on it and using your timeline (that's how I estimated the distance!!!)  I'm rereading Jamie's AFFC chapters to see who says what about the BWB/Hound and when.   But it appears I am about to be invaded by revelers with Jello shots, so...

Everyone be safe tonight and look so forward to your future...Back soon with real updates. 

[Seams]

Can I throw a couple of logs on the fire?

Skip this is you don't like close readings of the text (i.e., symbolism and literary stuff) or wordplay.

I think @LynnS is right that there is a hidden message in Brienne touching the hilt of the sword that came from Jaime, just after confirming that she has been bitten on her cheek. But I'm not sure what the hidden message might be! The most relevant quote shared by LynnS is probably this one:

"I insist. A true knight must defend the gentler sex."

She touched her sword hilt. "This will defend me, ser." 

"A sword is only as good as the man who wields it."

(AFfC, Brienne I)

This is part of an almost dream-like sequence where Brienne seems to be symbolically knighted by Ser Creighton Longbough and Ser Illifer the Penniless. The author seems to be giving us a parallel to Jaime, with several references to disembodied arms ("She stacked her arms and shield and saddlebags beneath an elm," and "Their names meant no more to her than did their arms.") and an awake-all-night vigil, like Jaime kneeling in the sept after being knighted by Ser Arthur Dayne. Brienne's vigil follows a confession-like denial to Ser Illifer that she is NOT a kingslayer (he had heard that she killed Renly) and a call on the seven gods to withhold mercy, bring down justice upon her and strike her dead if she is lying. Although we see Brienne "swear" (by both her sword and the Seven), the "knighting" is unlike Jaime's knighthood ceremony in that A) it does not take place, and B ) it is administered by a hedge knight who is part of the penny motif - similar to Dunk's claim that Ser Arlan of Pennytree had knighted him. The scene recalls Renly in a flashback, so we have a link to an earlier occasion of Brienne swearing - her oath to Renly's rainbow guard which plays out like a wedding ceremony with Brienne receiving a cloak - as well as her "rebirth" when Renly dances with her and helps her to get past the mortifying embarrassment of having been the focus of practical jokes by fake suitors.

So is Brienne being compared to Jaime, Ser Duncan the Tall or - as I will try to make a case in a minute - to Sandor Clegane? I suspect all three, which is one reason it's difficult to sort out where GRRM will take us next with Brienne's Riverlands quest. Ser Illifer focuses a number of remarks on Brienne's shield, which is a Lothston shield taken from Harrenhal. He calls it a liar's shield. We know that Brienne will soon come upon a magical fairy tale door and she will ask the painter of that door to paint her shield with the arms of Ser Duncan. Is it still a liar's shield after it is repainted? Does it become a magical fairy tale door? This may link back to @Curled Finger's OP, which I haven't forgotten. Did Brienne become a liar when she took up that shield? Does she remain a liar? Ser Creighton, who is part of this symbolic knighting ceremony, claims to be a true knight but is almost certainly full of bull with boasts of unlikely combat exploits. Does Brienne take on some of his characteristics by allowing herself to be "knighted" by him? She describes her temporary companions as decent men, in the end.

It is worth noting that "Renly" was also a fake participant at the battle of the Blackwater, with Ser Garlan Tyrell wearing Renly's distinctive green armor to inspire and rally Renly's supporters in the battle.

But we were talking about Brienne touching the hilt of her sword just after Jaime noted the bandaged wound on her cheek:

Gods be good, she looks ten years older than when I saw her last. And what's happened to her face? "That bandage … you've been wounded …"

"A bite." She touched the hilt of her sword, the sword that he had given her. Oathkeeper. "My lord, you gave me a quest."

(ADwD, Jaime I)

Who else do we know who has a hole in his cheek? Does this ring a bell: "Down by his jaw, you could see a hint of bone where the flesh had been seared away." (AGoT, Sansa II). This injury was inflicted on The Hound after he aspired to take his brother's marvelous toy wooden knight. After he was burned, The Hound's father lied about the origin of his injury and Sandor became disdainful of knights and everything they claimed to stand for. Are we seeing a similar pattern with Brienne? Does she become a liar and lose her respect for the institution of knighthood after being bitten by Biter? Or after being strung up by Lady Stoneheart and the Brotherhood Without Banners? To complicate the layers of symbolism, we have several Renly images associated with the cheek-biting incident: Renly eating a peach while he parlays with Stannis; Renly-look-alike-Gendry's sword coming through Biter's mouth, appearing to Brienne to be Biter's tongue, while he is attacking her and eating her flesh; Brienne having taken and used Renly's sword when she defended herself against his other Rainbow Guard members but losing that sword and now carrying Jaime's sword. So "Renly" is both the biter of Brienne and the rescuer of Brienne at the same time.

In answer to one of the questions in your OP, Curled Finger, I would say that GRRM is deliberately putting Brienne into this atmosphere of lies and the lying liars who tell them, but without telling us whether she is actually lying or whether lies are a bad thing. I suspect that Ser Duncan the Tall was never knighted by Ser Arlan but I don't care - he seems to be everything a knight needs to be and the author might even be making a point that the people who are not knighted by who strive to be knight-like are always better than those who take the title.

Which brings me to another point about Sandor Clegane. "Quiet Isle" = "Quest I lie"? GRRM doesn't often use the word "quest," I think, but Brienne uses it in the interaction with Jaime cited in the OP. @Joy Hill speculated that Brienne might bring Jaime to the Quiet Isle and that does seem like a strong possibility to me. Again, the sword Oathkeeper might come into play:

... she had another longsword hidden in her bedroll. She sat on the bed and took it out. Gold glimmered yellow in the candlelight and rubies smoldered red. When she slid Oathkeeper from the ornate scabbard, Brienne's breath caught in her throat.

(AFfC, Brienne I)

The most prominent rubies seem to be on the sword's scabbard, but the eyes of the lion head pommel are also rubies. We know that the Elder Brother on the Quiet Isle is awaiting the arrival of a ruby. There is a general assumption in this forum that the rubies he awaits are decorations from Rhaegar's armor that fell off when he fought Robert Baratheon at the Ruby Ford. There is also a widespread belief that the seven rubies could represent Targaryens or close relatives who have been living under hidden identities. What if the rubies are not from Rhaegar's armor - or not all from Rhaegar's armor? What if Oathkeeper carries the last ruby awaited by the Elder Brother? If so, does it meet the Elder Brother's expectations if Brienne carries it to the Quiet Isle, or must it be carried by Jaime?

Aside from the awaited arrival of a missing ruby at the Quiet Isle, rubies could also be part of this lying motif that we already noted with Brienne's "liar's shield" and the possible lies associated with the knighthood of Duncan the Tall and the injury to Sandor Clegane's face. Rubies are used to cast or maintain a glamor spell, disguising the appearance of a person wearing a ruby. I've written elsewhere in this forum speculation that the "Brienne" we see luring Jaime away from his army and other companions might be a glamor, perhaps created by Thoros of Myr. This plot twist would allow Brienne to maintain her vow to Jaime, with some dishonest person disguised as Brienne misleading the Kingslayer.

But the ruby also plays into a wordplay pair that may link Brienne's arc, once again, to Sandor Clegane. (I have also written about this elsewhere, so I will try to be brief.) If Sandor Clegane is the gravedigger on the Quiet Isle, his job is the bury bodies. What does the author mean by setting up wordplay around "bury" and "ruby"? If the glamor angle applies, burying a body might involve taking it out of circulation, while using a ruby to make a glamor could involve putting a dead person into circulation. (Although I suspect that someone can be glamored as another living person, not just as a dead person.) Does the Elder Brother want to create a glamor? Seven glamors? Has someone already been glamored? Is the sword Oathkeeper a glamor, with the spell maintained by the rubies on its sheath or in its lion head pommel?

We may not have an answer about Oathkeeper's rubies but we do have some interesting clues to explore around burying. If the speculation about The Hound is correct, he is the gravedigger. Brienne compels the demon / fool, Shagwell, to become a gravedigger for his victim, Dick Crabb, before Shagwell attempts to attack her and she kills him. As LynnS pointed out (on p. 4 of this thread), Catelyn's last act was to kill the fool Jinglebell / Aegon. Catelyn will not be buried but, in a mockery of the Tully funerary custom, her body will be thrown in the river - like Rhaegar's rubies?

Recall, also, this early reference to burials that seemed unimportant:

"I am sent to tell you that we found two rangers, long missing. They were dead, yet when we brought the corpses back to the Wall they rose again in the night. One slew Ser Jaremy Rykker, while the second tried to murder the Lord Commander."

. . .

"And ... your brothers killed these, ah, dead men?"

"We did."

"You're certain that they are dead this time?" Tyrion asked mildly. When Bronn choked on a snort of laughter, he knew how he must proceed. "Truly truly dead?"

"They were dead the first time," Ser Alliser snapped "Pale and cold, with black hands and feet. I brought Jared's hand, torn from his corpse by the bastard's wolf."

Littlefinger stirred. "And where is this charming token?"

Ser Alliser frowned uncomfortably. "It . . . rotted to pieces while I waited, unheard. There's naught left to show but bones."

Titters echoed through the hall "Lord Baelish," Tyrion called down to Littlefinger, "buy our brave Ser Alliser a hundred spades to take back to the Wall with him."

"Spades?" Ser Alliser narrowed his eyes suspiciously.

"If you bury your dead, they won't come walking," Tyrion told him, and the court laughed openly. "Spades will end your troubles, with some strong backs to wield them. Ser Jacelyn, see that the good brother has his pick of he city dungeons."

(ACoK, Tyrion VII)

This comment is too long so I'll try to wrap up. I can flesh out these last points in subsequent posts, if anyone needs or wants clarification.

I think the author wants us to loosely associate Beric Dondarrion and Dick Crabb but also to consider Ser Alliser Thorne with this group. Ser Alliser came into conflict with Tyrion at the crab dinner enjoyed by the officers of the Night's Watch. These characters are linked by the burying references with Ser Beric repeatedly dying but remaining unburied and being revived to walk again, perhaps proving Tyrion's point about the need for spades.

Thorne is also linked to the disembodied arm or hand mentioned earlier in connection with Brienne being "un-knighted" by the hedge knights and, of course, strongly associated with Jaime. Thorne carries the arm of the wighted Night's Watch ranger, Jared Othor, to King's Landing. After the crab dinner at Castle Black, Tyrion had gone up on the Wall and encountered Jon Snow on the far side of a catapult:

He passed a massive catapult, as tall as a city wall, its base sunk deep into the Wall. The throwing arm had been taken off for repairs and then forgotten; it lay there like a broken toy, half-embedded in the ice. (AGoT, Tyrion III)

So here we have a half-buried thing with a disembodied arm and it is compared to a toy. The burial and the toy take us back to Sandor Clegane, whose face was burned after he played with his brother's toy (that had pegged joints so the limbs could move). Catelyn discovered that Roose Bolton's arm was clad in chain mail under his sleeve just as he tells her son, "Jaime Lannister sends his regards."

Ser Beric is "Exhibit A" among people who die but come back to life, repeatedly coming back to life with the help of Thoros of Myr. Dick Crabb tells the story of the Whispers and the reanimated heads of enemies that become advisors to the legendary Ser Clarence Crabb. Is Ser Alliser also somehow connected with rebirth of dead people? Certainly his assignment to carry Othor's arm puts him in touch with the wights that the Night's Watch has rediscovered. In his early Master-at-Arms (aha!) scenes, he also tells his green recruits that they would be dead or lose a hand if they had been using real weapons instead of practice swords. Maybe this is part of the "not truly dead" theme the author has built.

Perhaps the strongest tie between Ser Beric and Ser Alliser is that the former hangs out with Thoros and the latter is linked to Othor. Close enough to be linked names, in my experience.

Sandor Clegane appears to be busy burying corpses, which Tyrion says prevents them from walking.

Catelyn died but was never buried and she took the last breath of Ser Beric and now continues as Lady Stoneheart.

There is also a shared motif of fools in these linked arcs: Catelyn kills Jinglebell before being rescued by the Brotherhood Without Banners. Tyrion acts the fool with his crab fork during the conflict with Ser Alliser. (When Ser Alliser comes to King's Landing, Tyrion makes Ser Alliser look foolish before the court as a way of deflecting laughter from himself.) Brienne kills the fool Shagwell before being taken by the Brotherhood Without Banners. In a flashback, Brienne remembers feeling like a fool before dancing with Renly makes her feel respected. She meets up with Ser Shadrich and feels foolish again when he figures out that she is looking for Sansa Stark and Ser Dontos.

There is another whole set of linked symbols around the biting, goats, Jaime's maimed arm and Vargo Hoat. I think we are supposed to compare the Brotherhood without Banners to the Brave Companions / Bloody Mummers. Brienne bit Vargo's ear; Biter bit Brienne's cheek. Vargo Hoat is forced to eat his own amputated body parts; Brienne eats goat meat during the chapter in which she encounters Ser Creighton and Ser Illifer.

And then there's the shared ancient kings motif (Brienne travels to Duskendale; Clarence Crabb at Crackclaw Point; Catelyn at Tristifer's tomb) and runes (Robb's crown, Ser Illyn Payne's silver sword, Tristifer's tomb, the Royce armor - even though Ser Waymar wasn't wearing it when he was wighted) and the sword / words / wards wordplay. (The sword / words wordplay may relate to the question in the OP about whether Brienne is lying as she touches her sword.) I don't see any hints that Catelyn will head to Riverrun for the Frey wedding. I suspect she might take her posse to wreak havoc at the Frey source at the Twins and might go after her remaining "ward," Big Walder, in the North.

I think GRRM used these unexpected shared symbols to lay out a trail of breadcrumbs for us. He is showing that these characters and these arcs will come back together in the last two books: Catelyn, Jaime, Brienne and The Hound will meet again. I suspect their destinies will take some or all of them to Ser Alliser Thorne. (Who may be an Iron Throne symbol - Thorne / throne.) Another fool will be stabbed with a dagger - will it be Tyrion, who has become more of a fool during his travels through Essos? Unfortunately, I fear that it might be the direwolf Ghost, who was the subject of a running joke about being taught to juggle. (The juggling remark was originally made by Ser Alliser but Jon Snow turned it against him to make him look foolish.) The seventh ruby will be found and someone who needs to be buried will be buried.

[hiemal]

On 12/30/2017 at 11:21 AM, John Suburbs said:

I'll throw a crackpot into this discussion:

The Hound is Lem, true enough, but the girl is none other than Podrick Payne. Yes, Podrick is a girl, which they discover when trying to revive her from near-hanging.

Finally someone else who believes this!

I don't think I ever started an entire thread of this one, or if I did I'm sure it nowhere, but Pod's interactions with Brienne (pronouns and sharing rooms) and a few others (Meribald, in particular) got me on this idea years ago but TBH I never carried it through it to the reveal. That's excellent!

[hiemal]

On 12/29/2017 at 9:08 PM, Curled Finger said:

Is it possible The Hound himself, Sandor, has made his presence known to Brienne and she is conspiring with him to thwart LSH?  There are a lot of moving parts in the Riverlands.   I think we all expect something big to happen there.   With your help we may be able to come up with a plausible alternate scenario here where Brienne is not lying to her best friend.  

Spitball: The Hound and Brienne are indeed conspiring and the Hound wants to destroy LSH while Brienne's oath to Lady Cat still drives her to save her. "Girl" is a stretch, but...

[Nevets]

I think it is possible that LSH is keeping Jaime around for some sort of mission, but I can't think what that would be.  I doubt he would go along with anything that would result in loss of Lannister lives, or their men (he is a Lannister, after all).  He's not that interested in his own life, or Brienne's.  And I doubt Brienne would do that either.  That eliminates infiltrating Riverrun for Red Wedding 2.0.  

It is possible she might be interested in using Jaime to rescue Edmure and/or Jayne.  The main problem with that is it has only been a few days since they left for Casterly Rock,so timing is an issue.  In that case, they might hope that Jaime would be willing and able to trick Forley Prester into turning them over to him.  Might work, might not.  It's the only thing I can think of.  I just now thought of it, which is why I didn't mention it earlier.

It's possible they could be headed north after fArya.  It's possible they are aware of the betrothal, and I seriously doubt anyone would have been able to get a good enough look at her to tell it wasn't Arya.  But the BwB is mostly Riverlanders who would have no interest in going North.  While they might have sent someone to Winterfell, it is unlikely that person could communicate considering the distance and the weather.  Given Catelyn's demonstrated distrust and hostility towards Jon, it is doubtful they would have any interest in the NW or the Wall.

Podrick a girl?  Nah.  Given the relaxed attitude towards nudity, especially in private and semi-private settings, I don't think he could have hidden that fact from Tyrion and Brienne, both POV's.  And we've been given no hint, like we have about Alleras. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

28 minutes ago, Nevets said:

I doubt he would go along with anything that would result in loss of Lannister lives, or their men (he is a Lannister, after all).  He's not that interested in his own life, or Brienne's.  And I doubt Brienne would do that either.  That eliminates infiltrating Riverrun for Red Wedding 2.0.  

I think he may be more interested in Brienne's life than you think but I agree neither Jaime or Brienne would be interested in participating in a RW 2.0 There is always the possibility that the mission helps infiltrate the wedding without them doing the slaughtering though.

 

28 minutes ago, Nevets said:

It's possible they could be headed north after fArya.  It's possible they are aware of the betrothal, and I seriously doubt anyone would have been able to get a good enough look at her to tell it wasn't Arya.  But the BwB is mostly Riverlanders who would have no interest in going North.  While they might have sent someone to Winterfell, it is unlikely that person could communicate considering the distance and the weather.  

I doubt they are heading for fArya. Both Jaime & Brienne know it isn't the real Arya. I suppose UnCat may believe they are lying though I don't know what she would need Jaime or Brienne for to go to WF. 

 

28 minutes ago, Nevets said:

Given Catelyn's demonstrated distrust and hostility towards Jon, it is doubtful they would have any interest in the NW or the Wall.

I agree but I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility that UnCat's vengeance is so deep for the Frey's that she feels little to nothing for Jon. She could be obsessed with fulfilling Robb's wishes though - which were to name Jon his heir. 

 

28 minutes ago, Nevets said:

Podrick a girl?  Nah.  Given the relaxed attitude towards nudity, especially in private and semi-private settings, I don't think he could have hidden that fact from Tyrion and Brienne, both POV's.  And we've been given no hint, like we have about Alleras. 

Definitely agree here but I thought the poster that said that was referring to Pod symbolically being "the girl" "The Hound" will kill if Jaime doesn't come with her. 

You know it's odd to me that Jaime doesn't ask what The Hound wants with him & why the Hound would believe Sansa's life would mean anything to him. 

Sorry just saw the quote about Pod being a girl - I was referring to an earlier post. Definitely agree with you - Pod is no girl. 

[divica]

3 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I think he may be more interested in Brienne's life than you think but I agree neither Jaime or Brienne would be interested in participating in a RW 2.0 There is always the possibility that the mission helps infiltrate the wedding without them doing the slaughtering though.

I don t think jamie would infiltrate the BwB into RR in order for them to kill Lannisters. It isn t diferent enough from him killing people from his house...

And even if LSH threatens Brienne's life there is no way LSH could ever be 100% that jamie didn t sabotage them somehow.

The only thing I can see jamie and brienne doing is rescuing hostages. But it would depend on where the hostages are. And I think they were transfered from the twins to KL... However I think it is roose that says this and maybe Jamie knows the transport route or it is him and members of the BwB dressed as Lannister that go get the hostages? I would need to reread those passages again because I simply don t remmember if it is possible to rescue the hostages or not.

3 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I doubt they are heading for fArya. Both Jaime & Brienne know it isn't the real Arya. I suppose UnCat may believe they are lying though I don't know what she would need Jaime or Brienne for to go to WF. 

It would be easier to convince jamie to plot against the boltons in winterfell... But I don t think it would fit in the northern timeline and I am sucker for sending jamie to the Wall and LSH meeting jon snow.

[RustyRootedWeirwood]

Awesome post!  

This discussion has really got me thinking about the future for Brienne/Jaime. Scouring through this post  I'm persuaded to believe LSH has some semblance of coherent thought left in her. What I'm having a hard time believing is whether she can be convinced of better alternatives for plans that she has not come up with herself. Can she be reasoned with? Maybe, maybe not. Could you trick her into  reason by making her think she came up with idea to begin with? It's hard to say. With that being said I propose two ways I see this going. 

1. LSH just wants Jaime to hang and this is her best plan. Pretty boring IMO but it's plausible I suppose.

2. LSH wants to see if Jaime really meant to keep his vows to her. I'd like to explore more in depth on this because I'm not sure if I've seen this proposed. 

We know Brienne claims that the Hound holds the girl (Sansa/Arya) and will kill her unless Jaime comes forth personally. We all know this to not be true in a literal sense but I'm not sure that matters to LSH. She wants Jamie to think its real. She wants to see if he's really all that Brienne swore him to be (You know Brienne would keep insisting upon his honor, even after the attempted hanging). That's why she told Brienne to say what she said. BTW I do think Brienne was giving a subtle warning in her "lie" by touching the hilt of Oathkeeper, but I digress. 

I see the Jaime encounter with the "Hound" going one of three ways. 

1. They hang him immediately and Ser Goldenhand the Just story ends (Bold Strategy GRRM)

2. Jaime battles the hound to save the "girl". Where the BwB see how far Jaimes prowess has fallen but also just how far he's willing to go. In this scenario Jaime proves himself to be true and although he won't necessarily beat the "Hound" he also won't lose/die. I like something like this but I'd like to go further.

3. The third and final but also most intriguing thing I see happening  is a variation of the 2nd scenario. In this scenario the BwB/LSH are absolutely sure of Jaimes devotion to not only saving the Stark girls but also honoring to NEVER take up arms against Stark or Tully. If they can be ABSOLUTELY certain of his devotion he can be used in ways LSH could never be. If that's the case I believe he will die. And then be reborn by LSH herself. We've seen that those revived are driven by the last purpose they had in life. Who better than the leader of your enemy to be fully devoted to your cause? 

With Jaime as the new de facto leader of the BwB the sky is the limit. The BwB will have much more influence with a wight?Jaime. Not really sure what you call that but it doesn't really matter.

Obviously this is way out there as far as they go. Not bloody likely either lol. But I feel like all the likely answers have been hashed out by you fine people. Anyway I've been lurking here a while to say the least but this discussion really made me want to chime in! Appreciate the forum! And all the chatter leading up to TWOW!  (hopefully). 

[kissdbyfire]

4 hours ago, divica said:

The only thing I can see jamie and brienne doing is rescuing hostages. But it would depend on where the hostages are. And I think they were transfered from the twins to KL... However I think it is roose that says this and maybe Jamie knows the transport route or it is him and members of the BwB dressed as Lannister that go get the hostages? I would need to reread those passages again because I simply don t remmember if it is possible to rescue the hostages or not.

Do you mean the RW hostages? If so, we don't know where they are now. Last we heard of them was when Jaime dismissed Ryman Frey and gave the command of the Frey troops to his son Edwyn. I quoted the passage here, maybe a couple of pages back? Jaime tells Ryman to leave - "go home or to hell" - and instructs him to tell Walder that the crown demands the RW prisoners. This happens towards the end of AFfC. Here:

“Send word to Lord Walder. The crown requires all his prisoners.” Jaime waved his golden hand. “Ser Lyle, bring him.”

Now, did Walder obey? Could he have obeyed even if he wanted to? Ryman and his party are killed near Fairmarket, so Walder may not have received Jaime's instructions. That said, since Jaime and Edwyn etc know that Ryman was killed, a raven may have been sent to the Twins w/ Jaime's instructions, but we the readers are not made aware of this. 

And welcome, @RustyRootedWeirwood!

 

[LynnS]

My goodness!  What is a faceless man doing with the BwB?

Quote

A Feast for Crows - Brienne VII

I may not want to meet them, Brienne thought, as the first riders came splashing through the puddles into the yard. Beneath the patter of the rain and Dog's barking, she could hear the faint clink of swords and mail from beneath their ragged cloaks. She counted them as they came. Two, four, six, seven. Some of them were wounded, judging from the way they rode. The last man was massive and hulking, as big as two of the others. His horse was blown and bloody, staggering beneath his weight. All the riders had their hoods up against the lashing rain, save him alone. His face was broad and hairless, maggot white, his round cheeks covered with weeping sores.

Brienne sucked in her breath and drew Oathkeeper. Too many, she thought, with a start of fear, they are too many. "Gendry," she said in a low voice, "you'll want a sword, and armor. These are not your friends. They're no one's friends." 

"What are you talking about?" The boy came and stood beside her, his hammer in his hand.

A Dance with Dragons - The Ugly Little Girl

The priests used the language of Braavos, though once for several minutes three spoke heatedly in High Valyrian. The girl understood the words, mostly, but they spoke in soft voices, and she could not always hear. "I know this man," she did hear a priest with the face of a plague victim say. "I know this man," the fat fellow echoed, as she was pouring for him. But the handsome man said, "I will give this man the gift, I know him not." Later the squinter said the same thing, of someone else.

After three hours of wine and words, the priests took their leave … all but the kindly man, the waif, and the one whose face bore the marks of plague. His cheeks were covered with weeping sores, and his hair had fallen out. Blood dripped from one nostril and crusted at the corners of both eyes. "Our brother would have words with you, child," the kindly man told her. "Sit, if you wish." She seated herself in a weirwood chair with a face of ebony. Bloody sores held no terror for her. She had been too long in the House of Black and White to be afraid of a false face.

This implies that one of the missions that Plague Face was given during the meeting where Arya serves was to connected to Beric and Catelyn and this is probably the 'agency' responsible for her resurrection.  Also why Lem is so vicious when he wears Sandor's helm.  It is like another face, containing everything vile about the Hound when he is nearly dead. 

Lady Stoneheart is described:

Quote

A Feast for Crows - Brienne VIII

". . . till you stand before m'lady." Renly stood behind the girl, pushing his black hair out of his eyes. Not Renly. Gendry. "M'lady means for you to answer for your crimes."

"M'lady." The wine was making her head spin. It was hard to think. "Stoneheart. Is that who you mean?" Lord Randyll had spoken of her, back at Maidenpool. "Lady Stoneheart."

"Some call her that. Some call her other things. The Silent Sister. Mother Merciless. The Hangwoman."

She is a servant of the Stranger. Silent sisters are sometimes referred to as the Stranger's wives^[2] or death's handmaidens.^[3]

It's an interesting twist and sheds some light on the story of the Sailor's Wife who goes to the Isle of the Gods in Braavos (The House of Black and White) to pray for the return of her dead husband.

Melisadres' explanation that objects that belonged to a dead person contain a memory of them certainly seems true in the case of the Hound's helm. 

Edit:  It's possible the BwB are going to Winterfell.  There may be more faceless men there:

A Feast for Crows - Arya II

Poisons. She understood then. Every evening after prayer the waif emptied a stone flagon into the waters of the black pool.

The waif and kindly man were not the only servants of the Many-Faced God. From time to time others would visit the House of Black and White. The fat fellow had fierce black eyes, a hook nose, and a wide mouth full of yellow teeth. The stern face never smiled; his eyes were pale, his lips full and dark. The handsome man had a beard of a different color every time she saw him, and a different nose, but he was never less than comely. Those three came most often, but there were others: the squinter, the lordling, the starved man. One time the fat fellow and the squinter came together. Umma sent Arya to pour for them. "When you are not pouring, you must stand as still as if you had been carved of stone," the kindly man told her. "Can you do that?"

A Dance with Dragons - Reek I

Little Walder pushed him stumbling past the long tables where the men of the garrison were eating. He could feel their eyes upon him. The best places, up near the dais, were occupied by Ramsay's favorites, the Bastard's Boys. Ben Bones, the old man who kept his lordship's beloved hunting hounds. Damon, called Damon Dance-for-Me, fair-haired and boyish. Grunt, who had lost his tongue for speaking carelessly in Lord Roose's hearing. Sour Alyn. Skinner. Yellow Dick. Farther down, below the salt, were others that Reek knew by sight if not by name: sworn swords and serjeants, soldiers and gaolers and torturers. But there were strangers too, faces he did not know. Some wrinkled their noses as he passed, whilst others laughed at the sight of him. Guests, Reek thought, his lordship's friends, and I am brought up to amuse them. A shiver of fear went through him.

At the high table the Bastard of Bolton sat in his lord father's seat, drinking from his father's cup. Two old men shared the high table with him, and Reek knew at a glance that both were lords. One was gaunt, with flinty eyes, a long white beard, and a face as hard as a winter frost. His jerkin was a ragged bearskin, worn and greasy. Underneath he wore a ringmail byrnie, even at table. The second lord was thin as well, but twisted where the first was straight. One of his shoulders was much higher than the other, and he stooped over his trencher like a vulture over carrion. His eyes were grey and greedy, his teeth yellow, his forked beard a tangle of snow and silver. Only a few wisps of white hair still clung to his spotted skull, but the cloak he wore was soft and fine, grey wool trimmed with black sable and fastened at the shoulder with a starburst wrought in beaten silver.

 

[Curled Finger]

It's so nice to wake up to so many folks continuing to enjoy themselves here.   @Seams & @hiemal--what took you so long?   We've been here since Friday, for crying out loud!  As always your contributions are appreciated.   We are going to have to examine Rhaegar's rubies just a bit more to get me straight though, OK?   Ruby/bury--I know it's early but I caught it and get it.   When does that ever happen 1st time around?  Any thoughts on a potential death or near death experience Brienne may have experienced?

I see @Lyanna<3Rhaegar, @kissdbyfire, @LynnS, @Nevets and @divica kept the party going. (Warning to lurkers thinking about topics--these guys just look modest--interesting ideas and brilliant conversationalists all!)  I figure I've got a few minutes on all of you by virtue of crashing early, so I'll get cleaned up and catch up with where our discussion has gone. 

[divica]

5 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Do you mean the RW hostages? If so, we don't know where they are now. Last we heard of them was when Jaime dismissed Ryman Frey and gave the command of the Frey troops to his son Edwyn. I quoted the passage here, maybe a couple of pages back? Jaime tells Ryman to leave - "go home or to hell" - and instructs him to tell Walder that the crown demands the RW prisoners. This happens towards the end of AFfC. Here:

“Send word to Lord Walder. The crown requires all his prisoners.” Jaime waved his golden hand. “Ser Lyle, bring him.”

Now, did Walder obey? Could he have obeyed even if he wanted to? Ryman and his party are killed near Fairmarket, so Walder may not have received Jaime's instructions. That said, since Jaime and Edwyn etc know that Ryman was killed, a raven may have been sent to the Twins w/ Jaime's instructions, but we the readers are not made aware of this. 

And welcome, @RustyRootedWeirwood!

 

But there are still northern hostages from the war of the 5 kings right? Are those in KL? In my head there are northern hostage in KL or lannisters hands but I don t remmember why.

Anyways, jamie is the best source of information LSH could have to find out where the hostages are and to elaborate a plan to rescue them. And if they are still at the twins I could see LSH killing walder frey and then moving north with the northerns. They are her son and husband's men and she has unfinished business there. Besides, after killing walder and the castellan (if I remember right he is one of the main culprits for the RW) there isn t much more for LSH to do in the riverlands...

If she remains in the riverlands much longer then she must be thinking about becoming in charge of the riverlands. She is a tully after all...

[kissdbyfire]

30 minutes ago, divica said:

But there are still northern hostages from the war of the 5 kings right? Are those in KL? In my head there are northern hostage in KL or lannisters hands but I don t remmember why.

It's very likely that there are northerners who are currently PoW, but not at the Twins... I mean, those being held there are PoW, but they were captured during the RW. And these are the prisoners Jamie is talking about when he has his little chat w/ Ryman Frey. And there may be other PoW elsewhere, like the westerlands for instance. But I don't think anyone important, those were at the RW. 

30 minutes ago, divica said:

Anyways, jamie is the best source of information LSH could have to find out where the hostages are and to elaborate a plan to rescue them. And if they are still at the twins I could see LSH killing walder frey and then moving north with the northerns. They are her son and husband's men and she has unfinished business there. Besides, after killing walder and the castellan (if I remember right he is one of the main culprits for the RW) there isn t much more for LSH to do in the riverlands...

I don't think LSH is going to believe anything Jaime says. She didn't believe Brienne, someone she knew and trusted. Why should she believe the despicable kingslayer? I honestly don't see LSH going north... at least not yet. 

30 minutes ago, divica said:

If she remains in the riverlands much longer then she must be thinking about becoming in charge of the riverlands. She is a tully after all...

I am not convinced (yet) that LSH's humanity is completely gone. That said, I don't think she can be reasoned w/ or that one can have any sort of meaningful exchange w/ her either. My take is, shreds of her humanity are buried down inside her, but very very deep inside, under all that rage and hatred and thirst for revenge. And yes, she is a Tully but all her kids are Starks, and that's why I think she could eventually head north - but only if it's something to do w/ the kids she thinks are dead or lost. Like hearing of Rickon's return, something like that. That's why I don't think she'll head north yet... still plenty of Freys to hang in the Riverlands, and it allows for more time to pass and for characters to be in position. I can't wait to see how this storyline is going to play out...

[Curled Finger]

On 12/30/2017 at 0:15 AM, Leo of House Cartel said:

Yo @Curled Finger, where might Brienne and Jaime's interaction at Pennytree take place in the time line?

If they have went off to find "Sansa" during the 48th chapter of a 72 chapter book, then where might the story pick up in TWOW? I suspect a few weeks may have gone by when we get a Jaime or Brienne POV, so their meeting with "The Hound" could perhaps be shown to us through the use of flashbacks. 

All right, Party Animal...I've got a decent timeline with distances and all sorts of good stuff.   I reckon a good horse could make nearly 50 miles per day in the flatlands.  This timeline uses real world dates (which really keeps me straight).   At this point I've determined Brienne was 5 day's ride from Pennytree, give or take half day--gives me 200 to 300 miles from Pennytree, making me believe the BWB was closer to Harrenhall than the Inn at the Crossroads, but that could be wrong, too.   I'm researching Jamie 3 through 7 AFFC as well as Jamie 1 ADWD.   I will have a report for you once I get it all put together.   Put down the champagne and get back here to hold up your end of the conversation!   Happy New Year, Leo!

[TheThreeEyedCow]

On 30/12/2017 at 6:29 PM, Curled Finger said:

Welcome to the discussion, Ser.   I'm with you to a certain extent.   LSH has a plan.  A live Jamie Lannister is crucial.   If the gossip is true, she's right there by the Twins when Brienne finds Jamie.   I don't know about intelligence--Beric seemed to just cling to the vows he made, which ended up being valiant and productive whereas LSH does appear to be hellbent on revenge.    It's written to make us underestimate this wraith.  So what is a live Jamie Lannister good for?  Right now he's Mr. Man in the Riverlands, ending sieges, taking hostages, dividing land and calling the shots.  I think he could gain access to the Twins, but I'm sure there are other situations this guy could be very useful in.   

Lady Stone Heart has hung 2 knights and a little boy.  She's pretty terrible.  But I'm sure there is a plan in this.   Do you have an idea about what Jamie could be useful to her for? 

My thanks. Alas, by the time I get around to sitting in my favorite chair and discussing my favorite book the conversation has progressed exponentially! I'll have to catch up...