Curled Finger

Brienne's Honor in Pennytree

450 posts in this topic

@Lost Melnibonean,  an extremely well cited explanation.  That 1st dream sure is a weird one and I did enjoy your take on it.  I read once a long time ago that Jamie has his famous nickname that should change if he is successful in redeeming himself.   Folks offered their ideas about what other name he could take on to counter balance Kingslayer.  King Maker and Dragon Slayer were both pretty strong contenders.   I find this very interesting that you don't side him with Dany at all, though few do.   I understand the connection to Rhaegar's children and certainly we are faced with potentially 2 of them.  But Blackfyre support?  Holy cow!   I remember thinking Jamie's colors were strange for such an um, meaningless dinner, but I was thinking he was just overdressed!  I do admire you folks who identify and understand the symbolism because it is hopelessly lost on me.   

I have to know.  Who revives Jamie?  

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On 30/12/2017 at 3:51 PM, Curled Finger said:

Hola Leo!  I had to read your post a couple of times to get the cobwebs out of my mind.  Yep, leave it to you...You bring up an excellent point.  And ruined my entire day.   I'm thinking about these chapters and time lines and 1st thought was "He won't tell us".  OK now that I've been jump started today you're right.   They've gone (or not--we don't actually see them leave) on quest.  You know the timelines give me a headache.   

Ah the flashback.  I reckon we will get more of those than ever before in TWOW.   Preston Jacobs has a series about Jon's stabbing wherein he lays out a 70 day scenario for Jon's story at least, in ADWD.   I don't know if it's right or not or exactly where Pennytree occurs in this.   Thanks to your point here, I am very loosely guessing it would be end of the 1st month to 2 weeks into the 2nd month.  I believe Jamie lies down under a crescent moon, if that is of any help determining when.   Rather than me boring you with my musings about when how about you tell me what you think?  I don't think I know anyone more suited than you to make an imaginative guess.   

Happy new year CF, I hope 2018 serves you well!

I'm still unable to determine the timeline, had a look at Preston's Stabbing video and was impressed by the timeline he has assembled!

I do think there is a great chance that Jaime's tale will pick up with him as a prisoner of TBWB, several weeks after Pennytree. I wonder if all of this is building up to some downfall for the Freys. With only two books left, one would think that if they are going to get their just desserts then it would most likely be soon, so as to free up page time for the more heavy duty stuff to come. Brienne, Jaime and LSH have aso all have had recent involvement with one Frey or the other.

If it is indeed the case that Jaime been in LSH's possession for an extended time come TWOW then perhaps we could get some scenario where the Hangwoman sends Jamie in as a double agent against the Freys - Stoneheart essentially made Brienne an offer of "be my pawn against Jaime or die" so I could see a similar choice being given to the Kingslayer in regards to those damn Freys.

"Goldenhand" himself might be prone to such manipulations by LSH if she somehow threatens Brienne's safety, like how Brienne herself was coerced by the threat on hers and Pod's lives. "The Beauty" has been a strong influence over Ser Lannister, and he obviously values her greatly. With so much of this golden Lion's recent arc dedicated to his own redemption I feel it is quite likely that he would view some covert pact with the former Lady Stark as a form of bittersweet penance for all he has done, more so if it were done to save the life of his friend, The Maid of Tarth.

Having the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard show up at the Twins to orchestrate some form of deception could be a sound strategic move for the Brotherhood - would old Lord Frey, paranoid as he is, really have any reason to refuse Jaime entry to his castle? In light of the recent hangings of several Freys, Lord Walder would have many reasons to seek audience with the current King's "uncle", a man who has also recently been involved with another Frey claiming Riverrun.

Once inside the Twins, perhaps Jaime could take a cue from his notorious ancestor Lann The Clever and cause all sorts of mischief under the cover of darkness - letting the lions loose, if you will. Some disguised members of the BwB, and perhaps Brienne herself, could even accompany him along the way. 

In terms of Brienne's honour, such a situation might be the least headache inducing. If she and Jaime were to head to the Twins to kill some Freys then she would be upholding any previous vows she has made to both Jaime and Cat, along with potentially ridding the realm of the oath breaking Freys and avenging the murder of Cat herself.

If everything were to go to plan then access to the North would be freed up which could help greatly in Brienne's search for Arya and Sansa - It has been the opinion amongst the public that "Arya" is in Winterfell anyway, so the Maid of Tarth might be looking to heard there next.

While such deception might seem out of character and perhaps even morally wrong to Brienne, we should keep in mind that the Freys broke the sacred laws of guest right by murdering the woman to whom she had made sacred oaths.

Members of the Brotherhood might see the value of such a ploy, after all, how long do these men really want to go around hanging Freys for? 

If the Blackfish has indeed joined up with Tom and the rest of the gang then he he might also see the wisdom in this course of action. Brynden Tully clearly still believes in whatever cause he and the Young Wolf were fighting for, judging by his hold out at Riverrun, and would most likely not view the previously touched upon "running around the woods hanging people" as a sustainable war strategy.

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@Leo of House Cartel, a very Happy 2018 to you my friend!   

I do enjoy your thoughts random and pondered.   There is an elegance to the words you choose that conveys the complicated in a most comprehensive way.   Thank you for getting back to me.  Yes, I agree that Brienne is the bait and Jamie is the prize.   I do wonder what that makes Hyle?  We know Pod is the insurance for Brienne's cooperation.  We've had such an enlightening conversation here that I would not be surprised at any turn Jamie and Brienne's story takes.   As you say, there is a need to decrease POVs as well as get to larger stories in TWOW.   A wrap up to this drama should take us in the direction to deal with The Others.  We will lose one of these POVs--whether Jamie or Brienne becomes some undead thing I hope neither loses their sense of humor.  Jamie is simply too much fun to read!  I would enjoy a better understanding of the BWB's intentions and an "outing" of sorts in having members such as the Blackfish in unity with Jamie's ideals.  Another meeting between them would be so much fun.  

It's obvious you're very busy, Leo.   I do appreciate the time and thought you dedicated to your reply.  Every conversation I enjoy is so much richer for your contributions.   

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On 11/1/2018 at 11:39 PM, Curled Finger said:

Why do we suspect Elder Brother may be Jonathor Darry?   Well, we know where Barristan and Jamie are and the rest of the kingsgaurd are dead with the exception of Jonathor Darry, whereabouts and fate unknown.   Very much like Richard Lonmouth's fate is unknown.  A Kings Guard would be valuable in the aftermath of war.  It's curious his body wasn't found.  What could have happened to him?   How about he became a broken man after his Prince's death and defeat?  Elder Brother is a former warrior by his own admission.   He's pretty adamant about The Hound being dead and at peace while he knows full well he's harboring the newly repentant Sandor Clegane.  And there is that so cryptic reference to waiting for the 7th ruby.   That quote can be taken a lot of ways, but I wondered if it's not some reference to another missing white brother--Jamie perhaps? (7KG ?) Elder Brother just fits the description of Septon Meribald's description of human fall out.  As I say there is less persuasive evidence for Elder Brother's identity than Lem Lemoncloak's. 

I like it, especially the ruby part (I also think it means something). But there are 2 things that make me skeptical:

First of all I don't think the story he told Brienne about his life is a lie. It's just vague. He doesn't lie about The Hound, technically. He says he saw him dying. He uses a metaphoric level for himsel too (when he says he died in battle). There is one thing not clear: who did he bury? Hound's armor? If he didn't do a grave, where did Rorge take the helm?

Second, the age. Elder brother is 44, Battle of trident was in 283, so 27/28. It could be, but I think Jonothor is older, no proof but only the way I see his description.

On 11/1/2018 at 11:39 PM, Curled Finger said:

His motivation could have been anything, but I do think it has more to do with Jamie than Sansa, the quest or Brienne herself.

Yes probably for Jaime.

 

 

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35 minutes ago, Cridefea said:

I like it, especially the ruby part (I also think it means something). But there are 2 things that make me skeptical:

First of all I don't think the story he told Brienne about his life is a lie. It's just vague. He doesn't lie about The Hound, technically. He says he saw him dying. He uses a metaphoric level for himsel too (when he says he died in battle). There is one thing not clear: who did he bury? Hound's armor? If he didn't do a grave, where did Rorge take the helm?

Second, the age. Elder brother is 44, Battle of trident was in 283, so 27/28. It could be, but I think Jonothor is older, no proof but only the way I see his description.

Yes probably for Jaime.

 

 

Elder Brother and everything happening west of our action here is fascinating.   Is there another separate conspiracy?   Who is in Sandor's grave?  Why did we get 2 completely different perspectives on the rape of the Saltpans?  Why was there no guilt in Septon Meribald or Dog for that matter--he was only traveling with her.   Yah, I don't buy it either.  There is so much happening all over the Riverlands and there is so much to discuss.  But I'm pleased you were able to read through the Darry stuff.  I don't know that I'm convinced by the little evidence or coincidence of corresponding similarities between Darry and EB.   It's awfully thin.  

The rubies are an entirely different conversation by themselves.   Man that was an enigmatic statement.  

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11 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

@Leo of House Cartel, a very Happy 2018 to you my friend!   

I do enjoy your thoughts random and pondered.   There is an elegance to the words you choose that conveys the complicated in a most comprehensive way.   Thank you for getting back to me.  Yes, I agree that Brienne is the bait and Jamie is the prize.   I do wonder what that makes Hyle?  We know Pod is the insurance for Brienne's cooperation.  We've had such an enlightening conversation here that I would not be surprised at any turn Jamie and Brienne's story takes.   As you say, there is a need to decrease POVs as well as get to larger stories in TWOW.   A wrap up to this drama should take us in the direction to deal with The Others.  We will lose one of these POVs--whether Jamie or Brienne becomes some undead thing I hope neither loses their sense of humor.  Jamie is simply too much fun to read!  I would enjoy a better understanding of the BWB's intentions and an "outing" of sorts in having members such as the Blackfish in unity with Jamie's ideals.  Another meeting between them would be so much fun.  

It's obvious you're very busy, Leo.   I do appreciate the time and thought you dedicated to your reply.  Every conversation I enjoy is so much richer for your contributions.   

Wether we lose or not povs I think we need to have better conected povs instead of each 10 people having their independent story. For exemple, in the war of the 5 kings although the characters were far way most of the chapters were related (with the exception of jon and danny). In affc everyone was doing their thing so it feels like a lot of stories in a book and that we need less povs.

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5 minutes ago, divica said:

Wether we lose or not povs I think we need to have better conected povs instead of each 10 people having their independent story. For exemple, in the war of the 5 kings although the characters were far way most of the chapters were related (with the exception of jon and danny). In affc everyone was doing their thing so it feels like a lot of stories in a book and that we need less povs.

I'm actually pondering the structure of TWOW since we began this discussion a couple of weeks ago.  There was a statement a while back that GRRM said he was cutting POVs to 13 in TWOW.  I've not heard another peep about it, so perhaps it is not Martin's intention.  But that idea gave rise to life, death and all things in between.  Personally, I agree that the plots need to merge and make sense within each other and to the overall story.  Not that I would give a single Greyjoy chapter up.   I realize what a really interesting thing our author did in allowing us in Jamie and Cersei's heads and later with Ser Barristan.  Gotta admit Martin is not sparing with the clever.  But you're right,things need to shore up if there are only to be 2 more books. 

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4 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

I'm actually pondering the structure of TWOW since we began this discussion a couple of weeks ago.  There was a statement a while back that GRRM said he was cutting POVs to 13 in TWOW.  I've not heard another peep about it, so perhaps it is not Martin's intention.  But that idea gave rise to life, death and all things in between.  Personally, I agree that the plots need to merge and make sense within each other and to the overall story.  Not that I would give a single Greyjoy chapter up.   I realize what a really interesting thing our author did in allowing us in Jamie and Cersei's heads and later with Ser Barristan.  Gotta admit Martin is not sparing with the clever.  But you're right,things need to shore up if there are only to be 2 more books. 

I think he said by the end of winds we would have 13 povs. In the begining it is impossible. But to me the winds has to be 2 volumes so maybe I am not the best person to talk about it.

And I suspect aeron and theon won t outlive the winds of winter. One sacrificed to summon a kraken and the other after the conflict with the boltons is taken care of hasn t much to do in the story...

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2 hours ago, Cridefea said:

I like it, especially the ruby part (I also think it means something). But there are 2 things that make me skeptical:

First of all I don't think the story he told Brienne about his life is a lie. It's just vague. He doesn't lie about The Hound, technically. He says he saw him dying. He uses a metaphoric level for himsel too (when he says he died in battle). There is one thing not clear: who did he bury? Hound's armor? If he didn't do a grave, where did Rorge take the helm?

Interesting you should raise the details of Elder Brother and his role in the Hound's "burial." For the thread I just posted about borrowed armor, I found that there is a parallel between Jaime's conversation with Ser Loras about Renly's borrowed armor and his burial, juxtaposed with Brienne's conversation with the Elder Brother about the Hound's helmet and his grave:

Tell me, ser. Who was wearing Renly's armor?"

For a moment Loras Tyrell looked as though he might refuse, but in the end he remembered his vows. "My brother," he said sullenly. "Renly was taller than me, and broader in the chest. His armor was too loose on me, but it suited Garlan well."

"Was the masquerade your notion, or his?"

"Lord Littlefinger suggested it. He said it would frighten Stannis's ignorant men-at-arms."

"And so it did." And some knights and lordlings too. "Well, you gave the singers something to make rhymes about, I suppose that's not to be despised. What did you do with Renly?"

"I buried him with mine own hands, in a place he showed me once when I was a squire at Storm's End. No one shall ever find him there to disturb his rest."

ASoS, Chapter 67, Jaime VIII

"There is one thing I do know, however. The man you hunt is dead."

That was another shock. "How did he die?"

"By the sword, as he had lived."

"You know this for a certainty?"

"I buried him myself. I can tell you where his grave lies, if you wish. I covered him with stones to keep the carrion eaters from digging up his flesh, and set his helm atop the cairn to mark his final resting place. That was a grievous error. Some other wayfarer found my marker and claimed it for himself. The man who raped and killed at Saltpans was not Sandor Clegane, though he may be as dangerous. The riverlands are full of such scavengers. . . . "

AFfC, Brienne VI

It would never have crossed my mind to compare Ser Loras and the Elder Brother, but there you have it. Once you spot the parallel, you can pick out more details:

  • The Elder Brother says he buried The Hound himself; Ser Loras says he buried Renly himself.
  • Both men took pains to keep the grave secure - Loras by choosing a hidden location; the Elder Brother by piling stones on the grave.
  • Ser Loras says his elder brother wore Renly's armor; the Elder Brother says a wayfarer is wearing The Hound's helmet.
  • People are frightened by the armor / helmet or by the person wearing the dead guy's armor / helmet.
  • The dead guys may be literally or symbolically alive - a singer described Renly's ghost coming back to fight and to kiss Margaery goodbye; the Hound may have been "reborn" as the gravedigger.

If the author truly wants us to compare Ser Loras and the Elder Brother, that suggests to me that the Elder Brother is a relatively decent man. Ser Loras is young, self-assured and a bit impetuous, but seems mostly honorable. He did ride a mare in heat at the jousting match with Ser Gregor and he killed two innocent co-workers in a fit of rage when Renly was killed, but other than that . . .

One thing that's interesting about the Elder Brother excerpt is that he was especially concerned about carrion eaters eating the flesh of the Hound. We have seen Biter eating flesh - he chewed fingers off the guards in the Harrenhal dungeon after the Weasel Soup episode. It was Rorge who took and wore the Hound's helmet, but he is closely associated with Biter. Weese dies at Harrenhal with his dog apparently tearing out his throat and eating his face. I have found parallels between the death of Weese and the death of Joffrey, which might bring this around again to Ser Garlan if the Tyrells were part of a plot to poison Joffrey. And perhaps undermines my confidence that Ser Loras is as honorable as he seems at first glance . . .

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I know this thread is sinking into a well-earned rest but I am still intrigued by the mystery of Brienne's honor and honesty, and I wanted to finish a AFfC Brienne re-read to see what I could find. Last night I read Brienne IV in AFfC (chapter 20) and found a lot of discussion about lies and honesty and honor, particularly in dialogue with Nimble Dick Crabb.

Dick seems to be an important symbol and parallel character. He is a guide, like many minor characters who help our POVs to find obscure destinations along their journeys. He is a singer and storyteller, and we know that these characters often reveal truths and hints of things to come in the form of parables and legends.

In Dick's chats with Brienne, she brings up Ser Galladon of Morne, the Perfect Knight, who receives a sword from the maiden of the new gods. The story seems like it could be a variation the Florian and Jonquil story, with a maiden and a knight-fool but I also get the distinct impression that GRRM is deliberately withholding details of the Florian and Jonquil story from us. Either he doesn't want to tell us too soon how their story turns out or, like the game of cyvasse, the metaphor is too complex and he will never tell us how it turns out. Dick also sings a bit of the Bear and Maiden Fair song during the trip.

After Brienne paraphrases the Galladon story for Dick, he immediately calls Galladon "the Perfect Fool" because he made sparing use of the magic sword he had just been given. In earlier chapters, Brienne thought about Florian (among other legendary characters) carrying a magic sword as she contemplated Oathkeeper in the privacy of her room at an inn. Dick seems focused on swords and who should use them at what points and for what purposes, trying to persuade Brienne to let him get close to her (non-Oathkeeper) sword or to borrow a sword. (He is a former knight, with a lord's sigil ripped off his shirt, but carries only a dagger.) Only at the point of entering their destination, the ruined castle called The Whispers (also Dick's birthplace), does Brienne finally hand a sword to Dick. He is unable to use it as his knee is immediately shattered by a triple morningstar weapon wielded by the fool Shagwell: "The sword she'd given him went flying from his hand and vanished in the weeds."

I've been trying to think of parallel characters but I'm not sure whether there is an exact match for him: in his guide work, he reminds me of Theon taking Lady Dustin into the crypts at Winterfell which she and her men can't find without his help. The crypt is not Theon's birthplace, but he admits there that he wishes he had been a Stark and we learn that there was an ancient Stark king called Theon. Like Dick, after Theon becomes Reek, he carries only a dagger and he suspects that he will be unable to use a sword because of the maiming of his hands. He puts a lot of thought into the missing swords in the crypt. Both men wear dirty rags.

But Dick seems to parallel Ser Dontos as well. Both men are hard drinkers. Brienne passed through the ruined Hollard keep, birthplace of Ser Dontos, earlier in her travels and her trip to Crackclaw point takes her to Dick Crabb's birthplace, the Whispers. Both men undertake the task of guide in return for payment in gold dragon coins. Ser Dontos, of course, evokes the Florian and Jonquil story when he pledges to help Sansa escape from King's Landing. He is a former knight who wants to be a knight again just for the moment of helping Sansa through a secret passage out of the Red Keep - similar to Dick Crabb wanting a sword again? Both Dontos and Dick Crabb die shortly after reaching their destinations: Dick killed by Shagwell and Dontos killed by Littlefinger's crossbow men.

If Nimble Dick Crabb is like Ser Dontos, do we also have to consider whether he is like Shagwell? Brienne is hoping that the fool Nimble Dick had sent to Crackclaw point was actually Ser Dontos, traveling with Sansa and/or Arya. Only at the very end of the journey does she learn that the fool is actually the nightmarish, violent Shagwell, a member of the Bloody Mummers led by Vargo Hoat and a fugitive from the newly imposed law and order regime represented by Randall Tarly.

Rebirths take many forms in ASOIAF but returning to a birthplace seems to be a clear signal that a rebirth can go forward. I speculated earlier in this thread that Pod was a reborn variation on Dontos because he showed up just as Brienne took shelter in the ruined keep of House Hollard. (I really love the idea that young Pod is the Florian to Brienne's Jonquil, and I smile at the author's creative inversion of the brave knight and fair maid archetype.) Just as Brienne slays Shagwell and Dick Crabb is buried in his birthplace and "paid" the two gold dragons Brienne had promised him, we have another rebirth: Ser Hyle Hunt finally catches up to Brienne and Pod.

There is something vaguely appropriate about a possible blend of Shagwell and Dick Crabb reborn in Ser Hyle, I think. The reader sees Hyle as a scumbucket dirtbag jerkface for his determined role in the betting pool to take Brienne's maidenhead after she joined Renly's army. Each member of the betting pool bet a gold dragon on the outcome - another detail in common with Dick Crabb. Brienne later beat each member of that betting pool in the melee at the tourney sponsored by Renly. She (with the help of Jaime) also beat the bear in the bear pit into which she was thrown by the Bloody Mummers. But Hyle is not as horrifying as Shagwell, by a long shot. While Nimble Dick is dirty and greedy, perhaps more honorable elements of his character that are reborn in Hyle help to tone down the uglier aspects. I know that Hyle will  undergo something of a redemption as he travels with Brienne and I will look for details that might match up with things we saw in Nimble Dick or in what little we know of Florian and Jonquil.

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