Would Rhaegar have stayed with Elia if...

[theMADdestScientist_]

3 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

That said, I think the marriage was as good as done by the time Harrenhal came around. 

I don't know. I see Aegon's birth in ACOK as the end of Rhaegar and Elia's marriage. George constantly says that he is aiming for a bittersweet end for the series, and after Aegon's birth, Rhaegar plays a song for him and Elia...and the song is bittersweet.

That vision is a moment of happiness, for Elia at least. She survived childbirth and was able to give Rhaegar a heir, but for Rhaegar, it was the end of their marriage, he knew it. It was also the end of that part of the story, because after Rhaegar left her, they all died.

 

3 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

So Elia survives giving birth to Rhaenys, but she is bedridden for 6 months. The question is what did the maesters tell her after that? Did they tell her that the next pregnancy can leave her barren, or worse, kill her? If they told her that, then that's exactly what happened. She almost died giving birth to Aegon and she can't have anymore children. If they warned her beforehand, then both she and Rhaegar knew what to expect,

They all knew she would have difficulties giving birth, but after only one child, it would still be very hard to predict what exactly would happen after she gave birth again. I don't think she was surprised when she found out that she wouldn't be able to have children again, but i don't think she was expecting that though. Way too many things could have happened to her, if anything, dying in childbirth was the one thing she thought most about.

[theMADdestScientist_]

27 minutes ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

Unpopular opinion: I don't think the writing suggests Rhaegar went after Lyanna because Elia couldn't have more children, at all.

I wouldn't call it an unpopular opinion, this is a rather realistic opinion. Perhaps that's why it is unpopular with the fandom.

27 minutes ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

In any case, I see no reason why Elia still being able to have more children would prevent him from straying. It's not like people with children have never had affairs before. Heck, some people do it while pregnant/while their partner is pregnant.

Another thing that supports your view is the fact that this wasn't a genuine marriage, but a political marriage, and a very short political marriage actually. Rhaegar met Lyanna a year after he married Elia.

Poor Elia, everything was against her, not only her health, but time as well.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

35 minutes ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

Unpopular opinion: I don't think the writing suggests Rhaegar went after Lyanna because Elia couldn't have more children, at all. The only thing that links R+L and Elia's poor health is the vision Dany sees, where vision!Rhaegar says "there must be one more". As I've said before, though, some of the things Dany sees in the HOTU are visions, not actual events. The fact that vision!Rhaegar looked straight at Dany as he was talking about the prophecy shows that, that scene was the former. There is far more evidence that R+L was a love affair.

I'm gonna pull up a chair next to you if you don't mind the company. 

[divica]

15 minutes ago, theMADdestScientist_ said:

I wouldn't call it an unpopular opinion, this is a rather realistic opinion. Perhaps that's why it is unpopular with the fandom.

Another thing that supports your view is the fact that this wasn't a genuine marriage, but a political marriage, and a very short political marriage actually. Rhaegar met Lyanna a year after he married Elia.

Poor Elia, everything was against her, not only her health, but time as well.

A year? are you sure? How old was rhaegar's daughter?

[Faera]

54 minutes ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

Unpopular opinion: I don't think the writing suggests Rhaegar went after Lyanna because Elia couldn't have more children, at all. The only thing that links R+L and Elia's poor health is the vision Dany sees, where vision!Rhaegar says "there must be one more". As I've said before, though, some of the things Dany sees in the HOTU are visions, not actual events. The fact that vision!Rhaegar looked straight at Dany as he was talking about the prophecy shows that, that scene was the former. There is far more evidence that R+L was a love affair.

In any case, I see no reason why Elia still being able to have more children would prevent him from straying. It's not like people with children have never had affairs before. Heck, some people do it while pregnant/while their partner is pregnant.

Absolutely agree.

19 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

I'm gonna pull up a chair next to you if you don't mind the company. 

Room for a third? 

13 minutes ago, divica said:

A year? are you sure? How old was rhaegar's daughter?

I'm unsure if we have ever had any clear confirmation on how old Rhaenys was when she died but if Tywin is anything to go by, she was about two or three. So, yeah she would have been about a year old at the Tourney of Harrenhal.

[divica]

31 minutes ago, Faera said:

I'm unsure if we have ever had any clear confirmation on how old Rhaenys was when she died but if Tywin is anything to go by, she was about two or three. So, yeah she would have been about a year old at the Tourney of Harrenhal.

Then rhaegar was married for at least 2 years before meeting lyanna. 1 for elia to get pregnant and other for rhaenys to be 1 at harrenhal.

[Megorova]

14 hours ago, theMADdestScientist_ said:

On 02.01.2018 at 7:48 PM, Megorova said:

I think that Elia gave birth to Aegon, before Tournament at Harrenhal

Impossible, on TWOIAF they made it clear that Rhaegar left Elia not long after she gave birth to Aegon, as he is metioned as their "young son". The tourney happened before Aegon was born, that much is clear.

 

1 hour ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

As I've said before, though, some of the things Dany sees in the HOTU are visions, not actual events. The fact that vision!Rhaegar looked straight at Dany as he was talking about the prophecy shows that, that scene was the former.

Aside from Dany's vision, in which she saw that Rhaegar was with Elia, after she gave birth to Aegon, there's no any other indications, that he left Elia after she gave birth to Aegon, and not immediately after the Tournament at Harrenhal.

If that vision is not real, then we don't actually know where was Rhaegar, from the time when Tournament ended, and until time when he kidnapped Lyanna.

So back to my previous theory - if Aegon was born not before Tournament, and Dany's vision is false, then it's possible that Rhaegar left Elia after crowning Lyanna, and Elia did gave birth to Aegon some time after Tournament. She became pregnant also after Tournament, though not from Rhaegar. Because at that point he already left her. So the second baby also was Oberyn's. And last time when Rhaegar and Elia was in each others presense, is when Rhaegar was crowning Lyanna. After that he sent Elia and Rhaenys to Dragonstone, but didn't went there with them. So his absence was used by Oberyn, who followed after Elia to Dragonstone, and there they conceived their second child.

The thing is, if Rhaegar thought that Rhaenys and Aegon were heads of the dragon from the prophecy, then why did he left them, and didn't took them with him?

Ned traveled thru entire length of Westeros, from Tower of Joy to Winterfell, with newborn Jon and his wetnurse Wylla. Catelyn traveled with newborn Robb, from Riverlands to Winterfell. Gilly and Sam traveled with one baby, and then the other, from Craster's castle to The Wall, Braavos and Oldtown. That guy that brought Viserys to Braavos, also took with him a newborn Dany, across the Narrow Sea. Pregnant Rohanna, wife of Daemon I Blackfyre, traveled to Tyrosh with her 8 little children.

So why did Rhaegar didn't took his children with him, when he kidnapped Lyanna (or elopped with her)?

If he cared about those children, then when he returned from Tower of Joy, he should have sent them on a ship to Dorne. Even Targaryens with their dragons, were unable to seize Dorne. So it was the safest place for Rhaenys and Aegon, and Elia. So why Rhaegar did absolutely nothing, to assure their safety?

It doesn't make sense. Unless he found out that those children weren't his.

[Megorova]

47 minutes ago, divica said:

Then rhaegar was married for at least 2 years before meeting lyanna. 1 for elia to get pregnant and other for rhaenys to be 1 at harrenhal.

Rhaegar and Elia married in early 280. Rhaenys was born in late 280.

Tournament at Harrenhal happened in late 281, about at the same time of a year when is Meera's birthday, and Harvest feast, in autumn.

Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna aproximately a year after Tournament, so it also was in late 282.

Rhaenys and Aegon were killed, and Jon was born in late 283. So Rhaenys either already was 3 years old, or just a month or two short of 3yo, when she died.

So Rhaegar and Elia were married for a bit less than 2 years, prior he met Lyanna, from early 280 to late 281.

[Ralphis Baratheon]

10 hours ago, theMADdestScientist_ said:

Actually, this was said to Rhaegar, not Elia. It was Rhaegar who presented the girl at court, the first time he went back to the Red Keep after his marriage, and Aerys was hungry, hungry to take a dig at Rhaegar, he was very suspicious of him by that point. The comment was made to mess with Rhaegar, 

It was her daughter that she loved. Mocking her child is as good as mocking her, especially  when the insult is that the babe smells like her mother's ethnicity.

10 hours ago, theMADdestScientist_ said:

Elia likely never knew that such comment was made, she was bedridden in Dragonstone.

It is known to us what Aerys said about Rhaenys because Aerys said it in front of all of court who was there to witnessed Rhaegar present Rhaenys to Aeys and Rhaella. I'd assume that it became known to Elia at some point as well. Gossip spreads in court after all.

10 hours ago, theMADdestScientist_ said:

TWOIAF states that Rhaegar left Elia and their children at Dragonstone, far from Aerys.

Dragonstone is not that far from King's Landing, relatively speaking. Dragonstone is part of the Crownlands, the same as King's Landing. Also Aerys knew exactly where Elia and her children were, which made it easy for him to bring them to King's Landing.

10 hours ago, theMADdestScientist_ said:

Aerys took her as a hostage only after the war started. And a brutal civil war couldn't have been foreseen so easily.

Rhaegar knew this. Remember before the last battle at the Trident, Rhaegar came back to King's Landing while Elia and their children were there. Rhaegar charges Jaime, who is staying in King's Landing, to protect his wife and children when Jaime asked to fight with him at the Trident. So when Rhaegar leaves Elia and their kids for the final time he's leaving them in King's Landing with Aerys like I originally said.

10 hours ago, theMADdestScientist_ said:

Elia married Rhaegar at very complicated moment in his life, he had his father against him, his friends constantly pressuring him to do something, and all the burden that was brought on him by his birth and subsequently the prophecies

Elia shared many of the same responsibilities. Giving Rhaegar heirs, dealing with his Mad father while he insults her child. Leaving the safety of Dorne to live under Aerys thumb, same as Rhaegar. 

10 hours ago, theMADdestScientist_ said:

Then comes Elia, a kind and gentle woman, but very delicate with a very fragile health. I have no doubt Rhaegar took care of her while they were married, but that's the problem. For a guy who had way too much on his shoulders already, he now had found himself married to a woman he barely knew, and she was a person that needed constant care. I can understand why Rhaegar couldn't find as much joy as he would have wanted while married to Elia.

She also found herself married to a person she barely knew. Such is the fate of nobles. We don't know exactly how much care she needed after she became an adult, only that it took her a long time to recover from child birth. We also don't know how much Rhaegar did to take care of her. Obviously as a princess Elia would have the help of Maesters, servants and ladies in waiting, the same as most other princesses have, even the fully healthy ones. Rhaegar not finding joy in his marriage would not necessarily be Elia's fault. She did everything that was asked of her. Perhaps she didn't find joy in their marriage either. As Barristan told Dany it was maybe not in Rhaegar to be happy. Still Elia did not run back to Dorne after Rhaegar crowned another girl QoLaB instead of her.

11 hours ago, theMADdestScientist_ said:

If he had less responsibilities, less pressure on himself and subsequently on his own life, who knows, things might have happened differently, but that's a long shot.

And had Elia married someone else besides Rhaegar she might not have been raped and murdered.

I'm not a Rhaegar hater, but I don't believe he did right by Elia.

[theMADdestScientist_]

13 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

It was her daughter that she loved. Mocking her child is as good as mocking her, especially  when the insult is that the babe smells like her mother's ethnicity.

It is known to us what Aerys said about Rhaenys because Aerys said it in front of all of court who was there to witnessed Rhaegar present Rhaenys to Aeys and Rhaella. I'd assume that it became known to Elia at some point as well. Gossip spreads in court after all.

And for what reason would people tell this to her? it is better that she never learns about it. And Rhaegar probably would never let her know about it. Another thing is that Aerys was nuts by then, he had a problem with everyone. If it was Cersei's daughter that Rhaegar was presenting at court, Aerys would have found a reason to mock the child as well. Aerys would have found a reason to mock anyone, he had no respect for anyone anymore. It was barely something personal with Elia or the dornish, especialy because it was Aerys who married Elia to Rhaegar.

13 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Dragonstone is not that far from King's Landing, relatively speaking.Dragonstone is part of the Crownlands, the same as King's Landing. Also Aerys knew exactly where Elia and her children were, which made it easy for him to bring them to King's Landing.

It's not in King's Landing, that's what matters. She wasn't close to Aerys before anything happened. Actually, she was never close to Aerys for much of her marriage, as she moved to Dragonstone shortly after she married Rhaegar.

13 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Rhaegar knew this. Remember before the last battle at the Trident, Rhaegar came back to King's Landing while Elia and their children were there. Rhaegar charges Jaime, who is staying in King's Landing, to protect his wife and children when Jaime asked to fight with him at the Trident. So when Rhaegar leaves Elia and their kids for the final time he's leaving them in King's Landing with Aerys like I originally said.

You're talking about the time he left to battle Robert? by then Elia and the kids were being used as hostages against not only Dorne, but Rhaegar as well.

13 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Elia shared many of the same responsibilities. Giving Rhaegar heirs, dealing with his Mad father while he insults her child. Leaving the safety of Dorne to live under Aerys thumb, same as Rhaegar. 

I don't think Elia had influence enough to the point she would be dealing with Aerys, nor do i think she had any relationship with him. She spent her married life in Dragonstone. Aerys didn't live there, if anyone had to deal with Aerys it was Rhaegar, he was his son after all.

Nor do i think Rhaegar would entrust her with his own resposabilities, she already had very poor health, there was a limit of things she could do. Barristan description of her makes me understand what her marriage to Rhaegar must have been: "The Princess Elia was a good and gracious lady, though her health was ever delicate." She was no doubt an exemplar person, but for someone like Rhaegar to be married to a woman in her condition would have been very taxing for him. It was no reason for him to left her though, but i can understand that such a marriage for a man in his position woudn't be easy.

13 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

We don't know exactly how much care she needed after she became an adult,

Everyone one who speaks of her, remembers her as a very delicate woman. The only time Jaime remembers her, he remembers exactly the fact that she wasn't healthy. She was a person that certainly needed a lot of care, half a year bedridden is a lot of time, even if it was because of childbirth.

13 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Rhaegar not finding joy in his marriage would not necessarily be Elia's fault

I know, but that's the tragedy of her marriage to him, her health made it all the more dificult

13 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Still Elia did not run back to Dorne after Rhaegar crowned another girl QoLaB instead of her.

She is a woman in a medieval setting. She doesn't get to go back to Dorne, her mother sold her to Rhaegar. She would have to endure whatever appeared on the way, just like Cersei did with Robert.

14 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Perhaps she didn't find joy in their marriage either. As Barristan told Dany it was maybe not in Rhaegar to be happy.

A fair statement, but if George takes this path where Elia wasn't happy with/because of Rhaegar, he will be just giving more excuses to Rhaegar. I expect something more realistic from George.

14 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

And had Elia married someone else besides Rhaegar she might not have been raped and murdered.

True, but again, i see it more as a problem of "timing". The timing of her marriage to him was terrible. If Rhaegar wasn't so strained from his father, and everything else that he had to deal with because of him, including making the tourney at Harrenhal. Things might have been different.

14 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

I'm not a Rhaegar hater, but I don't believe he did right by Elia.

No he didn't, but i can understand his point of view, and that's pretty much it. I don't agree with him, but i try to understand why he wouldn't stay with Elia.

[Megorova]

1 hour ago, theMADdestScientist_ said:

Aerys would have found a reason to mock anyone, he had no respect for anyone anymore. It was barely something personal with Elia or the dornish, especialy because it was Aerys who married Elia to Rhaegar.

Could be that Aerys chose Elia not because she was princess of Dorne, but because she had more Targaryen blood than any other girl in 7K. Elia's great grandmother was Daenerys Targaryen, sister of Daeron II, great grandfather of Aerys.

There was also Rhaelle Targaryen that married with Ormund Baratheon, she was sister of Jaehaerys II, and aunt of Aerys, and she was one generation fresher than Daenerys, she was grandmother of Robert Baratheon. Unfortunately there was no girls in Baratheon family. Otherwise Aerys would have married Rhaegar to Baratheon family, and not to Martells.

And prior Daenerys there were only Daella and Rhae, sisters of Aegon V, grandfather of Aerys. So seems that Elia was chosen because of her Targaryen ancestor, Daenerys. But when her daughter Rhaenys, had non-Targaryen looks, Aerys was dissapointed, because the child inherited Martell's genetic features and not Targaryen's.

If they chose Elia, as Rhaegar's future wife, because of her Targaryen genes, and this genes were the sole reason why they chose her, and not some other girl from other noble family, then it explains why they chose Elia to become wife of Crown Prince, even though she had a weak health. Her Targaryen genes were more important to Aerys, than her poor health.

So he didn't mocked her just because he was mad in general, he was mad specifically at her, for not delivering a purer baby. They chose Elia for her Targaryen genes, but she failed in her mission, and was unable to give them a Targaryen baby.

Also I don't think that Aerys' comment is connected to Elia being from Dorne. Because Aerys' great grandmother was Mariah Martell, princess of Dorne. So Aerys himself had the same amount of Martells genes, as Elia had Targaryen genes. Their great grandmothers were Martell/Targaryen (Aerys - Mariah Martell, Elia - Daenerys Targaryen). So it makes more sense if Aerys said that comment, if he felt that the girl has no dragonblood. Maybe he either felt that she isn't Rhaegar's daughter, and she smells Dornish because both of her parents (Elia and Oberyn) are Dornishmen, or because Rhaenys got from her mother only her Martell genes, and not her Targaryen genes.

[theMADdestScientist_]

14 hours ago, Megorova said:

Could be that Aerys chose Elia not because she was princess of Dorne, but because she had more Targaryen blood than any other girl in 7K.

No, i don't believe so. Elia's "dragon blood" never played a part in her betrothal to Rhaegar.

It's never stated why exactly she was chosen to be Rhaegar's wife. TWOIAF says it was because the Targaryens wanted to reward the Martells for their support in the war of the ninepenny kings. Which is simply not true, Aerys doesn't care about that. Before Elia was chosen, Aerys was already trying to find a wife for Rhaegar for quite some time, which means Elia was not even on the list at the beginning.

In A Storm of Swords, Oberyn's chapters actually tell us why Aerys chose Elia to be Rhaegar's bride.

Quote

“What I did not tell you was that my mother waited as long as was decent, and then broached your father about our purpose. Years later, on her deathbed, she told me that Lord Tywin had refused us brusquely. His daughter was meant for Prince Rhaegar, he informed her. And when she asked for Jaime, to espouse Elia, he offered her you instead.”

“Which offer she took for an outrage.”

“It was. Even you can see that, surely?”

“Oh, surely.” It all goes back and back, Tyrion thought, to our mothers and fathers and theirs before them. We are puppets dancing on the strings of those who came before us, and one day our own children will take up our strings and dance on in our steads. “Well, Prince Rhaegar married Elia of Dorne, not Cersei Lannister of Casterly Rock. So it would seem your mother won that tilt.”

Tywin insulted Elia's mother and Elia herself. She never forgot, even on her deathbed she still remembered it. Now, what Aerys did when Tywin offered Cersei to marry Rhaegar?

Quote

Lord Tywin chose that very night to suggest that it was past time the king’s heir wed and produced an heir of his own; he proposed his own daughter, Cersei, as wife for the crown prince. Aerys II rejected this proposal brusquely, informing Lord Tywin that he was a good and valuable servant, yet a servant nonetheless.

By the end of his reign, Aerys did whatever he could to humiliate and shame Tywin. Everyone who hated Tywin was Aerys's friend.

It's easy to see what happened. Elia's mother befriended Aerys through their mutual hatred of Tywin, and Aerys married his heir to her daughter, the very same woman Tywin rejected for his own heir. Elia's mother won, Tywin lost. Rhaegar married Elia, not Cersei. And Aerys got to humiliate Tywin once again.

It was all personal, it's always personal in this series.

 

[Megorova]

42 minutes ago, theMADdestScientist_ said:

No, i don't believe so. Elia's "dragon blood" never played a part in her betrothal to Rhaegar.

It's never stated why exactly she was chosen to be Rhaegar's wife. TWOIAF says it was because the Targaryens wanted to reward the Martells for their support in the war of the ninepenny kings. Which is simply not true, Aerys doesn't care about that. Before Elia was chosen, Aerys was already trying to find a wife for Rhaegar for quite some time, which means Elia was not even on the list at the beginning.

Aerys was looking for Rhaegar a Valyrian fiancee, he even sent Steffon Baratheon to Volantis to find a girl with pure blood. And when Steffon failed his mission, and then also died while on his way back to Westeros, only then Elia was chosen.

Steffon died in 278, and Elia was betrothed to Rhaegar in early 279. When it was time for Rhaegar to marry, his father sent Steffon to Volantis. And between that and engagement with Elia there was no other candidates.

53 minutes ago, theMADdestScientist_ said:

By the end of his reign, Aerys did whatever he could to humiliate and shame Tywin. Everyone who hated Tywin was Aerys's friend.

It's easy to see what happened. Elia's mother befriended Aerys through their mutual hatred of Tywin, and Aerys married his heir to her daughter, the very same woman Tywin rejected for his own heir. Elia's mother won, Tywin lost. Rhaegar married Elia, not Cersei. And Aerys got to himiliate Tywin once again.

It was all personal, it's always personal in this series.

You're misinterpreting entire situation. Aerys didn't married his heir and Crown Prince to Elia Martell just to jab Tywin. It's ridiculous. For him blood was the most important. He even agreed to marry with Rhaella, even though they disliked each other. Blood was more important than personal feelings.

This is how events happened in chronological order:

In 273 Dornish Princess offered to Tywin to marry their children, but was refused.

In 276 Tywin proposed to Aerys to marry their children, Aerys refused.

In 278 Steffon was sent ot Volantis to search for appropriate bride, died on the way back.

In early 279 Elia and Rhaegar were betrothed.

Married in early 280.

So if Aerys just wanted to spite Tywin, he would have arranged Rhaegar's engagement with Elia in 273, after Tywin refused marriage with Martells, or in 276, when Aerys refused to marry his son to Tywin's daughter. But he arranged engagement with Elia three years later, and only after Steffon was unable to find a suitable Valyrian bride in Essos. So based on this timeframe, and the fact that after Aerys and Rhaella, their two sons (Rhaegar and Viserys), the purest Targaryen blood had Steffon Baratheon (50% Targaryen), after him his three sons (Robert, Stannis and Renly - 25% Targaryens), after them Dornish Princess (25% Targaryen) and her children (Doran, Elia and Oberyn - 12,5% Targaryens), and after them descendants of Daella and Rhae Targaryen, that if were alive had 12,5% or even 6,25% of Targaryen blood. And based on the fact that Daella and Rhae didn't marrried with someone from major House of 7K, and their descendants also weren't mentioned anywhere significant, seems that their great grandchildren, that were of suitable age to marry with Rhaegar, had much lower status than Elia Martell, daughter of ruling Princess of Dorne. So Elia was chosen because of her Targaryen blood, and because of her high status, and not because of her mother's mutual grudge with Aerys against Tywin Lannister.

Known timeframe supports my version of events. 

[Megorova]

1 hour ago, theMADdestScientist_ said:

It was all personal, it's always personal in this series.

Ned married with Catelyn because it was necessary. Rhaegar married with Elia because she had purest Targaryen blood, after all real Targaryens. Aerys married with his sister because he saw it as his duty. Cersei married with Robert because it was what her father wanted. Petyr Baelysh participated in arrangement of Catelyn's murder, even though he supposedly loved her. But she was standing in his way to Iron Throne, so he got rid of her, and there was absolutely nothing personal in it.

[theMADdestScientist_]

16 hours ago, Megorova said:

Aerys was looking for Rhaegar a Valyrian fiancee, he even sent Steffon Baratheon to Volantis to find a girl with pure blood.

I know, but when the chance to humiliate Tywin appeared, Aerys wouldn't let it go. It was much more important to him to humiliate Tywin than find a girl with valyrian blood for Rhaegar.

16 hours ago, Megorova said:

Steffon died in 278, and Elia was betrothed to Rhaegar in early 279. When it was time for Rhaegar to marry, his father sent Steffon to Volantis. And between that and engagement with Elia there was no other candidates.

Elia wasn't the only girl with Valyrian blood in Westeros, there were others that we don't know yet. The Targaryens intermarried with many Houses. Elia's dragon blood was hardly something that Aerys would have taken into consideration on her case, since Elia was a very delicate girl with a fragile health, and his house needed heirs. Elia was still unmarried by the time she was 22/23, which means she did not had many suitors looking for her, even though she was a dornish princess. Aerys's reason to marry her to Rhaergar had to be personal, and not on a good sense.

16 hours ago, Megorova said:

You're misinterpreting entire situation. Aerys didn't married his heir and Crown Prince to Elia Martell just to jab Tywin. It's ridiculous

I'm not really interpreting it, i'm just followng the clues. That's what the writing suggests. And Tyrion agrees with it: "It all goes back and back, Tyrion thought, to our mothers and fathers and theirs before them. We are puppets dancing on the strings of those who came before us, and one day our own children will take up our strings and dance on in our steads."

16 hours ago, Megorova said:

For him blood was the most important.

At first it was, but for Aerys, shaming Tywin was the most important thing. That much is clear.

16 hours ago, Megorova said:

He even agreed to marry with Rhaella, even though they disliked each other. Blood was more important than personal feelings.

He didn't agree to marry her, he had not choice. he was forced to marry Rhaella. Just as he forced Rhaegar to marry Elia. The children don't ge to choose who they marry.

16 hours ago, Megorova said:

So if Aerys just wanted to spite Tywin, he would have arranged Rhaegar's engagement with Elia in 273, after Tywin refused marriage with Martells.

Known timeframe supports my version of events. 

The time frame is not something to go by. Aerys did not know what happened between the Martells and Tywin right after Tywin refused them. For Aerys, it was just Tywin's own business, he did not know how it all went down. Elia's mother only told Oberyn how Tywin treated her by the time she was dying.

Elia's mother and House Martell were shamed by Tywin, and the Lannisters were much more powerful, that was obvious. She certainly tought Tywin would be able to arrange Cersei's betrothal to Rhaegar. Tywin served Aerys for many years, he had to be rewarded. So it made sense for her to not try anything, it was a fight she couldn't win. But then, Aerys refuses Cersei, and the way he refused her was widely known in Westeros. Elia's mother would have heard about it as well. Now she just had to share her mutual hatred of Tywin with Aerys, and in time(quite some time), Aerys would agreed to betroth his son to her daughter who Tywin rejected so shamefully.

16 hours ago, Megorova said:

Ned married with Catelyn because it was necessary.

Yes, Ned needed the strenght of her house to fight against the Targaryens. They were at war, they would do whatever was necessary to win.

16 hours ago, Megorova said:

Rhaegar married with Elia because she had purest Targaryen blood, after all real Targaryens

No one in the books ever mentions or says anything about Elia's valyrian heritage, not even once. The writing does imply what her mother and Rhaegar's father had in common though, and that speaks volumes to me.

16 hours ago, Megorova said:

Aerys married with his sister because he saw it as his duty.

Aerys is not a man of duty. Barristan made it clear that not Aerys and nor Rhaella wanted that match, it was their father who forced them to marry. And they were empowerless to do anything about it, they were just kids.

16 hours ago, Megorova said:

Cersei married with Robert because it was what her father wanted

Yes, her father wanted power.

16 hours ago, Megorova said:

Petyr Baelysh participated in arrangement of Catelyn's murder, even though he supposedly loved her. But she was standing in his way to Iron Throne, so he got rid of her, and there was absolutely nothing personal in it.

Littlefinger is one of a kind.

 

 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

11 hours ago, Megorova said:

Petyr Baelysh participated in arrangement of Catelyn's murder, even though he supposedly loved her. But she was standing in his way to Iron Throne, so he got rid of her, and there was absolutely nothing personal in it.

No, he didn't. That's just an assumption on your part, but as far as we know, Littlefinger was not aware of the Red Wedding and Catelyn was not supposed to die there, she was supposed to be taken hostage, but she lost her mind and the Freys killed her. Littlefinger brokered the marriage between Joff and Marge for the Lannister-Tyrell alliance and had a hand in the murder of Joffrey, and if he had a hand in the Red Wedding, then it has not been revealed yet.

And Aerys started looking for a bride for Rhaegar after the Defiance of Duskendale when he thought that both Tywin and Rhaegar had plotted to have him eliminated so that Rhaegar could marry Cersei. Aerys marrying his son to Elia and doing it for spite for both he and Tywin isn't even that far fetched. Sure Elia had a smidgen of Targaryen blood from like 100 years before, but we saw how much that smidgen counted when Quentyn decided to steal himself a dragon. 

[theMADdestScientist_]

5 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

Sure Elia had a smidgen of Targaryen blood from like 100 years before, but we saw how much that smidgen counted when Quentyn decided to steal himself a dragon. 

The funny part is that no one ever mentions her dragon blood anywhere. TWOIAF is quite political about it, they chose her to reward the Martells after they helped the Targaryens defeat the Ninepenny Kings. Which is a version i simply don't believe.

ASOS is more direct about this. When we hear Oberyn speaking about his mother and Tywin, we see that she never forgot the humiliation Tywin put her through. And when we learn about Aerys's hatred of Tywin, it's not hard to see the bigger picture.

There were other girls for Rhaegar to marry, more powerful and more richer(and more healthy as well). Mace Tyrell's sisters comes to mind, so does Lysa Tully. Those regions had nothing against Aerys, but in the end, Aerys chose Elia, "a rather curious choice".

[Ralphis Baratheon]

On 1/5/2018 at 10:12 AM, theMADdestScientist_ said:

And for what reason would people tell this to her? it is better that she never learns about it. And Rhaegar probably would never let her know about it. Another thing is that Aerys was nuts by then, he had a problem with everyone. If it was Cersei's daughter that Rhaegar was presenting at court, Aerys would have found a reason to mock the child as well. Aerys would have found a reason to mock anyone, he had no respect for anyone anymore. It was barely something personal with Elia or the dornish, especialy because it was Aerys who married Elia to Rhaegar.

We'll have to agree to disagree that Elia never found out what Aerys said about Rhaenys. Despite the fact that everyone at court heard Aerys comment and gossip spreads at court through out all the Seven Kingdoms. We even learn about it, so I'm guessing quiet a few people heard and it was no secret. It's bound to come out especially since Elia knew Rhaegar brought Rhaenys to King's Landing to present Rhaenys to the King and Queen in front of all of court.

On 1/5/2018 at 10:12 AM, theMADdestScientist_ said:

It's not in King's Landing, that's what matters. She wasn't close to Aerys before anything happened. Actually, she was never close to Aerys for much of her marriage, as she moved to Dragonstone shortly after she married Rhaegar.

It was still in Aerys' reach which is how she ended up his hostage. Unlike Lyanna who was hidden in Dorne and Aerys had no way of getting to her.

On 1/5/2018 at 10:12 AM, theMADdestScientist_ said:

You're talking about the time he left to battle Robert? by then Elia and the kids were being used as hostages against not only Dorne, but Rhaegar as well.

So she was not kept so far away from Aerys after all then. Her being held in King's Landing would constitute as having to deal with Aerys. For if she and her kids were at Dragonstone they might have escaped with Viserys and Daenerys. 

Do you have a quote that says Aerys was using Elia as a hostage against Rhaegar? Or is that an assumption your making? From what I remember he used her against Dorne because Doran had not sent men in the beginning of the rebellion because Doran was furious with the way Rhaegar treated Elia.

The king reminded Lewyn Martell gracelessly that he held Elia and sent him to take command of the ten thousand Dornishmen
coming up the kingsroad.- Jaime V A Storm of Swords.

Then after Rhaegar died. Aerys refused to send Elia and her children back to Dragonstone with his own pregnant wife and child. Rhaegar was already dead so Elia could no longer be held against him as a hostage. 

[Hodor the Articulate]

On 1/5/2018 at 3:27 PM, Megorova said:

If that vision is not real, then we don't actually know where was Rhaegar, from the time when Tournament ended, and until time when he kidnapped Lyanna.

[snip]

Just to be clear, I don't think the whole vision was a hallucination, just the part where Rhaegar starts talking about "the song of ice and fire" etc. That's the part that Rhaegar says as he looks right at Dany. So the bit where Elia asks Rhaegar to play a song for Aegon, and the end where Rhaegar picks up his harp to do just that, I interpret as being things that actually happened.

As to why didn't take Aegon and Rhaenys to Dorne, he couldn't touch them by the time he got back to KL because Aerys took them hostage. Before that, they were safe on Dragonstone.

On 1/6/2018 at 0:54 PM, theMADdestScientist_ said:

It's never stated why exactly she was chosen to be Rhaegar's wife. TWOIAF says it was because the Targaryens wanted to reward the Martells for their support in the war of the ninepenny kings. Which is simply not true, Aerys doesn't care about that. Before Elia was chosen, Aerys was already trying to find a wife for Rhaegar for quite some time, which means Elia was not even on the list at the beginning.

I can't remember where it's mentioned, but I'm pretty sure it was Rhaegar who chose Elia for a wife, which makes sense given Aerys' attitude towards Dorne (Elia would have been as undesirable to him as a Lannister). I imagine it would have been a decent match, politically, because it would have lessened some of the tension between Dorne and Aerys.

[theMADdestScientist_]

5 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

I can't remember where it's mentioned, but I'm pretty sure it was Rhaegar who chose Elia for a wife.

Barristan says to Daenerys that Rhaegar married Elia out of duty, he didn't really chose her. And TWOIAF confirms this, Aerys did not let Rhaegar have any influence on the choice of his bride.

"In 278 AC, the king sent Lord Steffon across the narrow sea on a mission to Old Volantis, to seek a suitable bride for Prince Rhaegar, “a maid of noble birth from an old Valyrian bloodline.” That His Grace entrusted this task to the Lord of Storm’s End rather than his Hand, or Rhaegar himself, speaks volumes."

5 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

which makes sense given Aerys' attitude towards Dorne (Elia would have been as undesirable to him as a Lannister).

His attitude towards Dorne was the same attitude he had with everyone else by the end of his reign. He became a very hateful person, but before that he seemed to not have a problem with anyone.

5 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

I imagine it would have been a decent match, politically, because it would have lessened some of the tension between Dorne and Aerys.

There was no tensions between Aerys and Dorne. They supported and fought with him on the war of the ninepenny kings, and Elia's mother was a lady-in-waiting to Rhaella. Aerys knew dornish people well, and he was part dornish himself.