Garth's Empire of the Dawn Family.

AlaskanSandman · January 2, 2018

So this is a look at the Empire of the Dawn family, Garth the Green's family and how to the two merge. The clues i think piece together this family and the struggle of Ice and Fire.

Key to tree

I - Descends down to

I------I------I - Siblings, except under Rhaegar and Joanna, where it shows who they had kids with

I--------I - moving a branch over for space sake.

========= - Had children with,

Curse on Barrow of the First King

Garth the Gardener

God on Earth – 10,000 years

House Dayne?

I

I The Dawn Age

Gardeners, Targaryen branch? I Starks, crow branch Lannister, Raven Branch

Legit Legit Bastard Bastard Bastard

I---------------------------I----------------------------I ****---------------------------------------I---------------------------I

Garth gardener. Rose Of The Grey King- =========== Florys or Rowan Owen

Pear Emperor. == Red Lake. ======= Opal Emperor.1000 years I Oakenshield

House I Last of the Brandon of the Bloody Blade. House

Gardener I Fisher Queens . (Activated curse of Barrow king) Lannister

I (3000 years ago) I I

I House Stark I

House I I-----------------------------I

Targaryen? I I

I--------------------I------------------------I I-------------------------I---------------------------I I

Garth V?==Daeryssa ===Serwyn of Uthor of Hightower == Nissa Nissa==Brandon Breaker I

Mirror Shield Hugor of the hill I Amethyst Defeats his I

I Huzhor Amai I Empress brother night’s king I

I Azor Ahai- I--------------I I

I Brandon the Builder I I

I Bloodstone Emperor I-----------I------------I I

I Night’s King Stark==Stark==Ser Artys Arryn? I

I 2000 years ago. I I I

I Forges Dawn? Or Ice? I House Arryn? I

Tullys? - Builds Ice Wall I I I

I I--------------------I I I

I I I I

I I-------------I-----------I I---------I---------I I I

I Brandon I Eddard == Caitlynn Brynden Lysa ===Jon Arryn I

I I I Tully Tully Tully I I

I I I I I

I I Brandon Stark Sweet Robin Arryn I

I I The Crow and his cousin The Raven I

I I I

Rhaegar Tagaryen I Joanna Lannister

I I I

I-----------------------------------I-------------------------------------I vs I-------------------------I-----------------------I

Elia Martell Ashara Dayne Lyanna Stark Aerys II? Tywin Twyin

I I I I I I

Aegon Vi Daenerys Targayen Jon Snow Tyrion Lannister Cersei Jamie

Quote

The World of Ice and Fire - The Bones and Beyond: Yi Ti

In the beginning, the priestly scribes of Yin declare, all the land between the Bones and the freezing desert called the Grey Waste, from the Shivering Sea to the Jade Sea (including even the great and holy isle of Leng), formed a single realm ruled by the God-on-Earth, the only begotten son of the Lion of Night and MaidenMade-of-Light, who traveled about his domains in a palanquin carved from a single pearl and carried by a hundred queens, his wives. For ten thousand years the Great Empire of the Dawn flourished in peace and plenty under the God on-Earth, until at last he ascended to the stars to join his forebears.

Dominion over mankind then passed to his eldest son, who was known as the Pearl Emperor and ruled for a thousand years. The Jade Emperor, the Tourmaline Emperor, the Onyx Emperor, the Topaz Emperor, and the Opal Emperor followed in turn, each reigning for centuries...yet every reign was shorter and more troubled than the one preceding it, for wild men and baleful beasts pressed at the borders of the Great Empire, lesser kings grew prideful and rebellious, and the common people gave themselves over to avarice, envy, lust, murder, incest, gluttony, and sloth.

When the daughter of the Opal Emperor succeeded him as the Amethyst Empress, her envious younger brother cast her down and slew her, proclaiming himself the Bloodstone Emperor and beginning a reign of terror. He practiced dark arts, torture, and necromancy, enslaved his people, took a tiger-woman for his bride, feasted on human flesh, and cast down the true gods to worship a black stone that had fallen from the sky. (Many scholars count the Bloodstone Emperor as the first High Priest of the sinister Church of Starry Wisdom, which persists to this day in many port cities throughout the known world).

In the annals of the Further East, it was the Blood Betrayal, as his usurpation is named, that ushered in the age of darkness called the Long Night. Despairing of the evil that had been unleashed on earth, the Maiden-Made-of-Light turned her back upon the world, and the Lion of Night came forth in all his wroth to punish the wickedness of men.

God on Earth

I

I-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------I

Pearl Jade Tourmaline Onyx Topaz Opal

I

I-----------------------I

Amethyst Bloodstone

Now since these legends come from Asshai, near Yi-Ti, and Asshai speaks of Azor Ahai. So Azor Ahai and the Bloodstone Emperor may be connected.

Azor Ahai sounds very similar to Huzhor Amai, legendary ancient founder of Sarnor.

Quote

The World of Ice and Fire - Beyond the Free Cities: The Grasslands

Westeros remembers their conquerors as the Sarnori, for at its height their great kingdom included all the lands watered by the Sarne and its vassals, and the three great lakes that were all that remained of the shrinking Silver Sea. They called themselves the Tall Men (in their own tongue the Tagaez Fen). Long of limb and brown of skin they were, like the Zoqora, though their hair and eyes were black as night. Warriors, sorcerers, and scholars, they traced their descent to the hero king they called Huzhor Amai (the Amazing), born of the last of the Fisher Queens, who took to wife the daughters of the greatest lords and kings of the Gipps, the Cymmeri, and the Zoqora, binding all three peoples to his rule. His Zoqora wife drove his chariot, it is said, his Cymer wife made his armor (for her people were the first to work iron), and he wore about his shoulders a great cloak made from the pelt of a king of the Hairy Men.

So we Know he was born of the Last Fisher Queen on his mother’s side.

Now if he is also Azor Ahai, then we know who his father was also.

Opal Emperor ======== Last of the Fisher Queens

I

Bloodstone Emperor

Azor Ahai- Huzhor Amai

So now it would appear that we have our ancient figure from the past. At least based on eastern accounts.

Now let’s look at the west and Garth the Green’s family.

Quote

The World of Ice and Fire - The Reach: Garth Greenhand

There is disagreement even on his name. Garth Greenhand, we call him, but in the oldest tales he is named Garth Greenhair, or simply Garth the Green. Some stories say he had green hands, green hair, or green skin overall. (A few even give him antlers, like a stag.) Others tell us that he dressed in green from head to foot, and certainly this is how he is most commonly depicted in paintings, tapestries, and sculptures. More likely, his sobriquet derived from his gifts as a gardener and a tiller of the soil—the one trait on which all the tales agree. "Garth made the corn ripen, the trees fruit, and the flowers bloom," the singers tell us.

A few of the very oldest tales of Garth Greenhand present us with a considerably darker deity, one who demanded blood sacrifice from his worshippers to ensure a bountiful harvest. In some stories the green god dies every autumn when the trees lose their leaves, only to be reborn with the coming of spring. This version of Garth is largely forgotten.

So he’s a god on earth walking around for a super long time, then he has a big family.

·

Quote

  Garth the Gardener, ancestor of House Gardener

·         John the Oak, ancestor of House Oakheart

·         Gilbert of the Vines, ancestor of House Redwyne

·         Florys the Fox, ancestor of Houses Florent, Ball, and Peake

·         Maris the Maid, an ancestor of House Hightower

·         Foss the Archer, ancestor of House Fossoway

·         Brandon of the Bloody Blade, ancestor of Brandon the Builder and House Stark (according to some tales)

·         Owen Oakenshield

·         Harlon the Hunter and Herndon of the Horn, ancestors of House Tarly

·         Bors the Breaker, ancestor of House Bulwer

·         Rose of Red Lake, ancestor of House Crane

·         Ellyn Ever Sweet, ancestor of House Beesbury

·         Rowan Gold-Tree, ancestor of House Rowan

Quote

The World of Ice and Fire - The Reach: Garth Greenhand

Of all these, the greatest was his firstborn, Garth the Gardener, who made his home on the hill atop the Mander that in time became known as Highgarden, and wore a crown of flowers and vines. All of Garth Greenhand's other children did the Gardener homage as the rightful king of all men, everywhere. From his loins sprang House Gardener, whose kings ruled the Reach beneath the banner of a green hand for many thousands of years, until Aegon the Dragon and his sisters came to Westeros.

Quote

The World of Ice and Fire - The Reach: Garth Greenhand

Brandon of the Bloody Blade, who drove the giants from the Reach and warred against the children of the forest, slaying so many at Blue Lake that it has been known as Red Lake ever since.

Quote

The World of Ice and Fire - The Reach: Garth Greenhand

The list is long, and many are the legends, for there is scarce a noble house in all the Reach that does not boast of descent from one of Garth Greenhand's countless children. Even the heroes of other lands and kingdoms are sometimes numbered amongst the offspring of the Greenhand. Brandon the Builder was descended from Garth by way of Brandon of the Bloody Blade,

So of all of Garth the Green’s children, we know that Garth the Garndener was the leal eldest brother.

Garth the green

I

I-----------I---------I----------I------------I-----------I----------I-------------I----------I---------I----------I--------I-------------I

Garth John Gilbert Florys Maris Foss Owen Harlon Herndon Bors Rowan Ellyn Rose===Brandon

I

Brandon

Builder

Given Brandon the Bloody Blades proximity to Rose of Red Lakes, im guessing she is the unknown mother to Brandon the Builder. We’ll come back to this and why, but note her water presence. This we will also come back to, but think Last of the Fisher Queens.

Now if we bridge these two families together and only keep 2 brothers (the Eldest and another) plus a sister, then this is what we get

Garth the God on Earth

I

I----------------------------------------------------I-----------------------------------------------------I

Garth Gardener Rose of Red Lake Brandon of Bloody Blade

Pearl Emperor Last of the Fisher Queens ========= Opal Emperor

I

I-----------------------------I-----------------------------------------I

Brandon the Builder ===== The Corpse Queen Brandon the Breaker

Azor Ahai Nissa Nissa

Night’s King

So here you can see a couple extra inclusions. Azor Ahai is listed in the same spot as above, but now you see that he is Brandon the Builder, who may have been the Night’s King. Brought down by his brother Brandon the Breaker.

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Bran IV

"Some say he was a Bolton," Old Nan would always end. "Some say a Magnar out of Skagos, some say Umber, Flint, or Norrey. Some would have you think he was a Woodfoot, from them who ruled Bear Island before the ironmen came. He never was. He was a Stark, the brother of the man who brought him down." She always pinched Bran on the nose then, he would never forget it. "He was a Stark of Winterfell, and who can say? Mayhaps his name was Brandon. Mayhaps he slept in this very bed in this very room."

So now lets talk about Brothers against each other for a sister, and why I keep coming back to this. This begins with Serwyn of the Mirror Shield and Aemon the Dragon Knight and what is said/Known about both men.

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Bran II

Bran was going to be a knight himself someday, one of the Kingsguard. Old Nan said they were the finest swords in all the realm. There were only seven of them, and they wore white armor and had no wives or children, but lived only to serve the king. Bran knew all the stories. Their names were like music to him. Serwyn of the Mirror Shield. Ser Ryam Redwyne. Prince Aemon the Dragonknight.

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Sansa I

"It would be my pleasure, Mother," Joffrey said very formally. He took her by the arm and led her away from the wheelhouse, and Sansa's spirits took flight. A whole day with her prince! She gazed at Joffrey worshipfully. He was so gallant, she thought. The way he had rescued her from Ser Ilyn and the Hound, why, it was almost like the songs, like the time Serwyn of the Mirror Shield saved the Princess Daeryssa from the giants, or Prince Aemon the Dragonknight championing Queen Naerys's honor against evil Ser Morgil's slanders.

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Tyrion I

"Ser Barristan was the Lord Commander of Robert Baratheon's Kingsguard," Tyrion reminded her pointedly. "He and Jaime are the only survivors of Aerys Targaryen's seven. The smallfolk talk of him in the same way they talk of Serwyn of the Mirror Shield and Prince Aemon the Dragonknight.

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Sansa VI

I suggested it, that would have been too crude. But men in my party supplied grisly tales about how the mob had killed Ser Preston Greenfield and raped the Lady Lollys, and slipped a few silvers to Lord Tyrell's army of singers to sing of Ryam Redwyne, Serwyn of the Mirror Shield, and Prince Aemon the Dragonknight.

Quote

The Hedge Knight

Dunk stared at the grassy lists and the empty chairs on the viewing stand and pondered his chances. One victory was all he needed; then he could name himself one of the champions of Ashford Meadow, if only for an hour. The old man had lived nigh on sixty years and had never been a champion. It is not too much to hope for, if the gods are good. He thought back on all the songs he had heard, songs of blind Symeon Star-Eyes and noble Serwyn of the Mirror Shield, of Prince Aemon the Dragonknight, Ser Ryam Redywne, and Florian the Fool.

So as you can see, the two are often linked together. Now some quick things about the Reach, Valyria, Gardener Kings, and Serwyn.

Quote

The World of Ice and Fire - Ancient History: The Long Night

Archmaester Fomas's Lies of the Ancients—though little regarded these days for its erroneous claims regarding the founding of Valyria and certain lineal claims in the Reach and westerlands—

Quote

The World of Ice and Fire - Ancient History: The Age of Heroes

But when the singers number Serwyn of the Mirror Shield as one of the Kingsguard—an institution that was only formed during the reign of Aegon the Conqueror—we can see why it is that few of these tales can ever be trusted. The septons who first wrote them down took what details suited them and added others, and the singers changed them—sometimes beyond all recognition—for the sake of a warm place in some lord's hall. In such a way does some longdead First Man become a knight who follows the Seven and guards the Targaryen kings thousands of years after he lived (if he ever did). The legion of boys and youths made ignorant of the past history of Westeros by these foolish tales cannot be numbered.

Quote

The World of Ice and Fire - The Reach: The Gardener Kings

In those centuries of trial and tumult, the Reach produced many a fearless warrior. From that day to this, the singers have celebrated the deeds of knights like Serwyn of the Mirror Shield, Davos the Dragonslayer, Roland of the Horn, and the Knight Without Armor—and the legendary kings who led them, among them Garth V (Hammer of the Dornish), Gwayne I (the Gallant), Gyles I (the Woe), Gareth II (the Grim), Garth VI (the Morningstar), and Gordan I (Grey-Eyes).

So Serwyn of the Mirrow Shield was a Knight to a Targaryen King and a Kings Guard member who fought for a woman and is similar in every way dang near to Aemon the Dragon Knight. Brother to Aegon V. Knight is his Kings guard and rumored lover of their sister, the Queen Naerys.

So here is the cyclic story I think is being referred to and played out through multiple siblings connected to the Empire of the Dawn- Garth the Green Family. Here are a few trinities to name some.

Rhaeny vs Visenya = Aegon

Aegon IV vs Aemon Dragon Knight = Naerys

Daemon Blackfyre vs Daeron Targaryen= Daenerys Targaryen

Bloodraven vs Bittersteel= ShieraSea Star.

Daella vs Rhea = Aegon V

And even

Tyrion vs Jamie= Cersie seems bound to happen given the sides chosen.

This one Is a belief of mine, but tied to it all.

Aegon VI vs Jon Snow = Daenerys Targaryen.

So here you can see that I think there is a cyclic repeating theme here in the family.

Yet this doesn’t complete the picture, as there are two main players left in this picture that tie to this family.

Brandon Stark and Sweet Robin (Robert) Arryn

The crow and the Cousin

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Jon VIII

"The crow is the raven's poor cousin. They are both beggars in black, hated and misunderstood."

And indeed, Bran and Sweet Robin are cousins, through their mothers. Connected to House Went with red hair “kissed by fire”

I----------------------------------------------------I

Jon Arryn === Lysa Tully Caitlynn Tully====Eddard Stark

I I

Sweet Robin Arryn Brandon Stark

The Raven and his cousin The Crow

But now we’re speaking of cousins, and how did cousins come in to play when we’re talking about trios of siblings?

The Cousins came in through the first Trio. Garth Gardener, Rose Red Lake, and Bloody Brandon.

Garth the God on Earth

I

I----------------------------------------------------I-----------------------------------------------------I

Garth Gardener Rose of Red Lake Brandon of Bloody Blade

Pearl Emperor ============== Last of the Fisher Queens ========= Opal Emperor

I I

I I-----------------------------I-----------------------------------------I

I Brandon the Builder ===== The Corpse Queen Brandon the Breaker

I Azor Ahai Nissa Nissa

I Night’s King

Cousin Branch.

But who were the cousins? Remember? Serwyn and his brother he served, the Gardener Kings.

Quote

The World of Ice and Fire - The Reach: The Gardener Kings

In those centuries of trial and tumult, the Reach produced many a fearless warrior. From that day to this, the singers have celebrated the deeds of knights like Serwyn of the Mirror Shield, Davos the Dragonslayer, Roland of the Horn, and the Knight Without Armor—and the legendary kings who led them, among them Garth V (Hammer of the Dornish), Gwayne I (the Gallant), Gyles I (the Woe), Gareth II (the Grim), Garth VI (the Morningstar), and Gordan I (Grey-Eyes).

Now, Hard to say which of these kings, but I’ll just take Garth V for now just as a placer.

So the Trios under that group would be Garth V, Daeryssa, and Serwyn.

Now if you notice, a few generations have passed in the Gardener side that havnt passed on the Stark side yet.

I would venture to say this is due to Blood Magic extending their lifes, as per their dead alive motif. Grey King, Night’s King, Bloodstone Emperor, etc.

Curse on Barrow of the First King

Garth the Gardener

God on Earth – 10,000 years

House Dayne?

I

I The Dawn Age

Gardeners, Targaryen branch? I Starks, crow branch Lannister, Raven Branch

Legit Legit Bastard Bastard Bastard

I---------------------------I----------------------------I ****---------------------------------------I---------------------------I

Garth gardener. Rose Of The Grey King- =========== Florys or Rowan Owen

Pear Emperor. == Red Lake. ======= Opal Emperor.1000 years I Oakenshield

House I Last of the Brandon of the Bloody Blade. House

Gardener I Fisher Queens . (Activated curse of Barrow king) Lannister

I (3000 years ago) I I

I House Stark I

House I I-----------------------------I

Targaryen? I I

I--------------------I------------------------I I-------------------------I---------------------------I I

Garth V?==Daeryssa ===Serwyn of Uthor of Hightower == Nissa Nissa==Brandon Breaker I

Mirror Shield Hugor of the hill I Amethyst Defeats his I

I Huzhor Amai I Empress brother night’s king I

I Azor Ahai- I--------------I I

I Brandon the Builder I I

I Bloodstone Emperor I-----------I------------I I

I Night’s King Stark==Stark==Ser Artys Arryn? I

I 2000 years ago. I I I

I Forges Dawn? Or Ice? I House Arryn? I

Tullys? - Builds Ice Wall I I I

I I--------------------I I I

I I I I

I I-------------I-----------I I---------I---------I I I

I Brandon I Eddard == Caitlynn Brynden Lysa ===Jon Arryn I

I I I Tully Tully Tully I I

I I I I I

I I Brandon Stark Sweet Robin Arryn I

I I The Crow and his cousin The Raven I

I I I

Rhaegar Tagaryen I Joanna Lannister

I I I

I-----------------------------------I-------------------------------------I vs I-------------------------I-----------------------I

Elia Martell Ashara Dayne Lyanna Stark Aerys II? Tywin Twyin

I I I I I I

Aegon Vi Daenerys Targayen Jon Snow Tyrion Lannister Cersei Jamie

* I think that Tyrion will switch to the side of Jon and Dany in the conflict, while Aegon will be forced to side with Cersei and Jamie. Specially given how Tyrion has separated and pitted Aegon and Dany against each other.

So now we have a more complete look at the Family Tree and it’s members, its cousin branches and how it kind of plays into our current group of characters.

A family at war in the Dance of Dragons.

This is my theory so far and how I arrived to it.

AlaskanSandman · January 3, 2018

Now here is where im a little torn. There seems to be the issue of whether or not Aegon VI is real. Given the possibility he is a Blackfyre (cousins to Targaryens) pretender. Swapped in by Vary and Illyrio.

I havn't ignored this and think it may have played out before in the past, and may be an important part to the current narrative too. We do have a baby swap happening with Craster's kid and Mance's kid.

We know each branch of the cousins carried on past these points

I--------------------I------------------------I I-------------------------I---------------------------I

Garth V?==Daeryssa ===Serwyn of Mirror Shield Uthor of Hightower == Nissa Nissa==Brandon the Breaker

I I

I--------------------------I----------------------I Swap ? I-----------------I------------------------I

? ? ? ? ? ? ?

It may be that a baby swap from the Fire or Ice side, was made and is to be made.

I tend to think these narratives in the current story impact the past narrative as much as the past effects the present narrative.

I do also think these cousin branches merged (Blue+Red= Purple) and created some of the houses of the Riverlands and Valyria.

Aegon the pretender Blackfyre would play back to an early Trio and their struggle.

Bloodraven vs BitterSteel and the Blackyre rebellion= Shiera SeaStar.

AlaskanSandman · January 3, 2018

That or it has something to do with Aegon IV and his great bastards.

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Jon VIII

"The crow is the raven's poor cousin. They are both beggars in black, hated and misunderstood."

I--------------------------------I-----------------------------I

=================Aegon IV ============Naerys Aemon Dragonknight

I I

I---------------I------------------I------------------I <3 I-------------------------I

Bloodraven <3 Shiera vs Bittersteel Daemon <3 Daenerys vs Daeron===Mariah Martell

Crow Raven I I

Aegon Blackfyre? vs Daenerys Targaryen?

So maybe alot of Garth the Green's children were illegitimate? Maybe one of the illegitimate branches warred with the main branch. So another of the bastard branches sided with the main branch against the other bastard branch?

This would kind of explain the split from two groups of Ice and Fire (Blue and Red) to a third mixed group of ice and fire (Purple)

Garth the Green

I

I------------------------I-----------------------I-----------------------I------------------I

Garth Rose Brandon Owen ?

Gardener RedLake BloodyBlade Oakenshield Hmm which other brother?

Legit Legit Bastard Bastard Bastard

Raven The Crow

Florys or Rowan???

Ralphis Baratheon · January 3, 2018

Just wondering how a few things would go down in this theorized scenario.

How does Jon go from fighting in the North against the Boltons/Others to fighting (f)Aegon? Does this happen before or after the conflict with the Others? Up until he got knifed he only seemed to care about fighting the Others and rescuing his family from those that would harm them. How does he get involved in fighting for the Throne?

Let's say Jon and Dany both believe (f)Aegon is real, then he'd be the true heir to the Iron Throne, right? IF what you believe is true and Dany is Rhaegar's bastard with Ashara then Dany and Jon both come after Aegon in any line of succession. If that's the case shouldn't Daenerys just marry (f)Aegon and combine her strength to his if (f)Aegon wants to still marry her? She married Hizdahr in order to achieve peace in Meereen, why not do the same in Westeros? She has dragons and armies, (f)Aegon has armies and the better claim, in this scenario, where Dany is Ashara's. Jon really has nothing to offer at this point for Dany to choose him.

Also why would Jon want to oppose his true born half brother who comes before him in the line of succession? Jon didn't take Winterfell when it was offered to him by Stannis, even when he believed all his true-born half brothers were dead and his sisters were missing and possibly dead.

On the surface I'd be compelled to feel bad for (f)Aegon especially if he's the real deal. His only family is not only not supporting him, they are trying to steal his birthright. Does (f)Aegon do something that will make him seem like a villain? Like marry Cersei or ally with Euron?

AlaskanSandman · January 3, 2018

3 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Just wondering how a few things would go down in this theorized scenario.

How does Jon go from fighting in the North against the Boltons/Others to fighting (f)Aegon? Does this happen before or after the conflict with the Others? Up until he got knifed he only seemed to care about fighting the Others and rescuing his family from those that would harm them. How does he get involved in fighting for the Throne?

Let's say Jon and Dany both believe (f)Aegon is real, then he'd be the true heir to the Iron Throne, right? IF what you believe is true and Dany is Rhaegar's bastard with Ashara then Dany and Jon both come after Aegon in any line of succession. If that's the case shouldn't Daenerys just marry (f)Aegon and combine her strength to his if (f)Aegon wants to still marry her? She married Hizdahr in order to achieve peace in Meereen, why not do the same in Westeros? She has dragons and armies, (f)Aegon has armies and the better claim, in this scenario, where Dany is Ashara's. Jon really has nothing to offer at this point for Dany to choose him.

Also why would Jon want to oppose his true born half brother who comes before him in the line of succession? Jon didn't take Winterfell when it was offered to him by Stannis, even when he believed all his true-born half brothers were dead and his sisters were missing and possibly dead.

On the surface I'd be compelled to feel bad for (f)Aegon especially if he's the real deal. His only family is not only not supporting him, they are trying to steal his birthright. Does (f)Aegon do something that will make him seem like a villain? Like marry Cersei or ally with Euron?

Well alot of this would be thanks to Tyrion who was trying to throw a wrench in Illyrio's plans, since he doesn't trust Illyrio. Who's plan was to have Daenerys an Aegon meet in Volantis.

Thanks to Tyrion, this didn't happen, and instead, Aegon goes to conquer Westeros ahead of Daenerys. I believe this will cause a divide between Aegon and Dany.

From Dany's perspective, the man who housed her for a year, has been hiding the fact that her nephew is alive, if indeed it is really him. Which she will likely question. Given everything and her position not to trust the Mummer's Dragon. She wont.

While with Jon, we know she has to ally with him to take on the Others and the forces of darkness.

I think they'll defeat either the Others first, then deal with the south and Cersei and Aegon, or they'll deal with the south first, and then the Others.

Whether Aegon is real or not, it's in Cersei's interest to side with him against Daenerys, who had dragons. A marriage would keep her in power. Now Tommen sits the throne for now, but we know Cersei will watch her children die, and she'll be left alone in a situation of possible power. If she plays her cards right. Though i do wonder about the Tyrells, specially the two older brothers.

Back door hodor · January 3, 2018

Hi...very well thought out theory, and a very unique and interesting take on the mythology, world and timeline of Asoiaf, a minor criticism of the post in general is thast your charts are not all that east to follow...though to be honest I couldn't offer better way...

AlaskanSandman · January 3, 2018

13 minutes ago, Back door hodor said:

Hi...very well thought out theory, and a very unique and interesting take on the mythology, world and timeline of Asoiaf, a minor criticism of the post in general is thast your charts are not all that east to follow...though to be honest I couldn't offer better way...

Hahaha i know the main one kind of has alot to it but the others should be a little simpler like Garth's broken down one and the Empire of the Dawn broken down one. Just shows the the children spread left to right and their parents and or kids.

It is definitely hard trying to explain this all so this was my attempt to look at some of it as a family tree rather than a time line of events type of thread. Which also gets muddled down in the time accounts more than i wanted for this take. I just wanted to show how easily Garth's family and the Empire of the Dawn family over lap. Then from there you can bridge in other things such as Azor and Huzhor being the same person so you now have his father and mother, Opal Emperor and Last Fisher Queen.

I do really want to try to explain this as best as i can though as i feel it really offers some interesting insight into the relationship between the Starks and Lannisters (Both bastard branches, the crow and the raven) to the main family branch. Something i think given to us through examples like Aegon IV and the Great Bastards which gives us Bloodraven vs the Blackyres/Bittersteel.

AlaskanSandman · January 3, 2018

36 minutes ago, Back door hodor said:

Hi...very well thought out theory, and a very unique and interesting take on the mythology, world and timeline of Asoiaf, a minor criticism of the post in general is thast your charts are not all that east to follow...though to be honest I couldn't offer better way...

Tried to clean it up a lil more

Ralphis Baratheon · January 3, 2018

1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Whether Aegon is real or not, it's in Cersei's interest to side with him against Daenerys, who had dragons. A marriage would keep her in power. Now Tommen sits the throne for now, but we know Cersei will watch her children die, and she'll be left alone in a situation of possible power. If she plays her cards right. Though i do wonder about the Tyrells, specially the two older brothers.

I dunno. While at the start of the series Cersei was still in her prime despite having 3 kids it no longer seems to be the case. In the last few books we read that she's put on weight and is starting to lose her looks along with her sanity. She's got stiff competition in Margaery and Arianne too. Both are beautiful and much younger, and both can bring an army along with a marriage for (f)Aegon.

If the Tyrell's are as smart as I think they are there is a reason Willas Tyrell is still unwed despite being the heir to Highgarden while his younger brother Garlan has already married. He'd be a perfect suitor for Daenerys as her consort. She has a large army and dragons to feed and the Reach has a lot of food. From the little we know of Willas he's practically a Zoologist, which could mean he's also knowledgeable about dragon stuff.

AlaskanSandman · January 3, 2018

12 minutes ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

I dunno. While at the start of the series Cersei was still in her prime despite having 3 kids it no longer seems to be the case. In the last few books we read that she's put on weight and is starting to lose her looks along with her sanity. She's got stiff competition in Margaery and Arianne too. Both are beautiful and much younger, and both can bring an army along with a marriage for (f)Aegon.

If the Tyrell's are as smart as I think they are there is a reason Willas Tyrell is still unwed despite being the heir to Highgarden while his younger brother Garlan has already married. He'd be a perfect suitor for Daenerys as her consort. She has a large army and dragons to feed and the Reach has a lot of food. From the little we know of Willas he's practically a Zoologist, which could mean he's also knowledgeable about dragon stuff.

Hey Oh i agree, Cersei isn't a desirable pick for Aegon, but given both of their lack of options (Aegon will meet resistance as he seeks his conquest, and Cersei is already resisted by the Tyrells and Martells.) i think they will have no choice. And while Arianne is possible i think more than Margaery, i dont think Doran will trust Aegon. I think Doran will suspect Illyrio and Varys or at least that this is who has been working against his plans with Daenerys all along. I dont think Doran has forgotten the marriage pact or why it fell apart, or the events that happened after. Arianne is to gauge Aegon as of now, but i think she'll deem him unworthy, or at least Doran will.

As for Daenerys and Willas. That is an interesting thought, but given he's crippled, it's questionable if he can even have kids to establish a new family with Daenerys so that there is an heir. Though i do think he has an important role to play, im just not sure he can actually be a viable husband in bed, despite the other great attributes he carries and brings to the table. Daenerys is a lusty woman who does think. If she learns that young handsome Jon is actually the rightful heir, then their marriage is the most logical choice in re-establishing House Targaryen.

Just my opinion though

Ralphis Baratheon · January 3, 2018

52 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

but given he's crippled, it's questionable if he can even have kids to establish a new family with Daenerys

His crushed leg makes him crippled but that's all that it is, a bad leg. Considering the Tyrells wanted to marry Sansa to Willas so their children could have a claim to the North it's safe to assume Willlas could have consummated the marriage and gotten her pregnant. Even after Tywin moves in and marries Tyrion to Sansa to foil the Tyrell's plans he offers Cersei to marry Willas. I don't think they'd be doing all this if Willas couldn't walk or produce children.

AlaskanSandman · January 3, 2018

2 minutes ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

His crushed leg makes him crippled but that's all that it is, a bad leg. Considering the Tyrells wanted to marry Sansa to Willas so their children could have a claim to the North it's safe to assume Willlas could have consummated the marriage and gotten her pregnant. Even after Tywin moves in and marries Tyrion to Sansa to foil the Tyrell's plans he offers Cersei to marry Willas. I don't think they'd be doing all this if Willas couldn't walk or produce children.

Well good point on the children and i wasn't thinking about that. Though he is still much older. Further, no one else seems to want to marry him. I think Sansa should and would fit her arch better but that's just me. Idk, i just dont see Daenerys and Willas hooking up.

Back door hodor · January 3, 2018

Much easier to follow now...and I wasn't trying to nitpick or anything.sorry if it came off that way

I found a date that may help you. The world book states house martel has ruled all of dorne for seven hundred years...we know it took nymeria and mors martel nine years to unify dorne. As best I can tell Nymerias wanderings last 5 or 6 years, maybe 7. So this puts the destruction of the Rhyonar about 685 years ago. Though I can find no date for the start of the Roynoish civilization.

AlaskanSandman · January 4, 2018

11 hours ago, Back door hodor said:

Much easier to follow now...and I wasn't trying to nitpick or anything.sorry if it came off that way

I found a date that may help you. The world book states house martel has ruled all of dorne for seven hundred years...we know it took nymeria and mors martel nine years to unify dorne. As best I can tell Nymerias wanderings last 5 or 6 years, maybe 7. So this puts the destruction of the Rhyonar about 685 years ago. Though I can find no date for the start of the Roynoish civilization.

No no, not at all! I actually really try to pay attention to the constructive criticism given and can admit to not being the best presenter, though im trying to get better.

And that is a good catch! I was actually thinking about trying to combing this with my full time theory but was in the process of trying to figure out how to write it up. As this covers a hefty amount of materials from the books.

This thread led me to a question about the others that got shoved into the stupid show threads, not pleased about that lol specially if you read any of this that im sayin, is nothing like the show and worked completely off the books and those very time accounts like the one you found. That seems to be the nature of this site at time though, which makes tackling a thread like this hard. People often see what they want to see, rather than looking for answers.

As to the Rhoynar, i wanna look more at that time you found. I link the Rhoynar and their water magic to the Others, not through direct decent maybe, but they're on the same side of the coin. Opposing the Fire magic of Valyria.

I tend to think the Ghiscari, Andals, Rhoynar, and Sarnori all fall under this camp.

The First men were Valyrians i think, untill the Andals displaced the Fire culture of Westeros with their water one. Which is why them and the citidel are at odds with Valyria. Specially after Valyria destoryed the Rhoynar, Ghis, and Andals in Essos. Westeros would seem to be one of their last toe holds.

Back door hodor · January 4, 2018

Cool...To be honest I'm not actually convinced about the whole family tree but your take on the timeline intrigues me...

One thing I want ta ask though is why you think the Andals are in the water/ice camp. To me they have no magic to speak of(I think the 7 are the "false gods" of the story, and have always viewed the faith as an allegory for the corrupt Catholic church of the middle ages). And if they did I honestly would put them on the other side as many of The " miracles of the seven" seem to lean that way, for example, according to legend, The Smith himself taught the Andals ironworking...seems more fire to me personally

Regarding the dates I gave earlier, I must confess that I am new and inept at the quoting thing. But the bit about house martel ruling for 7 hundred years is in the dorne section, the part about Nymerias voyage is in the beginning, in the section titleled "The ten thousand ships"

AlaskanSandman · January 4, 2018

31 minutes ago, Back door hodor said:

Cool...To be honest I'm not actually convinced about the whole family tree but your take on the timeline intrigues me...

One thing I want ta ask though is why you think the Andals are in the water/ice camp. To me they have no magic to speak of(I think the 7 are the "false gods" of the story, and have always viewed the faith as an allegory for the corrupt Catholic church of the middle ages). And if they did I honestly would put them on the other side as many of The " miracles of the seven" seem to lean that way, for example, according to legend, The Smith himself taught the Andals ironworking...seems more fire to me personally

Regarding the dates I gave earlier, I must confess that I am new and inept at the quoting thing. But the bit about house martel ruling for 7 hundred years is in the dorne section, the part about Nymerias voyage is in the beginning, in the section titleled "The ten thousand ships"

Yea it may only be interesting to some. To me it the difference between knowing who Gandalf the Grey was and who Olorin the Maiar was sent by the Valar to contest his fellow Maiar, Sauron, servant of Melkor. Once of the Valar.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/149941-glass-candles-of-ghis/

In here you can see a little bit on my thoughts about the time line and what i think is happening.

For the Andals, look to the crystal sword of the Warrior son's. There is also mention in TWOIAF of the Andals and the Rhoynar having contact with each other and the Andals learning iron making from them.

When talking to Illyrio about Hugor, Illyrio tells Tyrion that his smith must have been Rhoynish.

There is alot more, but essentially the Andals come from the Grass lands near Ghis. They migrated to Andalos and then to Westeros where they displaced the first men, who were tied to the Valyrians.

The Rhoynish are known even for using water magic. This is the title of the story after all, a song of ice and fire.

Further, since arriving in Westeros, the Andals, and the Faith have apposed the Valyrians at every turn and even possibly helped to extinguish their house.

The Fattest Leech · January 4, 2018

7 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

When talking to Illyrion about Hugor, Illyrio tells Tyrion that his smith must have been Rhoynish.

This may be for a trickster reason that has to do with the current story.

7 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

There is alot more, but essentially the Andals come from the Grass lands near Ghis. They migrated to Andalos and then to Westeros where they displaced the first men, who were tied to the Valyrians.

The Rhoynish are known even for using water magic. This is the title of the story after all, a song of ice and fire.

The Rhoynar and their history really interests me. Can you, very briefly, give me the direct connections tied between the Rhoynish and the Valyrians... aside from the water people needing to escape the fire people. In which way are they “tied” together?

AlaskanSandman · January 4, 2018

1 minute ago, The Fattest Leech said:

This may be for a trickster reason that has to do with the current story.

The Rhoynar and their history really interests me. Can you, very briefly, give me the direct connections tied between the Rhoynish and the Valyrians... aside from the water people needing to escape the fire people. In which way are they “tied” together?

The Rhoynar and Valyrians? Or the Andals and the Rhoynar?

The Andals, like the Rhoynar, and the Sarnori, have Dark Hair and Dark Eyes.

I know this is not what the Maesters teach. This is what i think Martin is hinting at in his other clues.

For exp. House Hoare is said to be black of hair and black of heart due to their Andal taint.

The First Men were likely the Valyrians or pre-Valyrians rather. Part of which is mentioned and hinted at in the Gardener section of TWOIAF in which they first mention Serwyn of the Mirror shield having served in the King's Guard to a Targaryen King. Then turns around a page or two later and even list the Gardener King he served. Hinting among other places that the OG first men were Valyrians and that chivalry came from them.

The Andals tell lots of lies, like they built the round towered castle and that first men built in square. Even though the buildings of Braavos and Pentos are square and the Andals didn't leave a single ruined castle in Essos. Let alone a castle with round towers.

The Eyrie was even built out of jealousy of the castles of the first men. after that Arryn king had seen them.

Back door hodor · January 4, 2018

So just to clarify...do you think The "Crystal swords" are like the others ice blades?

I am aware that the Rhyonar probably taught the Andals and the Valyrians iron working, I was commenting that, to me, metal working world be something closer aligned to fire than ice, but that could be me applying my real world logic to the situation and not my magic Asoiaf logic

AlaskanSandman · January 4, 2018

1 minute ago, Back door hodor said:

So just to clarify...do you think The "Crystal swords" are like the others ice blades?

I am aware that the Rhyonar probably taught the Andals and the Valyrians iron working, I was commenting that, to me, metal working world be something closer aligned to fire than ice, but that could be me applying my real world logic to the situation and not my magic Asoiaf logic

I think they may indeed be a nod to the ancient sword known as Ice, held by House Stark. Which by description, the swords of the others, sound like the crystal blade used as the Warrior sons.

Lightbringer may have been a different sword than Ice. Each side essentially having their own magic sword. Adding to the confusion and issue of who had what?

I place Azor as Bran the Builder though along with Nissa Nissa. So this is why im forced to question which sword did Azor Ahai really use? What really happened to Nissa Nissa just then.

The sword of the Others can shatter steel, so they are definitely equally as impressive as Valyrian Steel.

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