The Last Jedi (Spoilers): Force-Choke or Tour-de-Force?

[Davrum]

13 minutes ago, Ran said:

... Johnson himself has defended his take on Luke as being about putting the character at rock-bottom ...

Johnson falls into the same trap JJ did with Han - the failure to let a childhood hero drop back into a mentor role so that a new hero can save the galaxy.

In The Force Awakens Han starts out at the bottom and finishes by leading the attack fleet to Starkiller Base then formulating the plan to set the explosives which lead to the base's destruction while Rey and Finn are relegated to the part of spectators. In The Last Jedi Luke starts out at the bottom and finishes by performing the climactic heroic act, while Rey is relegated to distracting enemy fighters and lifting rocks (an act so mundane for her the film even acknowledges it). Both Han and Luke have had more well-defined arcs and better hero's journeys in the Sequel Trilogy than the ST heroes have had. These two directors just can't get out of the way of their own hero worship when it comes to telling a good story.

Meanwhile, Creed, which had Rocky Balboa assume a support/mentor role, showed exactly how to have the courage to make a great saga sequel that hands the reins to the next generation and feeling fresh even while also clearly following many of the same the beats as the original.

 

5 hours ago, dbunting said:

Since when can someone survive in space???

Since when can someone lift an X-wing with their mind?

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

1 hour ago, Darth Richard II said:

Sssshhhh it's a different galaxy so physics are different!

Completely bizarre more like.

[Darth Richard II]

1 hour ago, Rubicante said:

Did Yoda ever really have a plan in the Empire Strikes Back?  Was he waiting for Luke to get old enough so he could train him?  Or was he content on retiring on Dagaboh?  His motivations were never totally clear to me.

Per new EU stories Yoda was waiting to train one of them and was dissapointed he got Luke instead of Leia.

[HexMachina]

10 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Sonic charges in the vacuum of space.  I rolled my eyes so hard when that scene started I thought they would fall out of my head.

It’s space fantasy, why is adherence to real life physics important? It’s not hard sci-if so I couldn’t care less if the laws of physics are disregarded. 

[AndrewJ]

1 hour ago, Davrum said:

Johnson falls into the same trap JJ did with Han - the failure to let a childhood hero drop back into a mentor role so that a new hero can save the galaxy.

In The Force Awakens Han starts out at the bottom and finishes by leading the attack fleet to Starkiller Base then formulating the plan to set the explosives which lead to the base's destruction while Rey and Finn are relegated to the part of spectators. In The Last Jedi Luke starts out at the bottom and finishes by performing the climactic heroic act, while Rey is relegated to distracting enemy fighters and lifting rocks (an act so mundane for her the film even acknowledges it). Both Han and Luke have had more well-defined arcs and better hero's journeys in the Sequel Trilogy than the ST heroes have had. These two directors just can't get out of the way of their own hero worship when it comes to telling a good story.

Meanwhile, Creed, which had Rocky Balboa assume a support/mentor role, showed exactly how to have the courage to make a great saga sequel that hands the reins to the next generation and feeling fresh even while also clearly following many of the same the beats as the original.

 

In my opinion, the big hero moment in TFA is Rey fighting and defeating (wounded) Kylo Ren. We also have Poe blowing up Star-Killer base.

You're right that Luke gets the biggest moment in TLJ. However, I'm pretty sure Rey will be saving the day in the third movie. I think it would be a bit repetitive if she does so in all three movies. It makes perfect sense to me that she takes a bit of a back-seat in this movie. She still gets her great scene in Snoke's throne-room, however. And she was the agent responsible for bringing Luke to the table for his big showdown. So she plays a very significant role in the movie.

[Darth Richard II]

11 minutes ago, HelenaExMachina said:

It’s space fantasy, why is adherence to real life physics important? It’s not hard sci-if so I couldn’t care less if the laws of physics are disregarded. 

Well I did know I was going to lose cred when I said I like that scene.

[HexMachina]

27 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

Well I did know I was going to lose cred when I said I like that scene.

Yeah well I dislike the prequels a lot but the idea of critiquing Star Wars because it defies the laws of physics is stupid to me because it’s not a film you should go into expecting realistic science for  

eta; and, more importantly, it has never been sold as a film that would do this. It’s always been very much fantasy in space with no real concern for hard sci-if elements. 

[Liver and Onions]

Okay, sorry, I don't have time to go through this thread or the previous two? three? to get everyone else's thoughts. But I finally got to see the movie myself. And I loved it.

I do see some of the complaints as valid, and maybe they'll bug me more on a rewatch. I was half-convinced Admiral Holdo was a spy herself (Poe does call her a traitor, but that seems to be more his perspective on her escape plan)- it seemed that the way the First Order was tracking them had to be a twist. I thought, does Finn have a tracking device implanted for wayward Stormtroopers? Is Holdo a traitor? Boba Felt finally crawled out of that Sarlacc and is clinging to the side of the ship? 

I felt this film had a sort of Rogue One vibe going- since everyone seemed to like the last movie where people were dying nobly en masse for the greater good, this one kept that trend up. I know that even from the first Star Wars, the pilots were getting blown up to drive home the cost of war, so this could be a false perception on my part. 

A few things:

It was great seeing Luke Skywalker again. Mark Hamill was awesome. Even with the debates about what Luke would have done here and there, and why, I wasn't disappointed. And now he is more possible than we can possibly imagine... (also, loved Force Ghost Yoda's lightening attack. But who explained this to the Jedi Nuns? They aren't going to be happy.) 

I loved the grumpy officer in charge of the dreadnought ship at the beginning. After Rose's sister drops the bombs (maybe they're magnetic and attracted only to bad guy ships and that's why they fall?), he just glares at the oncoming explosion as if he could shame it away with pure disapproval. I hope they had fun filming that scene. 

Leia's space-moment nearly brought me to tears, for reasons... And then she Forces herself back to the ship, and it was awesome. I know it won't happen, but I still want her to smack some sense into Kylo Ren in the last movie, and that beats the whole First Order.

I also loved when she laser-blast-stuns Poe for being a dink. I do like Poe, but he was being a dink here. 

I love Finn- in my opinion, he got some of the best defiant hero moments. I love him sticking up for Rose to get her medallion back. I love when the code breaker guy tries to sell Finn on the middle ground towards the end, and Finn isn't having it- he knows he's standing on the right side. 

I love Rose, too. I didn't mind the tangent to the casino, since it worked for character and world building. I liked how they reversed the "hive of scum and villainy" description. Even the music was a callback.

Kylo Ren remains a good villain- sympathetic but ultimately digging deeper into his hole of hate. I know some people are disappointed that Snoke got taken out, but I wonder if he, too, won't become stronger as a Force Ghost...

Rey was also great. I think her parents being just some random people probably works out for the best. I do wish Chewie, R2, and 3P0 had more scenes, but they at least got some fun stuff to do.

My biggest complaint, though? Not enough Porgs! So 1 out of five stars. 

[Davrum]

1 hour ago, AndrewJ said:

In my opinion, the big hero moment in TFA is Rey fighting and defeating (wounded) Kylo Ren. We also have Poe blowing up Star-Killer base.

You're right that Luke gets the biggest moment in TLJ. However, I'm pretty sure Rey will be saving the day in the third movie. I think it would be a bit repetitive if she does so in all three movies. It makes perfect sense to me that she takes a bit of a back-seat in this movie. She still gets her great scene in Snoke's throne-room, however. And she was the agent responsible for bringing Luke to the table for his big showdown. So she plays a very significant role in the movie.

Defeating Kylo is certainly a big thing for Rey in The Force Awakens, and is a really good scene with at least one particularly cool money moment.

But in that film the big thing for The Galaxy Far, Far Away, as it were, is to take down Starkiller Base, and OT megahero Han Solo is infinitely more instrumental in that happening than either of the new ST heroes Rey or Finn are, both in terms of finding a way to get the shields down (after he found out "hero" Finn put the lives of millions and the fate of the entire galaxy in grave danger with a massive lie) and finding a way to wreck the SKB's other defenses so that Poe could swoop in and do the easy bit. While Han saves the entire galaxy Rey is on the sidelines with Finn.

Rey's significance in The Last Jedi is also sloppily handled. Her main act aside from distracting enemy fighters and lifting rocks is to be a pawn in Kylo's coup. Aside from that she gets not much more than further heartache from her time with Luke, and he gets nothing but further heartache from her, as he's pushed so much further down into his personal darkness that he decides just moping around the jedi temple isn't enough, he also has to burn it all down! That's when Master Yoda - the actual agent responsible for bringing Luke to the table for his big showdown - turns up and turns him around, helping Luke get his mojo back so he's ready to take his place as the central figure in the film's dramatic climax (while supposed new hero Rey is barely even a spectator this time).

[Darth Richard II]

Heh, I almost bought a talking porg plush today.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

1 hour ago, HelenaExMachina said:

It’s space fantasy, why is adherence to real life physics important? It’s not hard sci-if so I couldn’t care less if the laws of physics are disregarded. 

Sonic charges in a vacuum.  That’s as bad as launching incendiaries in a vacuum.  There is nothing there to carry either the sonic wave or the flame in my counter example.

Perhaps the void in the Star Wars Universe isn’t a vacuum?  It would explain why the fighters maneuver in space the way they do... and how Leia survived the Bridge attack.

[Rubicante]

1 hour ago, Darth Richard II said:

Well I did know I was going to lose cred when I said I like that scene.

It's all good.  I like Star Wars Episode 3, so I am much further down the credibility list than you.

[Darth Richard II]

1 hour ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Sonic charges in a vacuum.  That’s as bad as launching incendiaries in a vacuum.  There is nothing there to carry either the sonic wave or the flame in my counter example.

Perhaps the void in the Star Wars Universe isn’t a vacuum?  It would explain why the fighters maneuver in space the way they do... and how Leia survived the Bridge attack.

Well yeah, there also arn't explosions in space. Or sound.

[Darth Richard II]

1 hour ago, Rubicante said:

It's all good.  I like Star Wars Episode 3, so I am much further down the credibility list than you.

I dunno, I like 3 too, just, not as much as you. And the scene I like is from 2. Even I, as a giant star wars fanboy, think that one is pretty shit.

[Rubicante]

3 hours ago, Darth Richard II said:

I dunno, I like 3 too, just, not as much as you. And the scene I like is from 2. Even I, as a giant star wars fanboy, think that one is pretty shit.

Yeah, Attack of the Clones is not only the worst Star Wars movie (in my opinion), it may be one of the worst movies ever made.  I remember leaving the theater from that one thinking "I don't think I am going to watch episode three". 

I think the biggest mistake Lucas made with the prequels (aside from writing the dialogue and directing), was devoting an entire episode to ten year old Anakin.  I know Lucas wanted to show "good Anakin", but he really dug himself a hole by having to jam too much into episodes 2 and 3.  Despite the fact I do like episode 3, there wasn't enough time to make Anakin's turn believable.  I can buy that Anakin would cut off Mace Windu's hand in order to save Palpatine, who he believed possessed knowledge of the dark side to help him save his wife, but this really just should have been an introduction to him starting down the dark side path.  It's hard to believe in the scene immediately after this he would march on the Jedi Temple and (along with the clones) kill every single person in there.

My question is "How do you show a correct turn to the dark side?".  Anakin's turn is too fast, and we pretty much get no explanation as to why Kylo Ren was drawn to the dark side in the first place (aside from his uncle "sensing the dark" and for a moment contemplating killing Kylo).  Are three movies enough to show a proper turn?

[Darth Richard II]

Nah, while I hate Episode 2 mostly, I can think of 5 worse films of the top of my head(all 5 transformers), plus I'd sit through Hayden Christian and Jar Jars Big Bombad 4 hour adventure Mystery Tour featuring Lena Dunham and Dan Qualye then 5 fucking minutes of Crystal Skull.

Ahem, but yeah Ep 2 is pretty bad.

[Rubicante]

7 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

Nah, while I hate Episode 2 mostly, I can think of 5 worse films of the top of my head(all 5 transformers), plus I'd sit through Hayden Christian and Jar Jars Big Bombad 4 hour adventure Mystery Tour featuring Lena Dunham and Dan Qualye then 5 fucking minutes of Crystal Skull.

Ahem, but yeah Ep 2 is pretty bad.

I stand corrected.  My brother and I actually did walk out of the first Michael Bay Transformers movie near the end.  Likewise with Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull.  Leprechaun 4: In Space is a pretty awful movie, although I thought it was hilarious when I was 15 years old.

[Nictarion]

Some good counterpoints by Jenny Nicholson (from Millenial Falcon) to a lot of the criticism of TLJ. I agree with pretty much everything she said.  

 

[mormont]

12 hours ago, Ran said:

I don't think I find that reasonable when he talks about his having a problem with Luke's presentation in the present tense on several occasions in these post-screening junkets. These were not concerns in the past, they are concerns he has now even after watching the film. This doesn't change the fact that, as a professional, he's proud of having done what his director asked, and proud that the film is entertaining and a financial success.

Mmm. I think arguing about tenses in the face of Hamill saying he was wrong is unpersuasive: it seems to me the former is ambiguous, being the sort of thing one might do without thinking, and the latter is not. Insofar as Hamill's actual opinion goes, though, and to the extent that it matters, I only really mind if people are presenting it falsely, which I know you aren't, but others on the thread continue to do.

ETA - I feel like I should clarify that a bit. Basically I think Hamill's comments have been blown out of all proportion, regardless of tense or anything else. I think he, himself, would agree with that and that's why he's now saying things like 'I was wrong'.

I'm not saying that he wouldn't have appreciated a different approach. He may very well have. I'm not saying he wasn't surprised by Johnson's approach, or that he had no difficulty accepting it. He's on the record as saying those things and his later comments don't appear intended to take them back.

I am saying that his 'concerns' very much got weaponised by people looking to justify their own dislike of the film. I dislike seeing that, because I do have a good deal of respect for Mark and hate to see his words being used like that. You tend to use them to illuminate points you're making yourself, but others have tended to use them as a club to beat the film with. The difference is acknowledging that there is nuance to Hamill's opinion.

Quote

I don't know that you enter into it. Hamill clearly sees the Luke of the film as someone who quit and gave up. The character is literally made to say he came to Ahch-to to die in the film, and Johnson himself has defended his take on Luke as being about putting the character at rock-bottom. 

Not seeing a substantial difference here with Yoda going to Dagobah. Retrospectively, the prequels suggest there was more to this but at the time, and for many years afterward, it certainly appeared that Yoda was hiding out on Dagobah waiting for death in exactly the same way Luke is in TLJ.

[Happy Ent]

12 hours ago, Seli said:

Since always. For a short while at least.

A plotpoint in recent Doctor Who (Oxygen), and in The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy. And Star Trek Discovery if I remember that scene correctly.

 

And, famously, in 2001. Just remember to close you eyes (because the water will boil, damaging your retina.) I may be misremembering, but isn’t that actually a plot point? Whathisname needs to keep his eyes closed, so he fumbles with some kind of bulkhead?