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The Last Jedi (Spoilers): Force-Choke or Tour-de-Force?


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13 minutes ago, Corvinus said:

People in China prefer masterpieces such as Transformers, Pirates of the Caribbean, and Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. (The Michael Bay ones)

Star Wars being a 40-year-old franchise almost certainly has something to do with this. Came out in the 70s and early 80s when China was not particularly open to foreign films. Hell, ANH didn't show in a movie theatre in China until 2015! So you have this old franchise, heavy on a sense of history and continuity, but the older films are going to be largely inaccessible -- either because without the nostalgia and an understanding of the films' place in the genre, they may not seem that appealing, or production values (read VFX) will turn viewers off compared to modern stuff.

So, yeah, Chinese filmgoers may have somewhat unsophisticated taste compared to... well, I don't know, because shit like Transformers and Pirates keeps being made in the U.S., so who are we to throw stones from our glass houses? But Star Wars has some very specific problems that are hard to surmount in China. China was 40 years late to the zeitgeist.

Were I Disney, I'd push hard on getting into the Chinese market by doing something like making a story from some new corner of the galaxy far, far away. Get someone like Zhang Yimou, Wong Kar-Wai, or Ang Lee to direct it, feature Asian actors and Asian stunt teams, etc. So it's almost a reboot, a fresh start for Star Wars in China, and if it succeeds then you can roll some of the characters and stories into the broader franchise off of that momentum.

 

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24 minutes ago, Nictarion said:

Didn’t they cut Finn out of the poster for TFA? There could be some other reasons this trilogy isn’t doing well over there...

Hadn't heard that, but looked it up and it seems true.

That said, it's weird because athletes like Kobe Bryant have huge fan followings in China. I remember reading an article about the most successful Western actor in China (forget his given name, but he's known as Cao Cao there) and he appeared in one of the Ip Man movies in a pretty good role but was bothered that a bigger role was going to someone else... who turned out to be Mike Tyson.

Maybe it's just athletes that they go crazy over? Though that said, Fate of the Furious is like the #2 biggest grossing film in Chinese history and the Rock is biracial. And Google tells me Chadwick Boseman is actually pretty popular. I suppose we'll have to see how Black Panther does in relation to the other Marvel films.

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Yeah, from the outside looking in it seems that China is racist in weird ways but not actually, you know, hating/turning off these things. Like Ran says, they looove the F&F franchise over there and that's (weirdly) Hollywood's breakthrough franchise when it comes to diversity.

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I think the thing about Chinese audiences not going to see films with black characters may be one of those Hollywood myths that becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. You know, like how female action leads don't sell? In the same way, every success (eg Will Smith) is labeled an exceptional case and every failure treated as proving the rule. There's just something about the idea that smacks of studio execs relying on cliches over facts. Maybe it's the slightly patronising 'oh, they're so backward' attitude. I don't know.

But anyway, blaming any problems Star Wars has in China on the casting of Finn seems pretty unlikely to me.

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33 minutes ago, mormont said:

I think the thing about Chinese audiences not going to see films with black characters may be one of those Hollywood myths that becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. You know, like how female action leads don't sell? In the same way, every success (eg Will Smith) is labeled an exceptional case and every failure treated as proving the rule. There's just something about the idea that smacks of studio execs relying on cliches over facts. Maybe it's the slightly patronising 'oh, they're so backward' attitude. I don't know.

But anyway, blaming any problems Star Wars has in China on the casting of Finn seems pretty unlikely to me.

I think it is a possible reason. There is tons of over, uncontroversial racism in China against black people, who are regularly stereotyped as all coming from Africa and having AIDS. It's part of their politics and every day life, from the infamous commercials to cases of black teachers not being allowed to teach English at schools. Kobe Bryant is a pretty big exception. Now, I'm not saying that this is the only reason Star Wars is failing in China (the lack of nostalgia must play a factor), but I can't imagine it helps. 

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40 minutes ago, Caligula_K3 said:

I think it is a possible reason. There is tons of over, uncontroversial racism in China against black people, who are regularly stereotyped as all coming from Africa and having AIDS. It's part of their politics and every day life, from the infamous commercials to cases of black teachers not being allowed to teach English at schools. Kobe Bryant is a pretty big exception. Now, I'm not saying that this is the only reason Star Wars is failing in China (the lack of nostalgia must play a factor), but I can't imagine it helps. 

Yeah, this is a good example of what I mean. In response to scepticism about the idea that casting black actors hurts films, people give anecdotes about how backward Chinese people are. No facts are provided, no irony detected.

Look, people in the USA are pretty bloody racist. It's part of US politics and everyday life. Stereotypes? Discrimination? Yeah, all that plus open racism from the highest level. It doesn't hurt box office takings.

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50 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

Also I wouldn't use the Chinese box office as any indicator of quality considering transformers and the mummy were both smash hits over there.

Just to be clear, I wasn't trying to. It's just interesting because it's such a huge market and companies have gone out of their way to cater to it in the past. I remember Iron Man 3 had a special Chinese version with added scenes featuring actors who were big in China. The Red Dawn remake digitally changed the bad guys from Chinese to North Koreans after it'd been shot. So it's not inconceivable to think that Disney might make some changes in an effort to grab the attention of Chinese audiences in future Star Wars movies. 

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1 hour ago, Darth Richard II said:

I read that the OT never played over there and the prequels didn't pull in much cash either. TFA seems to have been an exception. Also I wouldn't use the Chinese box office as any indicator of quality considering transformers and the mummy were both smash hits over there.

And whose box office has been? I mean, let we be honest, the top grossing movies in USA/Europe/Australia/Russia etc are rarely being lauded as jewels of cinematography. Money makes Hollywood and the world go round :D 

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On 1/13/2018 at 5:09 AM, Risto said:

I know many will consider this blasphemy, but the dialogue reminded me of Season 6/7 of GoT. And Poe being the new Solo annoyed me as hell.
 

I agree that they are trying to make Poe the new Solo, but it isn't working.  He isn't funny at all, and I cringe every scene he is in.  I actually prefer Jar Jar Binks to Poe.  That's how much I dislike the character.

And yes, the dialogue is Game of Thrones level bad.  I would also add that there are Game of Thrones level plot holes in The Last Jedi.  It's funny that you would potentially consider that blasphemy.  Most people on this forum dislike the television series, including the two creators of this website.  Although season 1 of the show was really good, the show was really bad in seasons 2-5 anytime the show writers tried to do anything different from the source material.  And seasons 6 and 7 are borderline unwatchable.  But anyhow, that's a whole other discussion. 

 

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So I just watched TFA, TLJ, and Rogue One, again, in that order, over the past few nights.  Three thoughts:

1.  Anyone saying TFA doesn't strongly hint at Rey's parent(s) being mysteriously special is out of their gourd.  It's hinted at almost every time she's on screen in that movie.

2.  I liked Han's death scene in TFA.  He essentially warns Ben of Snoke using him - which is of course obvious, but grants context and consistency to the red room scene in TLJ.

3.  Rogue One is head and shoulders above the other two IMHO.  I recognize it did not have the demands the other two had, but still.  I could watch that fucker again and again, whereas I don't wanna bother with TFA nor TLJ again.

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44 minutes ago, dmc515 said:

3.  Rogue One is head and shoulders above the other two IMHO.  I recognize it did not have the demands the other two had, but still.  I could watch that fucker again and again, whereas I don't wanna bother with TFA nor TLJ again.

Ironically, Rogue One had more even demands and constraints on it than the other two had, and yet it still somehow feels like the most expansive, adventurous and epic of the three Disney Wars films so far.

 

1 hour ago, Rubicante said:

I agree that they are trying to make Poe the new Solo, but it isn't working. 

I don't really get this. 

Do you mean because he's always getting scolded by Leia?

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14 minutes ago, Davrum said:

I don't really get this. 

Do you mean because he's always getting scolded by Leia?

I agree that Poe is the "new age" Han, one way or another.  It's problematic on many levels that have been heavily ruminated within this thread.  Anyway, disregarding the argument Poe should be executed for treason, he does not attain the charisma of Ford's Han.  I think some of this is because the new movies are trying way too hard.  One "then I'll see you in hell!" is infinitely better than the belabored opening comedic scene with Poe in TLJ.

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13 hours ago, Ran said:

So, yeah, Chinese filmgoers may have somewhat unsophisticated taste compared to... well, I don't know, because shit like Transformers and Pirates keeps being made in the U.S., so who are we to throw stones from our glass houses? But Star Wars has some very specific problems that are hard to surmount in China. China was 40 years late to the zeitgeist.

To be really clear, Chinese filmgoers eat Transformers and Pirates and shit like that for breakfast. And basically any superhero movie ever, for that matter. Including things like Justice League. 

This is in general true of ALL international markets, because any kind of history or nuance tends to be obliterated in translation, and a lot of countries cut the film to only the good bits. I understand that Transformers has something like a 1 hour runtime in some places.

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13 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

To be really clear, Chinese filmgoers eat Transformers and Pirates and shit like that for breakfast.

Only recently - the early films of both franchises made more in Japan.  I really don't think the Chinese market is ready to be generalized in any way.  Don't mean to single you out, but I'm sick of reading prognostications about a market none of us have any expertise in and are only speculating.  The Chinese market is clearly changing - and opening up for the better.  Let's at least wait for more data before we ascribe any motives towards their tendencies.

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1 minute ago, dmc515 said:

Only recently - the early films of both franchises made more in Japan.  I really don't think the Chinese market is ready to be generalized in any way.  Don't mean to single you out, but I'm sick of reading prognostications about a market none of us have any expertise in and are only speculating.  The Chinese market is clearly changing - and opening up for the better.  Let's at least wait for more data before we ascribe any motives towards their tendencies.

Well, that's largely to do with the film market in China in general - nothing made a ton of money overseas in 2000 by comparison to what it makes now. 

The list of top-grossing movies is not exactly helpful to your point. In particular, let me point out that of the 50 top movies on that list, only one of them came out before 2012 (Avatar) and only 3 did that year. And one of those three was a re-release of Titanic. Their market is exploding, and it's exploding for things like...Warcraft, or two different Transformers movies or the xXx sequel. This isn't entirely dissimilar to the US market, mind you, but there are a number of movies that didn't do jack in the US that did extraordinarily well overseas, and those tend to be high on action, SFX, low on intricate plot or history and low on any need of backstory.

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