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The Last Jedi (Spoilers): Force-Choke or Tour-de-Force?

267 posts in this topic

12 hours ago, Seli said:

Since always. For a short while at least.


A plotpoint in recent Doctor Who (Oxygen), and in The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy. And Star Trek Discovery if I remember that scene correctly.

 

And, famously, in 2001. Just remember to close you eyes (because the water will boil, damaging your retina.) I may be misremembering, but isn’t that actually a plot point? Whathisname needs to keep his eyes closed, so he fumbles with some kind of bulkhead?

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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, mormont said:

Mmm. I think arguing about tenses in the face of Hamill saying he was wrong is unpersuasive: it seems to me the former is ambiguous, being the sort of thing one might do without thinking, and the latter is not.

In the very same interview, he also notes he still has problems getting his head around it, and in the very same interview he wraps up indicating this isn't Lucas's Luke, it's a new Luke (shades of his "Jake Skywalker" remark) for a new generation.

I have no problem reconciling all of Hamill's remarks as being as I said: it's a good, entertaining movie he was proud to be a part of despite it having a version of Luke that he does not agree with but which he performed as directed.

 

Quote

Not seeing a substantial difference here with Yoda going to Dagobah. Retrospectively, the prequels suggest there was more to this but at the time, and for many years afterward, it certainly appeared that Yoda was hiding out on Dagobah waiting for death in exactly the same way Luke is in TLJ.

You'd have to ask Hamill about Yoda, and Obi-Wan for that matter. But for my part, I think Hamill's vision of Luke-as-Jedi was in some ways a beginning of a new, more vital Jedi order where the sentiment "Jedi don't quit" was a contrast to Yoda's "Into exile I must go" or whatever it is. I forget if it's from one of Zahn's books or not, but I always liked the sentiment that Luke was not the last of the old Jedi, but the first of the new, and with this comes room for thinking about and doing things differently.

The real operative part of Hamill's statement, in any case, is about his belief that Luke, specifically, would not quit, and his understanding of Lucas's plans also did not have Luke quitting. Johnson's version of Luke did, regardless of what we think of Yoda or Obi-Wan in the earlier films.

Edited by Ran

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1 hour ago, Happy Ent said:

And, famously, in 2001. Just remember to close you eyes (because the water will boil, damaging your retina.) I may be misremembering, but isn’t that actually a plot point? Whathisname needs to keep his eyes closed, so he fumbles with some kind of bulkhead?

I have to shamefully admit I've never seen the movie. And can't remember much of the book.

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9 hours ago, Davrum said:

Defeating Kylo is certainly a big thing for Rey in The Force Awakens, and is a really good scene with at least one particularly cool money moment.

But in that film the big thing for The Galaxy Far, Far Away, as it were, is to take down Starkiller Base, and OT megahero Han Solo is infinitely more instrumental in that happening than either of the new ST heroes Rey or Finn are, both in terms of finding a way to get the shields down (after he found out "hero" Finn put the lives of millions and the fate of the entire galaxy in grave danger with a massive lie) and finding a way to wreck the SKB's other defenses so that Poe could swoop in and do the easy bit. While Han saves the entire galaxy Rey is on the sidelines with Finn.

Rey's significance in The Last Jedi is also sloppily handled. Her main act aside from distracting enemy fighters and lifting rocks is to be a pawn in Kylo's coup. Aside from that she gets not much more than further heartache from her time with Luke, and he gets nothing but further heartache from her, as he's pushed so much further down into his personal darkness that he decides just moping around the jedi temple isn't enough, he also has to burn it all down! That's when Master Yoda - the actual agent responsible for bringing Luke to the table for his big showdown - turns up and turns him around, helping Luke get his mojo back so he's ready to take his place as the central figure in the film's dramatic climax (while supposed new hero Rey is barely even a spectator this time).

Doesn’t it make sense though that the experienced leadership who lived through the Empire and Rebellion are the one shown to be capable of bailing our new idealistic wannabe heroes out of trouble when needs be? 

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9 hours ago, mormont said:

Not seeing a substantial difference here with Yoda going to Dagobah.

Yoda is very old, and spends the last 2-3% of his life on Dagobah after facing Sidious directly and losing - equivalent to a 78 year old human retiring and dying at 80; and he does train Luke in the last half a percent of his life. Kenobi retires to Tatooine to keep an eye on Luke while still in his prime, but Sidious has basically already won at this point, and there's nothing he can do on his own. But when the rebels ask him for help, he sets off to join them without hesitation. Luke, on the other hand, runs away to hide and actually cuts himself off from the Force while Snoke and the First Order are still a growing threat, abandoning his friends and family, and as far as we know never takes any action against Snoke; then he refuses to help when the rebels come asking, and only takes any action when Yoda gives him a pep talk after Rey has already left without him. It's different.

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Analysis of the Battle of Jakku and events between Episodes VI and VII. I love the pew pew graphics.

 

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3 hours ago, felice said:

Yoda is very old, and spends the last 2-3% of his life on Dagobah after facing Sidious directly and losing - equivalent to a 78 year old human retiring and dying at 80; and he does train Luke in the last half a percent of his life. Kenobi retires to Tatooine to keep an eye on Luke while still in his prime, but Sidious has basically already won at this point, and there's nothing he can do on his own. But when the rebels ask him for help, he sets off to join them without hesitation. Luke, on the other hand, runs away to hide and actually cuts himself off from the Force while Snoke and the First Order are still a growing threat, abandoning his friends and family, and as far as we know never takes any action against Snoke; then he refuses to help when the rebels come asking, and only takes any action when Yoda gives him a pep talk after Rey has already left without him. It's different.

I don't really buy why havibg taken out Vader, Yoda didn't rematch Sidious with Obi-Wan by his side. Barring of course continuity with the OT.  

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I had a bizarre thought- okay, it's not that bizarre. :D it's more pointless head canon theory. And I'm sure someone's brought it up on some other fan site.  (Also I stopped reading the Star Wars Expanded Universe sometime around the turn of the century). Basically, Rey and Kylo/Ben are alternate dimension versions of Jaina and Jacen Solo. Except in the new movie 'verse, Jaina/Rey was born to different parents. But she still relates to Kylo like a sister. And EU verse Ben Skywalker is... uh, the kid in the stables at the end. :P 

This had been your random Star Wars thought of the day. Also, where can I find a stuffed Porg that doesn't make noise?

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I dunno, she seems to have, uh, more than a sisterly interest in him at this point.

Also, amazon.

Also, someone on another site was arguing that Lucas would never have aproved of all this Star Wars merchandise, and I actually face-palmed in real life. Note: faceplaming kinda stings.

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2 hours ago, Darth Richard II said:

I dunno, she seems to have, uh, more than a sisterly interest in him at this point.

Remember, we're on an ASoIaF/GoT forum, so their interactions may indeed be on the milder side of the, uh, sibling-like dynamics.

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35 minutes ago, Annara Snow said:

Remember, we're on an ASoIaF/GoT forum, so their interactions may indeed be on the milder side of the, uh, sibling-like dynamics.

Incest is in! Wooo!

 

Wait...

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3 hours ago, Derfel Cadarn said:

I don't really buy why havibg taken out Vader, Yoda didn't rematch Sidious with Obi-Wan by his side.

The tricky part is getting to him again with the entire Republic fleet and an army of clone troopers in the way. And Sidious would probably be able to sense them coming.

3 hours ago, Darth Richard II said:

I dunno, she seems to have, uh, more than a sisterly interest in him at this point.

That runs in the family :P There's a deleted scene I hadn't seen before:

 

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Haha yeah there was a lot of uh. Luke and Leia promo material from Empire that is uh, inappropriate.

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6 hours ago, Derfel Cadarn said:

I don't really buy why havibg taken out Vader, Yoda didn't rematch Sidious with Obi-Wan by his side. Barring of course continuity with the OT.  

I think Palpatine assumed Yoda was dead after Order 66, therefore didn't expect him to show up (hence his irritation in saying "Master Yoda.  You survived.").  I guarantee that if Yoda and Obi-Wan went after Palpatine again, there would be more people surrounding Palpatine than just Mas Amedda and two red guards.

I love Mas Amedda's initial reaction in this scene.

 

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13 hours ago, felice said:

Yoda is very old, and spends the last 2-3% of his life on Dagobah after facing Sidious directly and losing - equivalent to a 78 year old human retiring and dying at 80; and he does train Luke in the last half a percent of his life. Kenobi retires to Tatooine to keep an eye on Luke while still in his prime, but Sidious has basically already won at this point, and there's nothing he can do on his own. But when the rebels ask him for help, he sets off to join them without hesitation. Luke, on the other hand, runs away to hide and actually cuts himself off from the Force while Snoke and the First Order are still a growing threat, abandoning his friends and family, and as far as we know never takes any action against Snoke; then he refuses to help when the rebels come asking, and only takes any action when Yoda gives him a pep talk after Rey has already left without him. It's different.

I'm honestly unsure how any of this is a response to my point. I wasn't discussing Obi-Wan, nor what Luke or Yoda do after they are found: the comparison is about what they do in response to failure, removing themselves from the galaxy, going into exile on a distant planet to await the end. It's true that Yoda was in exile for slightly less time, but this was not due to his actions or choices, just how events panned out. 

Luke knows nothing of the First Order, so far as we know. At the time he leaves, I believe they're not even in the open. Certainly Snoke isn't. Since then, Luke has had no way to learn about them.

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On 1/8/2018 at 5:41 PM, Happy Ent said:

And, famously, in 2001. Just remember to close you eyes (because the water will boil, damaging your retina.) I may be misremembering, but isn’t that actually a plot point? Whathisname needs to keep his eyes closed, so he fumbles with some kind of bulkhead?

Dave Bowman had to close his eyes when he got back into Discovery through the emergency airlock after HAL locked him out.  He also should have exhaled first so his lungs wouldn't explode, per IMDB's goofs, blah blah blah.

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I always thought the idea pre prequels was that Yoda just lived on Dagobah and that's were Jedi went to train.

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On 1/9/2018 at 0:15 AM, HelenaExMachina said:

Doesn’t it make sense though that the experienced leadership who lived through the Empire and Rebellion are the one shown to be capable of bailing our new idealistic wannabe heroes out of trouble when needs be? 

Sure it does, it's just that some of us would prefer if the old white guys took a break from saving the galaxy for a while and let the young girl and her black bff do some galaxy-saving for a change.

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14 minutes ago, Davrum said:

Sure it does, it's just that some of us would prefer if the old white guys took a break from saving the galaxy for a while and let the young girl and her black bff do some galaxy-saving for a change.

I guess where we differ here is our opinions of the heroics they do get to show. I seem to rate them more highly than you do even if they are smaller scale. I’m happy for more experienced leadership to get the galaxy saving/fleet saving stuff because I don’t feel like Finn, Rey and Rose are getting shortchanged. Ymmv though 

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19 hours ago, felice said:

The tricky part is getting to him again with the entire Republic fleet and an army of clone troopers in the way. And Sidious would probably be able to sense them coming.

That runs in the family :P There's a deleted scene I hadn't seen before:

 

Hah, I'd never seen that either. It's especially funny because doesn't she say something like "On some level I've always known [he's my brother]" in Jedi?

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