Bronn Stone

The Last Jedi (Spoilers): Force-Choke or Tour-de-Force?

413 posts in this topic

watched it again over christmas with my dad and a lot of first sceening issues faded the second time around. It felt a lot clearer where they were going with the character arcs and it looks damn beautiful throughout.

I'm liking the theory going around that Snoke may have mirrored Luke in the sense he may well have never been present in that throne room. Given the dice and the fact we've seen how he can force project over distances it's not impossible. That said, on second viewing I appreciate why killing him is essential for Kylo Ren's development. Plus, all the good sith lords have to kill their masters. Although I'll be disappointed if the whole point of this trilogy idoesn't establish Ren and Rey as something separate from the Jedi/Sith set up.

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5 minutes ago, Corvinus said:

Yes, it may be a good explanation for how it works, but I still got nothing on why no one used it before. At the battle of Endor, when it became clear that "that thing is operational!!!" one of the Mon Calamari cruisers could have made the ultimate sacrifice. Then again, maybe the shield protecting the DS was strong enough to have negated any kind of impact even of that magnitude. 

Yeah, I would assume that the Endor shield was indeed strong enough.  It does open the question of why a cruiser didn't do that once it was obvious the shield was down.  Perhaps the mon cal ships/shields weren't strong enough to ensure that it would work, and they didn't have much appetite to a kamikaze attack of a ship with thousands of crew unless it has a strong chance of working. 

I'm trying to think if there were any other situations where it obviously would have made sense to do this.  Nothing really in the OT.  In the prequels...the only capital vs capital space battle i remember is Episode III, and that was such a mess it's hard to say what tactics should have been used.

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32 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

Yeah, I would assume that the Endor shield was indeed strong enough.  It does open the question of why a cruiser didn't do that once it was obvious the shield was down.  Perhaps the mon cal ships/shields weren't strong enough to ensure that it would work, and they didn't have much appetite to a kamikaze attack of a ship with thousands of crew unless it has a strong chance of working. 

I'm trying to think if there were any other situations where it obviously would have made sense to do this.  Nothing really in the OT.  In the prequels...the only capital vs capital space battle i remember is Episode III, and that was such a mess it's hard to say what tactics should have been used.

Once the shield was down, it would have been ridiculous to sacrifice a battle cruiser when you had the option to send fighters, as they did, inside and blow the reactor.

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4 minutes ago, Corvinus said:

Once the shield was down, it would have been ridiculous to sacrifice a battle cruiser when you had the option to send fighters, as they did, inside and blow the reactor.

well, that depends on how likely the fighters are to succeed, and how many casualties the battlecruisers are going to take in the meantime against the imperial fleet and the death star's superlaser. 

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2 hours ago, Rubicante said:

Upon further reflection, I was just thinking of how many problems would have been solved in the movie if the First Order shows up and completely annihilates the Resistance fleet.  That way we would get no flying Leia, no Poe and Rose to the Casino planet, and no mutiny plot.

Hmm... you'd still end the movie with the Falcon as the sole remaining Resistance ship, but with Luke alive instead of Leia and a handful of random rebels. Making the final movie Revenge of the Jedi? The big question is Rey and Ren - if Ren doesn't allow the First Order to continue massacring the Resistance because they're all dead already, then Rey has no urgent motive to fight him. Perhaps they argue politics to the point of coming to blows anyway and end up in the same place; or perhaps they stay together and Rey's influence allows the First Order to actually become a force for good, making Luke the villain next time?

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2 hours ago, Eggegg said:

I'm pretty certain I'd think the movie was fine had I no attachment to the originals.

OK. Now, you understand that my brother is in his 40s, that we used to play Star Wars all the time in the garden and with our first generation figurines and vehicles, and has watched the original trilogy countless times in his lifetime? Because I'm struggling to imagine why you would think he had 'no attachment to the originals' from my post. Heck, I got him R2 and BB8 socks for Christmas!

For that matter I'm not sure what your point is in general, because you have seen many people in this thread who clearly have a great attachment to the originals and enjoy TLJ.

ps my son has indeed seen the prequels but he is equally familiar with the OT, I can assure you, being as I'm the person who showed them to him.

52 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

I really dislike Adam Driver as the villain, I don't see sufficient gravitas there, at all.

I was thinking about that and I feel like it's important to understand that Ren doesn't really start out as Vader, or a Vader-analogue. He starts out as Anakin, or a version of Anakin that thinks he's Vader. In other words, he is not a 'gravitas' type of villain: he's evolving into one, and that process may now be complete.

I do feel, with Driver, it's a case of he's probably doing a perfectly fine job, I just haven't taken to his performance for whatever reason. That happens.

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1 hour ago, Cas Stark said:

I really dislike Adam Driver as the villain, I don't see sufficient gravitas there, at all.

Kylo Ren is not supposed to have any gravitas. What makes you think otherwise? They even explicitly point it out that he was a "child" trying to be Vader and looking silly. 

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1 hour ago, Astromech said:

I completely agree with the bolded. Just sitting back and accepting the film for what it is and not having to compromise that with my expectations works wonders of my enjoyment of the film. On a second viewing it amazed me how short the Canto Bight scenes actually are. While they are still the weakest parts of the film, imo, they bothered me much less the second time around and I actually enjoyed parts of them.

However, I have to disagree with you concerning Adam Driver. He has been the best part of the new trilogy for me so far. His portrayal of Kylo Ren has impressed me. Not taking anything away from Carrie, Mark and Daisy.

Agree with all of this. 

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Posted (edited)

17 hours ago, Kalbear said:

The idea that the OT's humor is heavily scripted is also hilariously wrong. Most of the humor and beats were things that weren't remotely in the main script - things like 'who's scruffy looking' as an example. TESB is the one most unscripted and allowed the most input from the actors, including the famous 'I know' line, which only the director and Ford knew was going to be said. "Boring conversation anyway" is another improvised one, and they simply didn't have the film to redo things so the actors could get away with it. 

I can see an argument for the humor not being precisely the same, but it's certainly in the same vein, and certainly similar to KOTOR and Indiana Jones and the like - the conversational, almost 4th wall breaking vein mixed with a good dollop of physical humor and sight gags. The best one so far is the one from TFA, where the stormtroopers see Ren's tantrum and nope the fuck out. 

The gags which seem to trip fans up the most are "Who talks first?" from TFA and "Holding for Hugs" from TLJ. Note that these are at the expense of a villain - serving to deflate the dramatic tension of the scene, and that this is the most common tack for the types of gags we've seen over the decades since the OT in goofy parodies like Spaceballs, Robot Chicken, Family Guy, Eddie Izzard routines, Chad Vader, MTV Awards show sketches etc. Hux in particular suffers from being undermined repeatedly in TLJ. 

These are very much in a different vein than the humour in the OT, in which the gags were always at the expense of the heroes, serving to enhance the dramatic tension rather than to deflate it. For example, much of the humour in the OT revolves around everyone's favourite grouchy scoundrel Han Solo being constantly in over his head*. In ANH, Han's famous "We're all fine here, how are you?" scene is all about Han scrambling to regain control of a desperate situation. In ESB, Leia's "Would it help if I got out and pushed?" is similarly a shot at Han once again scrambling to regain control of a desperate situation. Even in ROTJ when it all seemingly goes pear-shaped and the gang are sentenced to death by Sarlacc, it's Han making us laugh, except instead of undermining the threat posed by the villains Han is underlining the jeopardy. Han's desperate demeanour throughout the OT never lets the audience off the hook. His desperation becomes our desperation. Poe's cool-as-ice demeanour, however, very much does let the audience off the hook, and very much with that goofy parody vibe mentioned above.

I'm with you on a lot of the other new ST humour though. In TLJ, Luke and Rey's dynamic is very much in that OT, taking-the-piss-out-of-the-heroes vein. That TFA gag where the troopers turn tail when they happen upon Kylo Ren going apeshit only serves to enhance the notion that their boss is legitimately terrifying. While BB-8's adorable puppydog persona is very different from Artoo's wise-cracking insult-droid or Threepio's stuck-up drama queen, the physical comedy has a similar vibe. For the most part the ST humour is plenty similar to the OT humour. But because Poe's Spaceballs-style gags are right up front of each of the new movies I think they set the tone for a lot of fans, and they just don't enjoy that tone too much.

 

* See also everyone's favourite archaeologist constantly in over his head in Indiana Jones.

Edited by Davrum

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42 minutes ago, Annara Snow said:

Kylo Ren is not supposed to have any gravitas. What makes you think otherwise? They even explicitly point it out that he was a "child" trying to be Vader and looking silly. 

Then who is the villain?  And if he's just a silly child, why does he have so much screen time?

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I think I've decided that Poe is the new Jar Jar for me.  Every time he is on screen, and especially when he talks and tries to be funny, is cringe worthy.  I hope the opening crawl for Star Wars Episode 9 starts with "Poe Dameron is dead.  The Resistance executed him for leading a mutiny."

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4 minutes ago, Rubicante said:

I think I've decided that Poe is the new Jar Jar for me.  Every time he is on screen, and especially when he talks and tries to be funny, is cringe worthy.  I hope the opening crawl for Star Wars Episode 9 starts with "Poe Dameron is dead.  The Resistance executed him for leading a mutiny."

..From a certain point of view... Until he reveals himself as Darth Poe alongside Darth Jar Jar (FYI - Snoke was a force-projection by DJJ).

https://www.reddit.com/r/StarWars/comments/3qvj6w/theory_jar_jar_binks_was_a_trained_force_user/

 

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Posted (edited)

17 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Then who is the villain?  And if he's just a silly child, why does he have so much screen time?

He is the villain. What makes you think that the villain can't be a silly, entitled, overpowered manchild, or that he has to have gravitas?

Edited by Annara Snow

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Posted (edited)

3 hours ago, Eggegg said:

I’m not saying I have a better claim, only that I’m likely more attached to a certain vision of Star Wars , that I feel only highlights the new movies flaws. I’m talking about myself

Cool, fair enough, thanks for the clarification. 

ETA:  I think this is the biggest problem Star Wars has going forward.  It has become a big thing to sooo many people that I think it will do things that won't jive with parts of the fandom, where it will with others.  I hope with expanding the universe they can kind of give everyone their corners to enjoy.

Edited by Guy Kilmore

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4 hours ago, Eggegg said:

I'm pretty certain I'd think the movie was fine had I no attachment to the originals. Someone who was 20 would probably be more aware of the prequels than the OT and so wouldn't be associating Star Wars with classic quality film making anyway. The brand has become so diluted and meaningless over the years that I'm sure younger people don't know what to think of it.

TFA and TLJ are absolutely standard 'fine' movies in the scope of movies that have come out this decade. Nothing really wrong with them in isolation, they look good next to Jurassic World or Hunger Games.

My issues are really to do with how they stack up in comparison to the OT, which I feel is relevant because its quite often attempting to give some sort of continuity to those movies. (The prequels at least do us the service of feeling completely different to the OT, and make little attempt to join the two together stylistically)

And these new movies come out worse on so many levels, that the clashes in style of quality just highlight the problems in the movie. 

 

I disagree with this as hard as I can. Entire sequences are made, particularly in Sith, to match up shot for shot to scenes from the OT. Lucas even hired someone to make the hairstyle in 3 match up with the 70s.

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Just now, Darth Richard II said:

I disagree with this as hard as I can. Entire sequences are made, particularly in Sith, to match up shot for shot to scenes from the OT. Lucas even hired someone to make the hairstyle in 3 match up with the 70s.

That Lucas tried so hard yet failed so uttetly miserably goes to show what a clueless hack he became 

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14 minutes ago, Annara Snow said:

He is the villain. What makes you think that the villain can't be a silly, entitled, overpowered manchild, or that he has to have gravitas?

I guess because a silly, overpowered man child doesn't seem like much of a villain to me, that's why.  He's not much of a replacement for Vader or Palpatine, IMO, and I can't see him..Driver...ever having the level of gravitas necessary to be taken seriously as a villain.  

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Just now, Cas Stark said:

I guess because a silly, overpowered man child doesn't seem like much of a villain to me, that's why.  He's not much of a replacement for Vader or Palpatine, IMO, and I can't see him..Driver...ever having the level of gravitas necessary to be taken seriously as a villain.  

Driver is literally the only good thing in the series so far, yet I agree that his character isn’t really much in the way of intimidating villain. Maybe he doesn’t need to be yet,  but Snoke was an empty fart and now he’s dead there is even more need for a villain.

Ren could become a great bad guy, but he would need to much more twisted and messed up, but I suspect he will instead find some sort of redemption by the end, despite never really achieving major league evil status.

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2 hours ago, aceluby said:

I generally like the humor in the new ones, but it's nothing like the OT, and sometimes feels forced and can distract from the overall feel of the film.  This happened A LOT in the prequels, and my only complaint about Rogue One was that damn "Don't choke on your aspirations" line from Vader.  That's a glaring example of forcing comedy into a scene where it had no business.  TLJ and TFA do this in a few spots, though not as egregious.  Where Rogue One succeeds the most is the humor coming from the droid.  It's more on par with the humor in the OT that came from 3PO and Han, which is more dry and less slapstick.  Personally, I cringed during that stormtrooper scene.

*personal pet peeve engaged*

Vader doesn't actually emphasize the word choke when he says that sentence! I don't know why I always see it written that way. And Vader has always been a sarcastic butthole, at least in 4 and 5. Although if you don't like the scene, I forgive you. :P

*disengage*

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7 minutes ago, Eggegg said:

That Lucas tried so hard yet failed so uttetly miserably goes to show what a clueless hack he became 

Eh, just about every review of Sith, negative or positive, pointed dout how stylistically similar it was to Ep 4.

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