Bronn Stone

The Last Jedi (Spoilers): Force-Choke or Tour-de-Force?

267 posts in this topic

What exactly is the argument for giving Lucas any creative input at all?

It's not as if he's pumping out the hits over there at the ranch.

'Bring Lucas on as a creative consultant' just sounds like a more polite way of saying 'these new Star Wars films should be more like the ones I liked when I was a kid, dagnabbit'.

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26 minutes ago, Happy Ent said:

I hadn’t seen the Bechdel discussion upthread.

Hoom. Young Ents are so hasty these days... :P

22 minutes ago, Happy Ent said:

I’ve never been able to square the “do or do not” idea with the rest of Jedidom. (Trying and failing ought to be an important part of their ethics. And, indeed, it is Luke’s reluctance to even try that make Yoda say that.)

I don't think it's a general philosophical position, he's just saying that doubting your ability to do something makes it harder to succeed. That doesn't mean failure isn't an expected part of the learning process.

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Lucas did have creative input. The sequel films you've enjoyed have elements that come directly from what he proposed. So I wouldn't be too fast on dumping on him.That said, yes, there's also places where they clearly veered away from his plans, per what Hamill and others have indicated.

Hamill's suggestion that he rather preferred Lucas's take on Luke for the sequels makes me think I'd have liked to see that instead of what we got.

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12 hours ago, Happy Ent said:

At the danger of beating a dead horse: We cannot have a movie in which a female heroine learns something, and much less from a man. Such scenes need to be minimised, and preferably completely excised.

Anything else would be a moral mistake.

The Last Jedi has transcended the requirements of traditional (“modern”, if you want) storytelling. I wants to be, and should be, evaluated on the grounds of making important cultural progress and speaking with moral clarity.

We should no more evaluate Last Jedi on the traditional grounds of storytelling (plot, character motivation, world-building, sensible spaceship battle tactics, suspension of disbelief with respect to physics and technology) than we should evaluate Doctor Who as an analysis of the mechanics of time travel. Or Das Kapital as a cooking recipe. It’s a different genre. Last Jedi inserts itself into the conversation about Star Wars by fixing all the moral and cultural problems with the original trilogy. That’s a huge deal, and it solves this problem perfectly.

This works both ways: the cultural critique of the original trilogy was never based on plot holes or bad character development or inconsistent physics. Instead, that critique examines issues related to power structures embodied in the choice of narrative tropes, cultural appropriation, essentialist characteristics, conservative values, etc.

The critique of OT does not care about storytelling.

Hence, the critique of Last Jedi shouldn’t, either. The films are masterpieces exactly because they deliberately eschew “pre-postmodern” ideas of storytelling.

Pre-postmodern ideas of storytelling are for white males.

You know, most people don't judge movies the way you do. Not now, nor 10 years ago, nor 20 years ago...

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Posted (edited)

5 hours ago, Rubicante said:

I'm interested in what people think the following quotes tell us about Yoda.

Analysis #1:

"Only a Sith deals in absolutes." - Obi-Wan Kenobi, from Star Wars Episode III: Revenge of the Sith

"Do or do not, there is no try." - Yoda, from Star Wars Episode V: The Empire Strikes Back

Analysis #2:

"The greatest teacher, failure is." - Awful looking puppet that is supposed to be Yoda, from Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi

"Failed I have.  Into exile I must go." - Yoda, from Star Wars Episode III: Revenge of the Sith

When 900 years old you will reach, your mind be still sane, it will not. hmm... :P

Old Yoda was losing it, force ghost Yoda has a clearer mind.

Edited by Corvinus

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Just the fact that people are suddenly saying Lucas should have any input on new Star Wars makes me feel like I woke up in a different universe.

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46 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

Just the fact that people are suddenly saying Lucas should have any input on new Star Wars makes me feel like I woke up in a different universe.

The fact that Lucas deliberately painted the Jedi Council as deeply flawed in the prequels went a long way towards me accepting that whatever he had lost as a director and writer, he was still someone with some genuine and unique insight into the universe he had birthed. It's a fundamental aspect of the events of the prequels, that the Jedi are staid and inward looking and basically screw everything up, and that was pretty revelatory in and of itself.

So yeah, there's nothing weird about the idea that Lucas's input could be useful. Was useful, even, as we know elements of this sequel trilogy are from his outline (even if, in many cases, radically altered). So if you enjoy these two films, you have to accept that these films are partially informed by Lucas's input.

(Just don't let him write or direct anything.)

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Oh I didn't mean to direct that at any one here specifically. Just, the way the fandom can completely reverse itself in seconds has always been kind of mind boggling to me.

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1 hour ago, Darth Richard II said:

Just the fact that people are suddenly saying Lucas should have any input on new Star Wars makes me feel like I woke up in a different universe.

I, and I guess many others, would love to learn what Lucas would have done different story wise from the new SW film group.

It's a subject very much shrouded in secrecy. Last year a book was supposed to come out called the Making of Star Wars Force Awakens. It was highly anticipated by fans because from the previews of the contents and synopsis it was clear that this would really go into the process of writing and producing TFA, and there would be lots of nuggets of info. However the book was recalled before publication and has not been published since, much to the author's dismay. It's interesting that they did that and suggests that it revealed more than they wanted about the Making of the Film.

So, we don't know what Lucas' ideas really are. I've recently seen Mark Hamill saying that this Luke is not what he thought George Lucas imagined it or what Lucas intended for Luke, aside from the fact that Hamill himself doesn't like it. That is the only info I know from a reliable source on how the films differ from his vision. More info on that would be great.

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44 minutes ago, Calibandar said:

It's a subject very much shrouded in secrecy. Last year a book was supposed to come out called the Making of Star Wars Force Awakens. It was highly anticipated by fans because from the previews of the contents and synopsis it was clear that this would really go into the process of writing and producing TFA, and there would be lots of nuggets of info. However the book was recalled before publication and has not been published since, much to the author's dismay.

Hopefully it will be published after Episode 9. It seems plausible that it contains information that might end up being spoilery for the final movie in the trilogy.

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I'll just assume no one actually reads any of the links I post in here where they talk about some of Lucas plans then?

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1 hour ago, Ran said:

(Just don't let him write or direct anything.)

You know, I'm going to blow what little credibility I have left here and say for the most part, I like the actiony parts of the prequels and think they were mostly well done. 

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28 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

You know, I'm going to blow what little credibility I have left here and say for the most part, I like the actiony parts of the prequels and think they were mostly well done. 

The lightsaber fight at the end of Phantom Menace was incredible.  

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13 minutes ago, Triskele said:

The lightsaber fight at the end of Phantom Menace was incredible.  

I thought that when I first saw it, but now I am less impressed by it. The music gives it strength, and some moments are really good but there are a lot of flaws. 

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8 minutes ago, Corvinus said:

I thought that when I first saw it, but now I am less impressed by it. The music gives it strength, and some moments are really good but there are a lot of flaws. 

I watched TPM recently and it's still pretty good, but it's not, eh, the best. The one I really like that everyone else hates is Jango chasing Obi in II with the depth charges.  I always thought that was "kewl".

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Posted (edited)

Btw, someone had asked in the previous thread about the scene in Snoke's throne room about the fire in the background.

Just watched a bootleg clip on youtube of that, and when Rey kills the guard with the whip, she breaks his whip getting her saber free, and throws the tip of the whip in the curtains which immediately catch fire. (so independent from the explosion)

Edited by Corvinus

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25 minutes ago, Corvinus said:

Btw, someone had asked in the previous thread about the scene in Snoke's throne room about the fire in the background.

Just watched a bootleg clip on youtube of that, and when Rey kills the guard with the whip, she breaks his whip getting her saber free, and throws the tip of the whip in the curtains which immediately catch fire. (so independent from the explosion)

Yeah that was me who asked. I saw the film for a third time on Thursday and spotted that too.

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Idc I still love that fight to pieces. Duel of the Fates definitely elevates it, but I’ll also never get tired of that double sided lightsaber. Still one of the coolest things in any SW film ever, IMO. 

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5 minutes ago, Nictarion said:

Idc I still love that fight to pieces. Duel of the Fates definitely elevates it, but I’ll also never get tired of that double sided lightsaber. Still one of the coolest things in any SW film ever, IMO. 

It was a cool looking fight with a great song, and it's in general well choreographed, but basically that fight makes the movie a kung fu movie - the plot is trash, and you skip everything to get to the good stuff.

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