Do u think Theon will have Stockholm Syndrome after he or if he leaves Ramsay?

[manchester_babe]

I've been thinking maybe Theon will have something like Stockholm Syndrome if or he leaves Ramsay?

[Aline de Gavrillac]

Theon's mental state is a mess but he still had enough guile to deceive Jon's agents when he didn't tell them about fake Arya.  I guess he knew they wouldn't bother to get them out if they knew she was a fake. 

[Varysblackfyre321]

2 hours ago, manchester_babe said:

I've been thinking maybe Theon will have something like Stockholm Syndrome if or he leaves Ramsay?

Ok before anyone tries to address this if you haven't actually researched Stolkhome syndrome I urge you to watch this fun and I feel informative video 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=syYCO0QVkZo

 

[aryagonnakill#2]

I think Theons arc is represented by the Ironborn mantra - "What is dead may never die, but rises again, harder and stronger."  I believe Theon will rule the Iron Isles either alongside Asha, or with her son as his heir.  I know that seems far fetched, but his chapters are labeled Theon again, and that is a start.

[Lost Melnibonean]

Theon has escaped Ramsay (Theon I, Dance 51.) 

[Foot_Of_The_King]

3 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Theon has escaped Ramsay (Theon I, Dance 51.) 

I was wondering who would say it. 

Also, I always thought that Stockholm Syndrome is suffered while being captive (on any sort of dominate relationship), not after being "free." To my understanding, it's when you receive any sort of "nice" treatment from your capture and you think "they aren't so bad." 

[The Fattest Leech]

A Dance with Dragons - The Wayward Bride

"Even if you did find your uncle Damphair, the two of you would fail. You were both part of the kingsmoot, so you cannot say it was unlawful called, as Torgon did. You are bound to its decision by all the laws of gods and men. You—"

Asha frowned. "Wait. Torgon? Which Torgon?"

"Torgon the Latecomer."

"He was a king during the Age of Heroes." She recalled that much about him, but little else. "What of him?"

"Torgon Greyiron was the king's eldest son. But the king was old and Torgon restless, so it happened that when his father died he was raiding along the Mander from his stronghold on Greyshield. His brothers sent no word to him but instead quickly called a kingsmoot, thinking that one of them would be chosen to wear the driftwood crown. But the captains and the kings chose Urragon Goodbrother to rule instead. The first thing the new king did was command that all the sons of the old king be put to death, and so they were. After that men called him Badbrother, though in truth they'd been no kin of his. He ruled for almost two years."

Asha remembered now. "Torgon came home …"

"… and said the kingsmoot was unlawful since he had not been there to make his claim. Badbrother had proved to be as mean as he was cruel and had few friends left upon the isles. The priests denounced him, the lords rose against him, and his own captains hacked him into pieces. Torgon the Latecomer became the king and ruled for forty years."

Asha took Tris Botley by the ears and kissed him full upon the lips. He was red and breathless by the time she let him go. "What was that?" he said.

[Varysblackfyre321]

1 hour ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

I think Theons arc is represented by the Ironborn mantra - "What is dead may never die, but rises again, harder and stronger."  I believe Theon will rule the Iron Isles either alongside Asha, or with her son as his heir.  I know that seems far fetched, but his chapters are labeled Theon again, and that is a start.

I don't really think it'll happen but I kinda picture Jon going berserk when he sees Theon(probably suffering the lingering effects of having his mind being sent to ghost), and just straight up killing Theon for believing Theon murdered  Rickon and Brandon.  

[aryagonnakill#2]

25 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

I don't really think it'll happen but I kinda picture Jon going berserk when he sees Theon(probably suffering the lingering effects of having his mind being sent to ghost), and just straight up killing Theon for believing Theon murdered  Rickon and Brandon.  

Not to hijack the thread, but if Theon is dead he obv can't get stockhome syndrome so I suppose this is still fair game.  Personally I think that Jons dream where Bran was a weirwood sapling that grew into a full size tree was a prophetic Targ dream and we only saw part of an interaction we will see next book when Jon is in Ghost.  Given this belief I think he will know Bran is alive if/when he meets Theon again.

[Lucius Lovejoy]

I think GRRM may be the kind of writer to give us all sorts of hints that Theon may survive until late in the series and come to rule the Iron Islands, only to actually have Stannis execute him.  I actually hope he does.  I don't like the idea of any character having plot armor, and bringing up Torgon latecomer in a sense gives Theon plot armor.  It would be more consistent with the natural order of the world that if, despite Asha's hope and plans, and Bran's possible interference, Theon was beheaded or burned anyways just like Stannis insists he will do.

[Prince Yourwetdream Aeryn]

Even if it happens it will be called Drogo syndrome, not Stockholm.

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

He clearly had Stockholm Syndrome when he was held by Ramsay. What the after effects are after escape, and how they manifest themselves, I don’t know.

One thought – could it manifest itself as lingering loyalty to your captor after release? Meaning that Theon could become Reek again, and betray Asha for Ramsay?

[Darion Storm]

If he isn’t already exhibiting it before he escapes it would be very strange for it to manifest afterwards.

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

3 hours ago, Darion Storm said:

If he isn’t already exhibiting it before he escapes it would be very strange for it to manifest afterwards.

He is though isn't he? He's grateful for any tiny thing that Ransey does, like when he generously decides not to flay a remaining part of his anatomy. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

10 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

A Dance with Dragons - The Wayward Bride

"Even if you did find your uncle Damphair, the two of you would fail. You were both part of the kingsmoot, so you cannot say it was unlawful called, as Torgon did. You are bound to its decision by all the laws of gods and men. You—"

Asha frowned. "Wait. Torgon? Which Torgon?"

"Torgon the Latecomer."

"He was a king during the Age of Heroes." She recalled that much about him, but little else. "What of him?"

"Torgon Greyiron was the king's eldest son. But the king was old and Torgon restless, so it happened that when his father died he was raiding along the Mander from his stronghold on Greyshield. His brothers sent no word to him but instead quickly called a kingsmoot, thinking that one of them would be chosen to wear the driftwood crown. But the captains and the kings chose Urragon Goodbrother to rule instead. The first thing the new king did was command that all the sons of the old king be put to death, and so they were. After that men called him Badbrother, though in truth they'd been no kin of his. He ruled for almost two years."

Asha remembered now. "Torgon came home …"

"… and said the kingsmoot was unlawful since he had not been there to make his claim. Badbrother had proved to be as mean as he was cruel and had few friends left upon the isles. The priests denounced him, the lords rose against him, and his own captains hacked him into pieces. Torgon the Latecomer became the king and ruled for forty years."

Asha took Tris Botley by the ears and kissed him full upon the lips. He was red and breathless by the time she let him go. "What was that?" he said.

Yeap. There's a reason that's there. 

[Megorova]

Seems that Theon does have Stockholm Syndrome.

In Theon's chapter from Winds of Winter,

Spoiler

when he was talking with Stannis about what happened, he was referring to Ramsay as Lord Ramsay. When Stannis called him the Bastard, Theon nearly had a fit, and said to never call him that, not Ramsay Snow, and that he has to remember his name, or else Ramsay will hurt him. And he was grinning when he said that Ramsay has more men than Stannis. And that Ramsay will come to get back his bride, and his Reek, and that Stannis should be afraid of him. He also said to Asha not to call Ramsay a Bastard.

So even though he was already free from Ramsay, he was still afraid of him, and was referring to him with respect(fear), and demanding from others not to call Ramsay a Bastard, because it will make Ramsay angry and he will hurt them.

That's obviously insane.

[Lost Melnibonean]

9 hours ago, Megorova said:

Seems that Theon does have Stockholm Syndrome.In Theon's chapter from Winds of Winter,

Spoiler

 

when he was talking with Stannis about what happened, he was referring to Ramsay as Lord Ramsay. When Stannis called him the Bastard, Theon nearly had a fit, and said to never call him that, not Ramsay Snow, and that he has to remember his name, or else Ramsay will hurt him. And he was grinning when he said that Ramsay has more men than Stannis. And that Ramsay will come to get back his bride, and his Reek, and that Stannis should be afraid of him. He also said to Asha not to call Ramsay a Bastard.

So even though he was already free from Ramsay, he was still afraid of him, and was referring to him with respect(fear), and demanding from others not to call Ramsay a Bastard, because it will make Ramsay angry and he will hurt them.

 

That's obviously insane.

Spoilers dude. 

[Foot_Of_The_King]

18 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

He clearly had Stockholm Syndrome when he was held by Ramsay. What the after effects are after escape, and how they manifest themselves, I don’t know.

One thought – could it manifest itself as lingering loyalty to your captor after release? Meaning that Theon could become Reek again, and betray Asha for Ramsay?

This is what I was trying to say. The OP made it sound like Stockholm syndrome is something you can only have after you escape.

Another good example is Arya and the Hound.

 

[Curled Finger]

Last time I read a Theon chapter he was still a mental disaster, but doing remarkably well.  I think the thing with Theon is he may have this fractured mentality that may make him susceptible to er, take overs.   But there is a future for Theon.  We've got @The Fattest Leech's reminder of the kingsmoot of old and @aryagonnakill#2's reminder of what felt like 3 chapters of boat sex with the Captain's daughter.   My humble addition to these reminders is Theon is capable of using a long sword.  He will find his way back to the Islands, with certain king in the running's help after Winterfell.  He hasn't got Stockholm Syndrome.   He is frightened of Ramsay and that will keep him safe right up to the point he takes his long sword and runs the Bastard through with it.   With Bran in his head perhaps he will find himself again and come back as stated above, stronger and harder.  

[The Fattest Leech]

Bran's journey started out with, "the things I do for love," and then a push by a hand of a golden "god".

Later, after Theon has been through a ton of torture, sleeping with the dogs, loosing his manhood in whatever way possible, and losing his teeth (no more classic Theon smile!), his sister couldn't recognize him, he lost his name- he lost his entire self identity. This has been a long walk of shame that Theon has been put through. But what is dead may never die, but rises again...

A Dance with Dragons - A Ghost in Winterfell

The night was windless, the snow drifting straight down out of a cold black sky, yet the leaves of the heart tree were rustling his name. "Theon," they seemed to whisper, "Theon."

The old gods, he thought. They know me. They know my name. I was Theon of House Greyjoy. I was a ward of Eddard Stark, a friend and brother to his children. "Please." He fell to his knees. "A sword, that's all I ask. Let me die as Theon, not as Reek." Tears trickled down his cheeks, impossibly warm. "I was ironborn. A son … a son of Pyke, of the islands."

A leaf drifted down from above, brushed his brow, and landed in the pool. It floated on the water, red, five-fingered, like a bloody hand. "… Bran," the tree murmured.

They know. The gods know. They saw what I did. And for one strange moment it seemed as if it were Bran's face carved into the pale trunk of the weirwood, staring down at him with eyes red and wise and sad. Bran's ghost, he thought, but that was madness. Why should Bran want to haunt him? He had been fond of the boy, had never done him any harm. It was not Bran we killed. It was not Rickon. They were only miller's sons, from the mill by the Acorn Water. "I had to have two heads, else they would have mocked me … laughed at me … they …"

 

So a tree "speaks" to Theon in some form, and brushes his brow, then lands in water. That last part is important for an Iron Born.

Then later in the Theon TWOW chapter we have this bit.

Spoiler

This could be the place where the circle of Theon's redemption starts to rotate around back on top. I don't think Theon is going to die here, he won't be fed to the trees, but some other experience is going to happen that will "save" Theon's life so he can rise again.

 

The Winds of Winter - Theon I

"It is," his sister had said, so softly that he was afraid that she might cry. Theon hated that. He hated women weeping. Jeyne Poole had wept all the way from Winterfell to here, wept until her face was purple as a beetroot and the tears had frozen on her cheeks, and all because he told her that she must be Arya, or else the wolves might send them back. "They trained you in a brothel," he reminded her, whispering in her ear so the others would not hear. "Jeyne is the next thing to a whore, you must go on being Arya." He meant no hurt to her. It was for her own good, and his. She has to remember her name. When the tip of her nose turned black from frostbite, and the one of the riders from the Night's Watch told her she might lose a piece of it, Jeyne had wept over that as well. "No one will care what Arya looks like, so long as she is heir to Winterfell," he assured her. "A hundred men will want to marry her. A thousand."

The memory left Theon writhing in his chains. "Let me down," he pleaded. "Just for a little while, then you can hang me up again." Stannis Baratheon looked up at him, but did not answer. "Tree," a raven cried. "Tree, tree, tree."

Then other bird said, "Theon," clear as day, as Asha came striding through the door.

 

<and then>

 

"Wise. I am sorry for your mother, but I do not spare the lives of turncloaks. This one, especially. He slew two sons of Eddard Stark. Every northman in my service would abandon me if I showed him any clemency. Your brother must die."

"Then do the deed yourself, Your Grace." The chill in Asha's voice made Theon shiver in his chains. "Take him out across the lake to the islet where the weirwood grows, and strike his head off with that sorcerous sword you bear. That is how Eddard Stark would have done it. Theon slew Lord Eddard's sons. Give him to Lord Eddard's gods. The old gods of the north. Give him to the tree."

And suddenly there came a wild thumping, as the maester's ravens hopped and flapped inside their cages, their black feathers flying as they beat against the bars with loud and raucous caws. "The tree," one squawked, "the tree, the tree," whilst the second screamed only, "Theon, Theon, Theon."

Theon Greyjoy smiled. They know my name, he thought. [end scene]

 

His identity is coming back to him at this point when others know him. So, kind of like how Jon will most likely warg into Ghost to save his soul, Theon is also temporarily a "Ghost in Winterfell", which is way for him to protect his soul.

So we may see Bran, now an old god, show some forgiveness as a "thing he does for love", and Theon is pushed forward in life by the hand/leaf of a god.