Megorova Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 11 hours ago, Foot_Of_The_King said: This is what I was trying to say. The OP made it sound like Stockholm syndrome is something you can only have after you escape. Another good example is Arya and the Hound. Lancel Lannister and Cersei. Sansa and Lannisters. Sansa and Littlefinger. Brienne and Jaime. Or Jaime and Brienne? Dany and Viserys. Tyrion and Lannisters. Theon and Starks. Jon and Starks. I guess all of them are examples of Stockholm Syndrome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varysblackfyre321 Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 19 minutes ago, Megorova said: Lancel Lannister and Cersei. Sansa and Lannisters. Sansa and Littlefinger. Brienne and Jaime. Or Jaime and Brienne? Dany and Viserys. Tyrion and Lannisters. Theon and Starks. Jon and Starks. I guess all of them are examples of Stockholm Syndrome. Theon betrayed them at the drop of the hat, Jon was treated as Ned's son,Tyrion is a lanister. Lancelot-Cersi were cousins with benifits. There has to actually has be a captor-captive relationship for Stolkhome syndrome(if it's really a thing), to even be able to be brought up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foot_Of_The_King Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 2 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said: Theon betrayed them at the drop of the hat, Jon was treated as Ned's son,Tyrion is a lanister. Lancelot-Cersi were cousins with benifits. There has to actually has be a captor-captive relationship for Stolkhome syndrome(if it's really a thing), to even be able to be brought up It doesn't necessarily have to be a strictly "capture/captive" situation to qualify for Stockholm syndrome. It can be applied to any relationship in which one is controlled by another. One example is an abusive spouse or parent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foot_Of_The_King Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 2 hours ago, Megorova said: Lancel Lannister and Cersei. Sansa and Lannisters. Sansa and Littlefinger. Brienne and Jaime. Or Jaime and Brienne? Dany and Viserys. Tyrion and Lannisters. Theon and Starks. Jon and Starks. I guess all of them are examples of Stockholm Syndrome. I agree with most. I dont think the first or the last three that you mention qualify. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Megorova Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 2 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said: Theon betrayed them at the drop of the hat, Jon was treated as Ned's son,Tyrion is a lanister. Lancelot-Cersi were cousins with benifits. There has to actually has be a captor-captive relationship for Stolkhome syndrome(if it's really a thing), to even be able to be brought up No, it's not. This psychological "mindframe" existed/was researched long before that situation, with hostages during that bank robbery in Sweden. It got named "Stockholm Syndrome", just because this sort of psychological mindframe/mindset, became widelly discussed all over the world by massmedia, so this precise name of it, got known to general masses and from then on was referred to by this name. But actually it's not necessary a relationship between hostages and terrorists, or other sorts of criminals. It's a relationship between victim and abuser. It's a certain mindframe and behaviour of a victim towards his/her abuser. And the abuse could be physical, psychological, or even financial. Jon was treated as Ned's son. But simultaneously he was abused because of his bastard status. Abused by servants at Winterfell, by Catelyn, Sansa and even Robb and Theon. Ned himself also didn't treated Jon same as his other sons. So Jon was a captive/hostage in that family, and they mistreated him. But he wanted to be one of them, to be accepted, so he didn't left, even though he could have, long before he decided to go to The Wall. He could have went away, whenever and wherever he wanted, and nobody, not even Ned, would have stopped him, or tried to stop him from leaving. Similar situation was with Tyrion and other Lannisters. He wanted to be accepted by them, so he was staying with them, and trying to gain their trust, respect, and acknowledgement. Even though staying with them was psychologically harming him. Because both his father and Cersei hated and despised him. Nevertheless he didn't went away from them, didn't even tried to start a new life somewhere else. And he finally left only after it became obvious, that with them he isn't going anywhere/won't ever be accepted. Only then he left. That's also Stockholm Syndrome - Tyrion staying with his family, and being dependant on them, even though they psychologically (and in Cersei's case also physically) abused him. http://psychology.wikia.com/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome "Loyalty to a more powerful abuser — in spite of the danger that this loyalty puts the victim in — is common among victims of domestic abuse, battered partners and child abuse (dependent children). In many instances the victims choose to remain loyal to their abuser, and choose not to leave him or her, even when they are offered a safe placement in foster homes or safe houses. This unhealthy type of mental phenomenon is also known as Trauma-Bonding OR Bonding-to-the-Perpetrator. This syndrome was described by psychoanalysts of the object relations theory school (see Fairbairn) as the phenomenon of psychological identification with the more powerful abuser. A variant of Stockholm Syndrome includes cases of abusive parents and abusive siblings in which the victim, even after entering adulthood still justifies the family abuse." 5 minutes ago, Foot_Of_The_King said: I dont think the first or the last three that you mention qualify. They do qualify. Tyrion/Theon/Jon were abused/mistreated/humiliated/restricted in those families, but nevertheless they wanted to be accepted, to be acknowleged and treated equitably/same as other members of those families. They wanted to be like other Lannisters/Starks/Starks. And that's "psychological identification with the more powerful abuser". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shouldve Taken The Black Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 3 hours ago, Megorova said: Tyrion/Theon/Jon were abused/mistreated/humiliated/restricted in those families Surely there's a difference between what Jon experienced and abuse though? Shit, I had a nasty step mother, mean siblings and bullying peers. Who didn't? I wouldn't consider that abuse. Granted, there was an element of discrimination due to his birth status, but I still think the term "abuse" is being used a bit freely. 3 hours ago, Megorova said: Nevertheless he didn't went away from them, didn't even tried to start a new life somewhere else. A major part of Jon and Tyrion's not going somewhere else was that they were distinctly better off staying than leaving. Their standing was shit compared to true born legitimate children, but certainly better than if they had run off to sea or something. Anyway, eventually Jon did leave. He opted for going to the Wall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shouldve Taken The Black Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 3 hours ago, Megorova said: Jon was treated as Ned's son. But simultaneously he was abused because of his bastard status. Abused by servants at Winterfell, by Catelyn, Sansa and even Robb and Theon. Ned himself also didn't treated Jon same as his other sons. So Jon was a captive/hostage in that family, and they mistreated him. Another thing, he doesn't really identify with his abusers. Sure, he wants to be accepted as a Stark, but he seems to identify closest to those who show him love, and dislike those who show him hate. First Arya, who unconditionally loves him; followed by Robb, who loves him and respects him (though was mean on occasions in their youth); Bran and Rickon, who love and look up to him; followed lastly by Sansa, who treats him as an inferior. He despises Theon and hates Catelyn. It seems the amount of identification there is decreases with the amount of "abuse" he receives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Megorova Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 52 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said: Surely there's a difference between what Jon experienced and abuse though? Shit, I had a nasty step mother, mean siblings and bullying peers. Who didn't? I wouldn't consider that abuse. Granted, there was an element of discrimination due to his birth status, but I still think the term "abuse" is being used a bit freely. There are various forms of abuse. If Jon wasn't beaten or starved, while he lived at Winterfell, it doesn't mean that he wasn't abused. He suffered from psychological abuse. That could be seen in a way he thinks about having children. He doesn't want his children to live thru the same experience as he did. Though it's not experience of being a bastard child in general. Jon's mentality was influenced specifically by the way he was treated in Starks family. For example Sand girls are not abused in any way in Martells family. Same thing with bastard kids beyond The Wall. What Tormund said to Jon - whether bastards are weaker than other children, or worse than them in any sense. Wildlings don't treat bastard children any way different than other kids. 52 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said: A major part of Jon and Tyrion's not going somewhere else was that they were distinctly better off staying than leaving. Their standing was shit compared to true born legitimate children, but certainly better than if they had run off to sea or something. That's the reason why abused wives/children/partners don't go away from abusers, into safe houses or foster homes. Because here they are home. Even if they are mistreated, it feels more safe to them, than possible risks and dangers of some other alien and unknown place. Many chose to keep living in "golden cage", instead of chosing freedom. Because in their homes they know what to expect, they are used to their circumstances and to their abuser. People don't like changes, people don't like unstability, or to change the way they live. Even if their life will change for the better if they will leave, they are still unable, or don't want to get away. That is a part of Stockholm Syndrome - opposing possible changes, and also denying that there is an abuse. They lie to themselves that they are not abused, that they are not victims, and thus there's no reason for them to change the way they are living, and no need for them to go anywhere. Jon was able to see that if he will keep living in denial, trying for the rest of his life to please Catelyn, not to outshine Robb in any way, to make Ned proud of him, to make Sansa treat him better, to make Ned's people to respect him and treat him like they treated other children of Starks, he realised that he will be forever a victim of that mindset, and he won't live at all. He decided, that even at The Wall he has more chances to live a fuller life, than at Winterfell. Theon's betrayal of Starks, was his atempt to get out of mindset of a hostage, that became close to his "captors". He wanted to prove to himself, to his family, and to Starks, that they didn't tamed him, they didn't managed to make him their pet. They thought that he was harmless, so he wanted to show them that they were wrong, and that he is not their lap dog, he is a Big Bad Wolf, same as they are. Theon thought that he was abused, so he wanted to prove to everyone that he is not a victim, and the best way that he thought how to do it, is to become an abuser, and show them who's the boss. 52 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said: Their standing was shit but certainly better than if they had run off That was self-deception, for the sake of stability and opposing any possible changes. And this proves it: Lord Commander of Night's Watch has higher standing than the Bastard of Winterfell. Hand of Queen Daenerys Targaryen has higher standing than the Dwarf of Lannisters. By situations in which they were born and raised, they were made to think, that they are nothing without Starks/Lannisters, so they were reluctant to walk out, and live thru their own path. They thought that just being Jon/Tyrion won't be enough to become Someone. They were afraid of leaving safety of Starks/Lannisters, even if that safety was only in their imagination. Catelyn was going to get rid of Jon, after Ned left to KL, so Jon went to The Wall at just perfect time. And Cersei tried to kill Tyrion, by blaming him in Joffrey's death. So for both of them it wasn't actually safe, where they lived. They were in denial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Megorova Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 1 hour ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said: Another thing, he doesn't really identify with his abusers. Sure, he wants to be accepted as a Stark, but he seems to identify closest to those who show him love, and dislike those who show him hate. First Arya, who unconditionally loves him; followed by Robb, who loves him and respects him (though was mean on occasions in their youth); Bran and Rickon, who love and look up to him; followed lastly by Sansa, who treats him as an inferior. He despises Theon and hates Catelyn. It seems the amount of identification there is decreases with the amount of "abuse" he receives. Identifying with an abuser is not always part of Stockholm Syndrome. It's a complicated psychological state, in which different people may display variety of symptoms. Some may defend their abusers, or identify with them, while others may just hate them, but still won't oppose them or leave them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manchester_babe Posted January 5, 2018 Author Share Posted January 5, 2018 On 1/4/2018 at 3:25 AM, RedGrace that was promised said: Even if it happens it will be called Drogo syndrome, not Stockholm. But drogo loved Dany. :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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