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Question about the Master of Whisperers


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I have a quick question about the Master of Whisperers position, which I don’t think is directly addressed in the text.

It appears that the position was created by Maegor for Tyanna of Pentos, and we know that it has at least been intermittently used by kings since. It appears that usually they appear on the Small Council, though at least in the case of Qyburn after Cersei’s fall it was held by him after he was removed from the Council (perhaps as a stopgap until someone else could be installed).

My question is whether people think there was much continuity between the Masters of Whisperers and their networks, by which I mean would a new Master of Whisperers inherit a network from their predecessor, or build one from scratch?

Obviously, if a MoW was suddenly removed or killed, their network would be lost. We know Qyburn put the word out that he was now in Varys’s old role, and opportunists came forward, though despite Cersei’s thoughts, I sincerely doubt that would be enough. Otherwise, the MoW is an inherently unstable position, whereby whenever one leaves office, a King or Hand would have to appoint someone who is either untried, but they reckon would be good at the job (which is not exactly ideal, as it’s not exactly a common skill set), or appoint someone who already has their own private network of spies (who is unlikely to be very reliable, even if such a person could be found).

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I don't think it would be automatic that a new MoW would take over an old network, probably a good qualification for the job is already having a network. However, when the old MoW goes/leaves/dies, then there will be a lot of 'little birds' suddenly unemployed and looking to restore their income, so it's a fair bet a lot of them will find their way back somehow. Others may want to disappear as they could be in the bad books of the new MoW for previous activity...

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55 minutes ago, Rufus Snow said:

I don't think it would be automatic that a new MoW would take over an old network, probably a good qualification for the job is already having a network. However, when the old MoW goes/leaves/dies, then there will be a lot of 'little birds' suddenly unemployed and looking to restore their income, so it's a fair bet a lot of them will find their way back somehow. Others may want to disappear as they could be in the bad books of the new MoW for previous activity...

This is my thinking, it seems kind of ad hoc doesn't it? The system seems to be (from the Varys/Qyburn replacement), that you cast about for the nearest creepy and mysterious person hanging about and offer him employment. 

The logical thing to do would be for a MoW to have an apprentice or something. 

 

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9 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

The logical thing to do would be for a MoW to have an apprentice or something.

It would for continuity, but it could be dangerous for the incumbent. And does anything logical ever happen in the Red Keep?;)

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1 minute ago, Rufus Snow said:

It would for continuity, but it could be dangerous for the incumbent. And does anything logical ever happen in the Red Keep?

All good points.

I've been idly speculating about various different scenarios for ages now, and wondered if anyone had any other ideas.

For instance, an intelligent and active Hand (like Tyrion may have been if he had time to establish himself long term and sideline Cersei), would surely just remove someone like Varys and have his own spies. The only reason Tywin couldn't do that was Aerys wouldn't let him.

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Well, we do know that different players have their own networks, whether or not they are MoW, because Varys points out some of Cersei's and Littlefinger's spies to Ned.

With it being a feudal society loyalties are personal (or pecuniary...) rather than to an institution, so the references are usually to 'Varys's little birds' rather than the 'Crown's security service', for instance.

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5 minutes ago, Rufus Snow said:

Well, we do know that different players have their own networks, whether or not they are MoW, because Varys points out some of Cersei's and Littlefinger's spies to Ned.

Granted. You'd expect everyone to have spies. That does suggest that keeping an Uber Spymaster who is widely acknowledged to be working for himself is something of a risk.

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It would depend whether there is a proper/peaceful transfer of responsibilities within the same government. Say, a Master of Whisperers retiring because of old age would likely gladly transfer all his assets to his successor, especially if both of them were loyal to their king.

Varys clearly didn't do that, considering that he abandoned King Tommen and had never been loyal to the Baratheon-Lannister regime, anyway.

It is also an interesting question whether all kings from Maegor on had Masters of Whisperers. I'm inclined to believe that they must have had such people considering the importance of gathering sound information on what's going on in the Realm as well as abroad.

However, if Jaehaerys I abandoned the position for a time then Larys Strong - or whoever was named the next Master of Whisperers - would have to rebuild the office and its assets from scratch.

In relation to Varys we should keep in mind that the Targaryens must have always had maps from Maegor's days about the major hidden tunnels (in addition to the keys of all the locked doors Varys now has). The spy system via the hidden listening posts would have been managed by various Masters of Whisperers - especially by Varys' immediate predecessors under Aerys II - throughout the history of the Targaryen reign, but it seems Varys really was the first guy to perfect it by adapting his 'little mice system' from Pentos to Maegor's tunnels.

Earlier kings may have had their Masters of Whisperers man only certain tunnels with trusted agents.

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34 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

In relation to Varys we should keep in mind that the Targaryens must have always had maps from Maegor's days about the major hidden tunnels (in addition to the keys of all the locked doors Varys now has). The spy system via the hidden listening posts would have been managed by various Masters of Whisperers - especially by Varys' immediate predecessors under Aerys II - throughout the history of the Targaryen reign, but it seems Varys really was the first guy to perfect it by adapting his 'little mice system' from Pentos to Maegor's tunnels.

Earlier kings may have had their Masters of Whisperers man only certain tunnels with trusted agents.

It's said in one of the history novellas that Larys Strong knows the secrets of the Red Keep, and he sneaks Aegon out via the tunnels. Whether he used them for spying like Varys isn't mentioned, but I wouldn't be surprised. 

I think what's implied is that there were no immediate predecessors to Varys. Aerys brought him to court because of his increasing paranoia about Tywin and Rhaegar. Barristan Selmy says that the rot in Aerys court started with Varys. That doesn't necessarily mean that there were no predecessors in the role under Aerys, but I think it suggests it. 

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1 hour ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

It's said in one of the history novellas that Larys Strong knows the secrets of the Red Keep, and he sneaks Aegon out via the tunnels. Whether he used them for spying like Varys isn't mentioned, but I wouldn't be surprised. 

It seems Aegon II and his children used the secret escape tunnel, unconnected to the spy tunnels, Maegor had built into Maegor's Holdfast to have a means of escape. According to Varys - who most likely was informed about all this by consulting old Targaryen documents handed to him by Aerys II - this is the only tunnel in Maegor's Holdfast at all. Apparently, Maegor didn't want that people spied on him - or slipped into his bedchamber, murdering him in his sleep. And this actually makes a lot of sense.

Thus Larys Strong using said passage to get Aegon II and his children out of the castle doesn't indicate the man had thorough knowledge of the other secret tunnels - or used them to spy on the court. The whole Blood and Cheese episode indicates that Maegor's tunnels and listening post had actually falling out of use in the preceding decades. Kings like Viserys I and Jaehaerys I wouldn't have used them, most likely. But that doesn't mean they had no use for a Master of Whisperers as the head of secret service gathering information on potential sources of trouble at home and abroad.

1 hour ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

I think what's implied is that there were no immediate predecessors to Varys. Aerys brought him to court because of his increasing paranoia about Tywin and Rhaegar. Barristan Selmy says that the rot in Aerys court started with Varys. That doesn't necessarily mean that there were no predecessors in the role under Aerys, but I think it suggests it. 

That might be the case. But I'd be very surprised if it turned out Varys was Aerys' first Master of Whisperers. We know he was interested in gossip and rumors even before he appointed Varys, and one assumes that kind of pre-Varys system worked with and through Varys' predecessor as Master of Whisperers.

In addition, we do know from Lady Olenna that the Red Keep had been full of unseen ears even in her own youth, indicating that Aegon V actually made use of the listening posts and tunnels in his castle (possibly to stay one step ahead of the troublesome lords who continuously rebelled against him).

In any case, the Targaryens would have been in dire need of a Master of Whisperers since the days of Daeron II. The Blackfyres really kept them occupied. It seems as if Bloodraven served in that capacity during the reign of Daeron II, Aerys I, and Maekar (in addition to serving his nephews as Hand). Aegon V would have needed a Master of Whisperers, too. And if he had one, it is very unlikely Jaehaerys II (who had to deal with the Ninepenny Kings) or Aerys II abolished the office.

But it is very likely that the focus of Varys' predecessors was not so much on spying on the king's own court but rather on keeping an ear on the public opinion in the Realm at large and what was going on with the Blackfyres in their exile.

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1 minute ago, Lord Varys said:

Thus Larys Strong using said passage to get Aegon II and his children out of the castle doesn't indicate the man had thorough knowledge of the other secret tunnels - or used them to spy on the court.

I think it says elsewhere in the book that Larys "knew the Red Keep better than any man", or somesuch, but I don't have a book handy. Granted, this doesn't mean he used them to spy on court, but it suggests he knows the secret highways and byways. 

3 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

n addition, we do know from Lady Olenna that the Red Keep had been full of unseen ears even in her own youth, indicating that Aegon V actually made use of the listening posts and tunnels in his castle (possibly to stay one step ahead of the troublesome lords who continuously rebelled against him).

Excellent point. Certainly, the Red Keep was known to be full of ears. This may be a reputation built up over time though, particularly following Bloodraven's tenure. 

 

5 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

But it is very likely that the focus of Varys' predecessors was not so much on spying on the king's own court but rather on keeping an ear on the public opinion in the Realm at large and what was going on with the Blackfyres in their exile.

Another good point. I imagine the nature of the Master of Whisperers would depend on the nature of the King. Some may have been much less sinister and just more generally paying informers, hiring people to hang out in taverns listening to what's being said and so forth. 

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3 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

I think it says elsewhere in the book that Larys "knew the Red Keep better than any man", or somesuch, but I don't have a book handy. Granted, this doesn't mean he used them to spy on court, but it suggests he knows the secret highways and byways. 

I actually don't recall any such phrase. And the fact that Strong couldn't prevent Blood and Cheese indicates he had no men he could trust in the tunnels.

3 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Excellent point. Certainly, the Red Keep was known to be full of ears. This may be a reputation built up over time though, particularly following Bloodraven's tenure. 

Bloodraven certainly wouldn't have given the position of Master of Whisperers a good reputation. However, we don't know how the situation at court was while he was Hand. We have yet to learn whether people had to guard their tongues all the time because Bloodraven's people were listening. And considering his magical abilities he may have other means to ferret out secrets.

Depending what lords were living at Aegon V's court - and serving on his council - one certainly could imagine that the man was forced to keep some of these people under a close watch.

3 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Another good point. I imagine the nature of the Master of Whisperers would depend on the nature of the King. Some may have been much less sinister and just more generally paying informers, hiring people to hang out in taverns listening to what's being said and so forth. 

Most definitely. Men like Jaehaerys I, Viserys I, Aegon III, Viserys II, Daeron II, Aegon V, Jaehaerys II, and even the young Aerys II wouldn't have used their Masters of Whisperers to spy on everyone and collect treasonous gossip and rumors with the intention of punishing minor offenses and (harmless) treasonous thoughts and talk.

On the other hand, Maegor, Aegon II, Rhaenyra, Aegon IV, and the late Aerys II would have been very interested in stuff like that.

George actually has his characters show us their character and priorities via their policies regarding the Master of Whisperers. Varys gives Tyrion a number of reports in ACoK one of which is gossip about a toast Ser Balon Swann gave to the various kings. That was a test to see what Tyrion's priorities are. He passed it by making it clear that doesn't give a damn about gossip and bad jokes.

Later on, in AFfC, Cersei immediately jumps on Qyburn's report on the play about the dragon devouring the arrogant lions. That wasn't a deliberate test on Qyburn's part but it is an echo of the earlier scene illustrating Cersei's political priorities - which are, quite obviously, completely wrong.

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