Is Robert to blame for Joffery being a bad king?

[Varysblackfyre321]

I know this has been touched upon in other threads but I found it to be locked and I still wanted to share my thoughts. My view is that Joffery while probably would grow up to be a monster did not need to be a bad king.

He's shown he can be an intelligent guy. 

I feel if Robert had tried setting a good example for the boy Joffery's rule might have not been so disasterous.

 Like others have pointed out(and I tend to agree), a lot of what Joffery actually did can be seen as a more perverse version  than what he's seen Robert has done and or something he thought would win Robert's approval.

Such as killing the pregnant cat and presenting the carcass to Robert(who loves hunting), trying to kill Bran because Robert said crippled kids need to be euthanized, having his guards beat his wife which I don't know how often but I imagine domestic abuse would be something Joffery would see Robert commit in arguements with Cersi(which were frequent), especially when he was drunk(which was often).

His Idea of patience is weakness, the idea of a king having no responsibilty all that comes from Robert. 

What do you think?

 

[The Sunland Lord]

No, his mother and father are.

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

I think you’re right. Robert has his share of responsibility for how Joffery turned out. Joff might not have been his son, but he didn’t know that, and at the very least Robert was negligent.

That being said, I think Cersei was mostly at fault. She countered Robert’s neglect by showering Joffery with ridiculous notions about what being a king is, and defended him whatever horrendous thing he did.

[Shi Qiang]

One parent, both parent, no parent -- all can ruin a child.  Good parents but bad childhood friends can ruin a child.  Culture can ruin a child.  But I do take your point, the killing of the cat was a warning sign.  One could also argue back and say Arya killing Dareon and the old businessman in Braavos are stronger warning signs as to the child's future but that's a discussion for another day. 

Robert, Cersei, and Jaime are the ones responsible for making Joffrey the way he was.  Parenting in those times is woefully inadequate by our standards but those adults were poor examples even by theirs.  I have to give Cersei a little break here because it is hard to correct the heir to the throne.  Robert could have done more. 

[Varysblackfyre321]

9 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

I think you’re right. Robert has his share of responsibility for how Joffery turned out. Joff might not have been his son, but he didn’t know that, and at the very least Robert was negligent.

That being said, I think Cersei was mostly at fault. She countered Robert’s neglect by showering Joffery with ridiculous notions about what being a king is, and defended him whatever horrendous thing he did.

 

9 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

I think you’re right. Robert has his share of responsibility for how Joffery turned out. Joff might not have been his son, but he didn’t know that, and at the very least Robert was negligent.

That being said, I think Cersei was mostly at fault. She countered Robert’s neglect by showering Joffery with ridiculous notions about what being a king is, and defended him whatever horrendous thing he did.

Having a mother like Cersi whispering in his ear didn't help(hell gods be praised she very much tried to ruin Tommen by trying to jerk him away from acting well like a good ruler), but still the impression I got from their relationship Joffery being a chief misogonist(thank you Robert), is that he didn't even respect Cersi or her advice on how to rule because she has a vagina. But constant reaffirment does help. 

Sorry I'm being a little unfair to Robert here-the society of Westeroes is a patriarchy so Robert isn't entirely to blame for Joffery being a gross misogonist.

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

7 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

but still the impression I got from their relationship Joffery being a chief misogonist(thank you Robert), is that he didn't even respect Cersi or her advice on how to rule because she has a vagina. But constant reaffirment does help. 

Yeah, Joffery made a few comments about and to his mother, but I think he genuinely feared her (such as when Tyrion suggested they send for Cersei when he was beating Sansa), and was happy for her to run the kingdoms. 

Just generally, Cersei seemed to have a terrible parenting style. Shower a boy, who as a Prince doesn't exactly need confidence boosts, with smothering affection, tell him he, his wants needs and feelings are the most important things in the world, and smite anyone who tries to check him; and yeah, he'll turn into an egotistical monster. 

The way I see it – if Robert had been the only parent, Joffery might still have turned into a massive jerk, but that’s all.

If Cersei had been the only parent, there’s a very good chance Joffery would have been essentially the same.

[Varysblackfyre321]

18 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Yeah, Joffery made a few comments about and to his mother, but I think he genuinely feared her (such as when Tyrion suggested they send for Cersei when he was beating Sansa), and was happy for her to run the kingdoms. 

Just generally, Cersei seemed to have a terrible parenting style. Shower a boy, who as a Prince doesn't exactly need confidence boosts, with smothering affection, tell him he, his wants needs and feelings are the most important things in the world, and smite anyone who tries to check him; and yeah, he'll turn into an egotistical monster. 

The way I see it – if Robert had been the only parent, Joffery might still have turned into a massive jerk, but that’s all.

If Cersei had been the only parent, there’s a very good chance Joffery would have been essentially the same.

I think Joffery no matter the parenting style would have been a monster-straight up a  normal 3 year old boy doesn't murder a pregnant cat dig out what's left and present it to his father. 

I have to say I find it frustrating that Cersi decides she must undercut Tommen everytime he shows a whiff of trying to be slightly independent yet refused to really put a lease on Joffery. 

But I don't really know what the effect Cersi's absence while growing up would effect Joffery's behavior.

I actually imagine he'd take more extremes to prove his manliness to his alpha male father. 

[zandru]

4 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

He's shown he can be an intelligent guy. 

I must have missed these parts?

I agree with everyone that Robert proved a very bad example and seemed to have been distant to the point of non-existance as a father. His style of kingship pretty much exemplified all the worst aspects of the feudal system. Joffers seems to have absorbed it all. Then there was Cersei who, like Lysa Arryn, indoctrinated the boy in his Absolute Power as the Lord of yada yada. A better, smarter person would have indoctrinated Joffrey/Little Robert in the awesome responsibilities of his post, made sure he studied his little arse off, and had him sit quietly in most of the important meetings. Then, if he was elevated during his "childhood", making sure the actual power resided with a trusted Regent, not himself.

Let's also beat the poor Dog - Sandor Clegane. His job was to help Joffrey look and feel like a Manly Man, and also protect him as he strutted around, secure in the knowledge that his "dog" would ensure his actions and remarks had no consequence to him. Well, we can blame Cersei for that, too. The Hound was actually her dog.

[Moiraine Sedai]

Yes but Cersei has to take some blame.  Parenthood is serious responsibility.

 

[Dorian Martell's son]

5 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

What do you think?

Piss poor parenting and the insanity of incest

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

1 hour ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Piss poor parenting and the insanity of incest

I hear those words are being inscribed over the entrance to the White House.

5 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

I think Joffery no matter the parenting style would have been a monster-straight up a  normal 3 year old boy doesn't murder a pregnant cat dig out what's left and present it to his father.

Kids actually can be very cruel to animals, it's how/if they're disciplined that matters. 

[Kandrax]

I have feeling that some readers consider incident with cat equal to Ramsay's huntings, destruction of Saltapns and murder of Elia and her children.

[Trigger Warning]

Nobles typically don't raise their children anyway, Joffrey might try to emulate Robert but it's always in a way that's exaggerated by his own sadism. 

[zandru]

2 hours ago, Kandrax said:

I have feeling that some readers consider incident with cat equal to Ramsay's huntings, destruction of Saltapns and murder of Elia and her children.

I'd been noticing that, too. My take on the incident was that Joffrey was stupid: he was told the cat "had kittens inside her" and didn't realize that the kittens would emerge when it was their time, and by killing the mother, he'd kill the kittens, too. Anyone who wasn't Robert Baratheon would be justifiably horrified and would explain these things to Joffrey, and furthermore, let him know he did a really bad thing. Maybe think of some way the kid might make up for it, and learn something. Instead, King Robert knocked him across the room without further explanation. Moral: violence RULES!

Later on, Joffrey killed Tommen's pet fawn so Joffrey could have a cool spotted jerkin. He'd never learned any respect for animal life, nor for pets. Or other people's things.

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

2 hours ago, zandru said:

I'd been noticing that, too. My take on the incident was that Joffrey was stupid: he was told the cat "had kittens inside her" and didn't realize that the kittens would emerge when it was their time, and by killing the mother, he'd kill the kittens, too. Anyone who wasn't Robert Baratheon would be justifiably horrified and would explain these things to Joffrey, and furthermore, let him know he did a really bad thing. Maybe think of some way the kid might make up for it, and learn something. Instead, King Robert knocked him across the room without further explanation.

 

5 hours ago, Kandrax said:

I have feeling that some readers consider incident with cat equal to Ramsay's huntings, destruction of Saltapns and murder of Elia and her children.

It's interesting to me that Cersei calls the cat incident "mischief" while Stannis says Joff was trying to get a kitten out for himself. Either way we know Robert hit the boy.

What would Joff learn from this? Joff clearly displays a lack of empathy or love for animals throughout his short life, but I would assume this was the first major incident given how young he was. Was this the trigger? Was Joff subconsciously trying to impress his daddy by bringing him a dead cat (lion), displaying his disallegiance to his mother's house? Joff then accepts the lion in him based on his father's disapproval over that cat cutting while still seeking Robert's approval through other deeds? I don't know, but good ideas to ponder.

Also, I love how George shoves the contrast between Joff and Tommen by having Tommen absolutely love everything about cats.

[Curled Finger]

6 hours ago, Kandrax said:

I have feeling that some readers consider incident with cat equal to Ramsay's huntings, destruction of Saltapns and murder of Elia and her children.

A little boy killing a pregnant cat then presenting a carcass is a definite sign of something gone very wrong.   How could Joffrey have equated killing this domestic creature with big game hunting?  This cat is pregnant, slowing it down.   The point being it was not hunting, but cruelty and the point to Joffrey was not hunting but killing.   That says to me that Joffrey considered his father a killer and sought his approval in simple killing.   No sport there.   

[Curled Finger]

I think a lot of Joffrey's misanthropy could have been curtailed by being fostered with his grandfather.   Tywin wouldn't have put up with any bad behavior.   He may have taught that brat to be a real king.  

[Sourjapes]

7 hours ago, Kandrax said:

I have feeling that some readers consider incident with cat equal to Ramsay's huntings, destruction of Saltapns and murder of Elia and her children.

I don't but it is indicative of a child who may already have psychopathic tendencies. How many children murder small animals? Not many. Robert was a bad father but he wasn't a psychopath. At one point did he ever teach Jofferey to give out cruel punishments to subjects who angered him in some way? Did Robert ever take shots at hungry peasants with a crossbow? Did he toy with people's feelings by offering mercy and then interpreting that mercy as a swift death rather than a slow one?

 

Robert could have been a better parent but a child still has an innate nature and a parent, especially one who is not actually the biological parent, can't always provide a meaningful influence no matter what they do. I think Jofferey's cruelty goes much deeper than their Robert's or even Cersei's parenting. After all Tommen and Myrcella were raised in the same environment and they are nothing like their older brother. Cersei and Jaimie and Tyrion were raised in the same environment but are each quite different and among them Cersei has, from a young age, always displayed a penchant for cruelty. It's not as if she was ever groomed for Kingship like she tried to do with Joff, either.

Though I think Jofferey is ultimately more psychopathic than his mother, I think his psychopathy still comes from her.

[Sourjapes]

4 hours ago, zandru said:

 

Later on, Joffrey killed Tommen's pet fawn so Joffrey could have a cool spotted jerkin. He'd never learned any respect for animal life, nor for pets. Or other people's things.

I would argue that Joffrey CAN'T learn such things. Not in the way you or I would. He would ever, ever, ever empathize with the cat or the fawn or with his brother. If he ever learned a way to value the cat or the fawn it would only be within the context of how is treatment of them causes other people to look at him. If Joffrey had been told that a kitchen maid had a baby inside her and he cut her open would you still think he was just dumb or confused?

[Lion of the West]

I certainly think that Robert was guilty of the way that Joffrey turned out but naturally he wasn't the sole culprit.