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Is Robert to blame for Joffery being a bad king?


Varysblackfyre321

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You are right in saying Robert could have been a better role model. In essence I believe Joffrey's mean and cruel nature originated from his father( Yes I know his real father is Jaime but he grew up believing Robert to be his father) never spending any time with him. Robert would either go whoring and leave his son alone with his mother as well as going off hunting and the fact that he never brought Joffrey with him to any of the hunting trips made Joffrey feel he needed to do something to win the approval of his father. He tried to mimic everything his father did(As many sons do while growing up). Treated women like filth and killing or torturing animals because that is what he believed right as his father was his role model. I believe that had Robert been there for Joffrey and taught him right from wrong than Joffrey might have still become a madman but he would probably descend into madness much slower like Aerys II and only truly become mad when he mas much older and wouldn't be as cruel. Aerys, Steffon and Tywin had been good friends at court when they were younger and maybe Joffrey would have been nicer with the Stark children and even try to forge a friendship with Robb ,Jon and Bran just like the mad king did in his youth with Steffon and Tywin . He may even have treated Sansa with respect and his true colors would only emerge when he would become much older. I know this sounds far fetched but please tell me what you think of my theory?

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2 hours ago, LordMilner said:

You are right in saying Robert could have been a better role model. In essence I believe Joffrey's mean and cruel nature originated from his father( Yes I know his real father is Jaime but he grew up believing Robert to be his father) never spending any time with him. Robert would either go whoring and leave his son alone with his mother as well as going off hunting and the fact that he never brought Joffrey with him to any of the hunting trips made Joffrey feel he needed to do something to win the approval of his father. He tried to mimic everything his father did(As many sons do while growing up). Treated women like filth and killing or torturing animals because that is what he believed right as his father was his role model. I believe that had Robert been there for Joffrey and taught him right from wrong than Joffrey might have still become a madman but he would probably descend into madness much slower like Aerys II and only truly become mad when he mas much older and wouldn't be as cruel. Aerys, Steffon and Tywin had been good friends at court when they were younger and maybe Joffrey would have been nicer with the Stark children and even try to forge a friendship with Robb ,Jon and Bran just like the mad king did in his youth with Steffon and Tywin . He may even have treated Sansa with respect and his true colors would only emerge when he would become much older. I know this sounds far fetched but please tell me what you think of my theory?

I think that you are wrong in that Joffrey was preordained to become mad. I don't think he had any mental illness of mentioning but was raised very, very poorly raised for the very reasons you pointed out.

Say that Cersei wasn't so, well, vile and that Robert made an effort to raise Joffrey and perhaps make some good knight picked in a Barristan Selmy vein to be his sworn shield and I think that we would get an entirely different Joffrey.

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I wondere why Joffrey was so obsessed with crossbows. Most young nobles want to be good with a sword and maybe as a Baratheon Joff wanted to emulate Robert and use a war hammer. Though I don't think Joff had the build to wield a war hammer. Tommen on the other hand seems to enjoy martial prowess and sparring. He gave Bran all he could handle in Winterfell and even tries to joust.  Tommen is more plump then Joffrey but sometimes plump children grow into muscular young adults. The Beetsbane just might be the one to carry Robert's war hammer into battle. Woe to (f)Aegon and everyone else had GRRM gone through with the five year plan. King Tommen Baratheon would have crushed them all to beet juice.

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No. As far as I understand it it's not really expected of nobelmen to educate their children themselves until they reach a certain age, and Joffry was just starting to be old enough when Robert noticed just how much of a prick he was. And everytime he wanted to do something about Joff's problematic behaviour, Cersei intervened. You can blame Robert for not trying hard enough, sure, but it's still 90% Cersei's fault (the part that isn't just on Joffry himself, at least). Robert at best caused the problems indirectly by not doing enough, while Cersei actively encouraged much of his bad behaviour.

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On 05/01/2018 at 0:22 PM, Varysblackfyre321 said:

I feel if Robert had tried setting a good example for the boy Joffery's rule might have not been so disasterous.

How would he do that? Robert is clearly not capable of ruling his own castle(Storm's End), let alone a kingdom. Robert likes to live, he likes to drink, to have sex, to chase girls. Robert doesn't like to have responsabilities, we see this over and over. He doesn't like to rule, he doesn't care about his bastards, and children can bore him quickly. The show was rather realistic about him, Robert admitted on his deathbed that he wasn't meant to be a father. That's why he asked Ned to make Joffrey better than him.

It's a sad thing, but there isn't much a person who doesn't like responsabilities can actually teach a child. With Robert, but especially Cersei, Joffrey was doomed. Tommen and Myrcella turned out better because Robert and Cersei ignored them.

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As far as I saw in the books, Joffrey has some bad characteristics: cruel, sadistic, reckless,vicious, stubborn and rude. The environment he grew up didn't teach him to keep in check his worst traits and develop his talents.

It is implied that Joffrey craved Robert's respect and approval, and many of his acts were done in an effort to live up to his father's standards. But as we see Robert has little affection for Joffrey, seems disappointed for him and ignores him. Generally, Robert was a bad type of father: womanizer, beated his wife, showed little care for his children and ruling and more for having fun. I think Joffrey-Sansa is a mirroring of Robert-Cersei because of what happened in this family and things would be the same for Margaery Tyrell.

But he is not 100% responsible for his son's character. Cersei, hot-tempered,stubborn and rude herself spoiled Joffrey and made him think he can do whatever he wants.

Joffrey didn't seem to have friends of his age.That was also important for his development.

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12 hours ago, LionoftheWest said:

I think that you are wrong in that Joffrey was preordained to become mad. I don't think he had any mental illness of mentioning but was raised very, very poorly raised for the very reasons you pointed out.

Say that Cersei wasn't so, well, vile and that Robert made an effort to raise Joffrey and perhaps make some good knight picked in a Barristan Selmy vein to be his sworn shield and I think that we would get an entirely different Joffrey.

Yeah It's 50 50 for me. On one side I would believe the way he was raised made him so cruel but I also feel because his mother and father being brother and sister it could lead to some form of mental problems.

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10 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

The crossbow is a coward's weapon. Joff is a coward. 

 

 

Which makes it all the more impressive that Tommen uses non cowardly weapons despite being so much younger. The Beetsbane wanted nothing to do with Joff's crossbows even though it was his predecessors chosen weapon. Unlike Joff, Tommen adopted his father's and fake father's martial prowess. If he lives past puberty he'll be a deadly foe to any man who crosses him.

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19 hours ago, LionoftheWest said:

I certainly think that Robert was guilty of the way that Joffrey turned out but naturally he wasn't the sole culprit.

I think that Robert was guilty of it in the sense that he clearly didn't do enough to correct it, though it is worth noting that not all kids needs to be corrected in the way that Joffrey did. Most don't, in fact. Joffrey was probably always going ot have extremely limited empathy and a penchant for selfish-ness and cruelty, but if Robert had more attentive he might have gotten an heir was vain and cruel but wise enough to have a stable rule.

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8 hours ago, Endymion I Targaryen said:

As far as I saw in the books, Joffrey has some bad characteristics: cruel, sadistic, reckless,vicious, stubborn and rude. The environment he grew up didn't teach him to keep in check his worst traits and develop his talents.

It is implied that Joffrey craved Robert's respect and approval, and many of his acts were done in an effort to live up to his father's standards. But as we see Robert has little affection for Joffrey, seems disappointed for him and ignores him. Generally, Robert was a bad type of father: womanizer, beated his wife, showed little care for his children and ruling and more for having fun. I think Joffrey-Sansa is a mirroring of Robert-Cersei because of what happened in this family and things would be the same for Margaery Tyrell.

But he is not 100% responsible for his son's character. Cersei, hot-tempered,stubborn and rude herself spoiled Joffrey and made him think he can do whatever he wants.

Joffrey didn't seem to have friends of his age.That was also important for his development.

I was going to post something like this, but you stole the words from my mouth. Joffrey seems to be naturally sadistic and cruel and his environment didn't help.

He craved Robert's attention, but Robert didn't care much for anything apart drinking, whoring and hunting. This certainly put him under a lot of stress and anxiety what in turn may spur him onto more extreme and crueller actions and thoughts.

Cersei, her turn, is super protective of her children. She is too proud and too arrogant to think anyone is good enough to be her children friend or companion. She is also to condescending to stop Joffrey. Her education of Joffrey reflects her belief that Lannister are a far superior brand of people than the other families.

Now answering the topic question: Maybe if Robert took more interest in parenting, Joffrey would be different. Robert could easily displace Cersei as Joff "main parent" because it was him that Joff tried to impress with his acts. And maybe he could fix some of his character issues. But I still think Joffrey would be somewhat vain and cruel at the end.

10 hours ago, theMADdestScientist_ said:

How would he do that? Robert is clearly not capable of ruling his own castle(Storm's End), let alone a kingdom. Robert likes to live, he likes to drink, to have sex, to chase girls. Robert doesn't like to have responsabilities, we see this over and over. He doesn't like to rule, he doesn't care about his bastards, and children can bore him quickly. The show was rather realistic about him, Robert admitted on his deathbed that he wasn't meant to be a father. That's why he asked Ned to make Joffrey better than him.

It's a sad thing, but there isn't much a person who doesn't like responsabilities can actually teach a child. With Robert, but especially Cersei, Joffrey was doomed. Tommen and Myrcella turned out better because Robert and Cersei ignored them.

It's hard to say that Cersei ignored Tommen and Myrcella at all. I think theres some evidence that proves the opposite actually:

-> Cersei is worried about Tommen hanging at the training yeard and is specially worried when she learns he is becoming close to Lorras.

-> Cersei seems to be genuinelly worried about Tyrion sending her children away. Tyrion scheme to deceit Pycelle, LF and Varys proves that she would veto any of the deals, even the safest one (Myrcella sent to the Vale).

-> I'm not 100% sure, but I think Tyrion sometimes admits that Cersei actually love her children and possibly those are the only persons she actually loves. He certainly gets to this conclusion based on what he has seen of his sister relation with the kids. 

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Joffrey is born as a twisted person. In his earliest age  (I forgot how old he was) he opened the belly of a pregnant cat and took the unborn baby cats out. You can not go more evil than that. Most psychopaths beginn their cruelness in the early age by being cruel to animals, since they are helpless and the only beings that the kid is able to harm in this early stage. It is pretty clear that GRRM views Joffrey as a psychopath or even more precisely a sociopath who was born that way. 

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18 minutes ago, Dragonsbone said:

Joffrey is born as a twisted person. In his earliest age  (I forgot how old he was) he opened the belly of a pregnant cat and took the unborn baby cats out. You can not go more evil than that. Most psychopaths beginn their cruelness in the early age by being cruel to animals, since they are helpless and the only beings that the kid is able to harm in this early stage. It is pretty clear that GRRM views Joffrey as a psychopath or even more precisely a sociopath who was born that way. 

The question isn't whether or not Joffery could have been a good person-I agree such a possibility was too far gone but whether or not Ribert's influence could have made him a better king. 

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I have to say there are interesting parallels between Robb and Joffery. Both, weren't fostered at other houses(such was common), both lost their father at a young age, both found themselves thrust forward as king and both try to emulate the best leader they think they know, their father.  Joffery got the shorter end of the deal since he's never actually seen how a king is supposed to act. I can't help but think if Robert at least tried(I know he wouldn't), he could help the kid be a little less unfit to be a ruler. 

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7 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

The question isn't whether or not Joffery could have been a good person-I agree such a possibility was too far gone but whether or not Ribert's influence could have made him a better king. 

OK. But still there is only so much you can do to change or influence a person. In the case of Joffrey, who is cruel, twisted and evil inside, there is no chance you can change him. The only way was to use force and fear like Tywin did. 

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On Saturday, January 06, 2018 at 4:43 AM, Curled Finger said:

I think a lot of Joffrey's misanthropy could have been curtailed by being fostered with his grandfather.   Tywin wouldn't have put up with any bad behavior.   He may have taught that brat to be a real king.  

Nature vs nurture?

It is Joffs nature to be cruel.  His mother nurtures him in a way that reinforces his gods given right as the crown princes to do what he likes.  Think Joff killed the wolf on the Trident "true version" of events she plants in his head.  This then leads to flights of fancy where he will take the gold cloaks and take out Renly and his 80k army.

His father is sickened by his nature and says as much to Ned, he no doubt has tried to correct his son, and I would say probably countered by his mother (2 parents with different ideals of raising their is always hard) but the kings actions/legend have also nurtured this sense of absolute power.

Where Tywin would be a good mentor is not that he would change his grandsons nature, but nurture him to rule.  He would probably still be sick in the head but more Roose than Ramsey.

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1 hour ago, elder brother jonothor dar said:

Nature vs nurture?

It is Joffs nature to be cruel.  His mother nurtures him in a way that reinforces his gods given right as the crown princes to do what he likes.  Think Joff killed the wolf on the Trident "true version" of events she plants in his head.  This then leads to flights of fancy where he will take the gold cloaks and take out Renly and his 80k army.

His father is sickened by his nature and says as much to Ned, he no doubt has tried to correct his son, and I would say probably countered by his mother (2 parents with different ideals of raising their is always hard) but the kings actions/legend have also nurtured this sense of absolute power.

Where Tywin would be a good mentor is not that he would change his grandsons nature, but nurture him to rule.  He would probably still be sick in the head but more Roose than Ramsey.

Isn't Tywin himself cruel? Still he is the most respected if not feared man in the land.  What says the very mean and nasty factor isn't a Lannister trait?  Joff's madness needed direction or purpose, such as Tywin found in the Reynes and Tarbecks.  Joff wanted to establish an army.   He may have done well with war games instead of tethered to a castle with way too much power on his hands.   I don't mean that Tywin could have changed Joffrey's propensity for cruelty, only that he could have taught him how to channel it.    

(I know you get it, Ser.   Above was for the benefit of other readers only.   Thank you for seeing the merit in my post.) 

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15 hours ago, Petyr Lannister said:

It's hard to say that Cersei ignored Tommen and Myrcella at all. I think theres some evidence that proves the opposite actually:

Yes, she "cares" about them, we know that. But she didn't gave Tommen and Myrcella the same amount of attention she gave the "heir" to the throne.

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On 1/6/2018 at 3:22 AM, Ralphis Baratheon said:

I wondere why Joffrey was so obsessed with crossbows. Most young nobles want to be good with a sword and maybe as a Baratheon Joff wanted to emulate Robert and use a war hammer. Though I don't think Joff had the build to wield a war hammer. Tommen on the other hand seems to enjoy martial prowess and sparring. He gave Bran all he could handle in Winterfell and even tries to joust.  Tommen is more plump then Joffrey but sometimes plump children grow into muscular young adults. The Beetsbane just might be the one to carry Robert's war hammer into battle. Woe to (f)Aegon and everyone else had GRRM gone through with the five year plan. King Tommen Baratheon would have crushed them all to beet juice.

A crossbow then seems much like a gun today to me.   It's a cheap and cowardly way to kill.  Mechanical doesn't require strength nor does it require one to be close to their prey.  There is no real investment in the killing.   Only killing.  Like the pregnant cat.   There is no way that was sport.   Only killing.   Joff missed the whole point of hunting. 

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