Harrenhall Through A Little Crannogman’s Eyes

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

 Wow! I do life stuff for 48 hours and I missed almost 10 pages! You are on fire @Curled Finger.

I have to find some reading time.

[divica]

8 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

I tent to stop short at Yoren because of his description in the books and Jon's own reaction to seeing him, like his ideals about the Night's Watch get sucked right out of him before he even arrives at Castle Black. Sansa feels sorry for Jon when she sees Yoren because she thought all the men of the Night's Watch were like Benjen. Tyrion describes him as stooped and sinister. 

We don't know what Yoren looked like in 281 and 15 years later he may not have looked the same, people do change. Maybe he bathed and washed his clothes more frequently and didn't have the twisted shoulders. 

But I think for a tourney that has all these great lords, the crown prince there, it's not someone like Yoren or bloody Mance Rayder who may or may not have been born of a wildling mother you want.

I think for a tourney of this magnitude, you want, but someone like Denys Mallister instead who is highborn, well-spoken, a knight, someone who in his youth entered the lists. He's from the riverlands and he might have known a lot of the people who were attending the tourney. 

I'd be really surprised if Yoren or Mance were anywhere near that tourney. Yoren is dead, so we won't be finding out anything from him.

I don t know. While I agree that mance wouldn t be the main representative he is well spoken and sings. So he could be there to atract lesser knights from the parties of the great lords and observe how his older officer recruits people

[Curled Finger]

Ah great stuff everyone.  At work now can't wait to catch up with every one tonight.  

[The Commentator]

4 hours ago, Lady Dacey said:

I think our black brother is a young Yoren. He was a recruiter for thirty years... It was his duty to get people from around the realm to go to the Wall. We only see him geting "the pick of the dungeons", but we can see that he would also try and convince knights and men at arms to join, like Jon wants Daeron to do. 

Yoren tells Arya he's been taking man to the Wall through the kings road for 30 years 

So he would have been a young recruiter by the year of the false spring. 

It was Yoren.

[Faera]

52 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Haven't you thought that "ten leagues from Harrenhal" may have been given not by GRRM, but rather by his co-authors of that book, and that GRRM himself didn't gave any specifications about where exactly Lyanna was kidnapped?

Yeah... I considered that a lot. Especially since it’s through the POV of a maester. Still, it’s the best we’ve got until there is a So Spake Martin that better confirms whereabouts she was.

53 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Aside from Rushing Falls, that unnamed inn, and ruines of Whitewalls, there's absolutely nothing else, not ten leagues from Harrenhal. Kingsroad also could be in that radius, though if Lyanna was going to Riverrun, she was supposed to go to River Road after Darry castle. If Rhaegar met her on Kingsroad near God's Eye, then she was traveling to King's Landing, or to God's Eye. The island in the middle of God's Eye is further from Harrenhal than 10 leagues. So that leaves either Rushing Falls or Whitewalls.

This hits the nail on the head. Whether it was 10, 20 or 50 leagues, the bottom line is that the nearest landmark Lyanna was at was Harrenhal — so, what was she doing there?

Harrenhal is east of Riverrun. If she was coming from Winterfell, she would have missed the turn off at the River Road. The only way it makes sense is if she was traveling from the south (from the Crownlands) or had purposely diverted her travel party for a good reason. I’m just curious. Perhaps it’s just because the locations and distances aren’t finalised or ironed out yet but it is fun to speculate where Lyanna was and where she went after Rhaegar, Arthur and Oswell fell upon her.

I also wonder how big her party was and if any of them were killed or did Lyanna just... run to Rhaegar, jump up on his horse and hightail it out of there before anyone knew what the hell happened? People would insist she was abducted whether he killed her entourage in order to take her or she leapt into his arms crying, “Take me, Prince Rhaegar!” or anything in between.

[Megorova]

13 hours ago, divica said:

after ned told the KG that the last remaining targs and suposed rightful king escaped from westeros wihtout any KG, the 3 KG chosed to fight ned at the ToJ than go after the supposed rightful king. I think this says a lot. 

It says that Lyanna's boy was son of Crown Prince, and thus by law, was next in line to be King of 7K. So KG were staying where they should have - guarding their King.

13 hours ago, Edgar Allen Poemont said:

I've been following this trail for a few weeks now. I think it is Mance. I did a reread tonight and the mention of the NW man giving a speech jumped right out at me. I never noticed it so clearly before. I'm beginning to really believe Mance is the KoTLT.

Even if that Crow was Mance, why would he fight to avenge Howland? And how come did he escaped just in time to avoid unmasking?

13 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

I think it could certainly be Mance, though I admit this is the 1st time I've ever seen that as a possibility.   I can't go all in on it without something.   A mention from Mance, Barristan recalling the black brother singing--just something.   I'm not great with foreshadowing or symbolism so I beg your pardon for not being able to dazzle you with something or worse yet, if I'm way off, so take it at your own risk.   Because of all the other important people in attendance at Harrenhal I'm thinking it should be Mance as another king-to-be noted and mentioned by our little Crannogman. 

That Crow could be anyone. And not necessary someone significant, or important for further plot.

13 hours ago, LynnS said:

It seems that sending singing brothers out to recruit has a history in the NW. 

Because that's logical - singing attracts people, so when they gather, the preaching begins - Join Night's Watch! Join Night's Watch!

[divica]

1 minute ago, Megorova said:

It says that Lyanna's boy was son of Crown Prince, and thus by law, was next in line to be King of 7K. So KG were staying where they should have - guarding their King.

I always had some doubts about jon's legitimacy but after hearing that argument they vanished.

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, divica said:

I don t know. While I agree that mance wouldn t be the main representative he is well spoken and sings. So he could be there to atract lesser knights from the parties of the great lords and observe how his older officer recruits people

Sure, it's not any more far fetched than Lyanna giving birth in a rickety watch tower, ready to fall down, cared for by other people in a room that smelled of bood and roses.    

[Megorova]

1 hour ago, Faera said:

Harrenhal is east of Riverrun. If she was coming from Winterfell, she would have missed the turn off at the River Road. The only way it makes sense is if she was traveling from the south (from the Crownlands) or had purposely diverted her travel party for a good reason. I’m just curious. Perhaps it’s just because the locations and distances aren’t finalised or ironed out yet but it is fun to speculate where Lyanna was and where she went after Rhaegar, Arthur and Oswell fell upon her.

I also wonder how big her party was and if any of them were killed or did Lyanna just... run to Rhaegar, jump up on his horse and hightail it out of there before anyone knew what the hell happened? People would insist she was abducted whether he killed her entourage in order to take her or she leapt into his arms crying, “Take me, Prince Rhaegar!” or anything in between.

Could be that she was going to Riverrun from King's Landing. And there's an explanation what she was doing at KL

What if, as Queen of Love and Beauty of Harrenhal, Lyanna had subsequent duties, like in modern times have winners of beauty pageants? Like attending various social gatherings, balls, feasts, charity events, being guest of honor at weddings and birthdays of nobles, etc. Maybe she even had to be officially introduced to royal court, and temporarely be part of it, like becoming lady-in-waiting of Queen Rhaella, or something like that. And she had to do all of it together with Rhaegar, because he was Harrenhal's Chamption, and she was Queen of Tournament. So prior Rhaegar "kidnapped" Lyanna, the two of them together for nearly a year attended various events, as a couple. Thus for nearly a year after Tournament, they were spending a lot of time together, and that's how they fell in love, and eventually decided to elope.

[Ser Leftwich]

1 hour ago, Faera said:

Yeah... I considered that a lot. Especially since it’s through the POV of a maester. Still, it’s the best we’ve got until there is a So Spake Martin that better confirms whereabouts she was.

This hits the nail on the head. Whether it was 10, 20 or 50 leagues, the bottom line is that the nearest landmark Lyanna was at was Harrenhal — so, what was she doing there?

Harrenhal is east of Riverrun. If she was coming from Winterfell, she would have missed the turn off at the River Road. The only way it makes sense is if she was traveling from the south (from the Crownlands) or had purposely diverted her travel party for a good reason. I’m just curious. Perhaps it’s just because the locations and distances aren’t finalised or ironed out yet but it is fun to speculate where Lyanna was and where she went after Rhaegar, Arthur and Oswell fell upon her.

I also wonder how big her party was and if any of them were killed or did Lyanna just... run to Rhaegar, jump up on his horse and hightail it out of there before anyone knew what the hell happened? People would insist she was abducted whether he killed her entourage in order to take her or she leapt into his arms crying, “Take me, Prince Rhaegar!” or anything in between.

Pet theory: Brandon was supposed to be escorting/watching Lyanna, but he took off for an assignation and left her with the Whents. Lyanna absconded and fell in with Rhaegar.

[LynnS]

@Curled FingerGetting back to the OP and what may have been going on at the Tournament below the surface; we have this assessment from Selmy:
 

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - The Kingbreaker

"Best not." Ser Barristan stepped out alone onto the terrace gardens. I am not made for this, he reflected as he looked out over the sprawling city. The pyramids were waking, one by one, lanterns and torches flickering to life as shadows gathered in the streets below. Plots, ploys, whispers, lies, secrets within secrets, and somehow I have become part of them.

Perhaps by now he should have grown used to such things. The Red Keep had its secrets too. Even Rhaegar. The Prince of Dragonstone had never trusted him as he had trusted Arthur Dayne. Harrenhal was proof of that. The year of the false spring.

The memory was still bitter. Old Lord Whent had announced the tourney shortly after a visit from his brother, Ser Oswell Whent of the Kingsguard. With Varys whispering in his ear, King Aerys became convinced that his son was conspiring to depose him, that Whent's tourney was but a ploy to give Rhaegar a pretext for meeting with as many great lords as could be brought together. Aerys had not set foot outside the Red Keep since Duskendale, yet suddenly he announced that he would accompany Prince Rhaegar to Harrenhal, and everything had gone awry from there.

It does seem that Selmy is aware that there are plots, ploys etc int the works at Harrenhal.  Varys falls into the category of perfumed seneschal and there is this interesting bit from him as well:

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - The Queensguard

He did not wish to be conspicuous, so when he was finished with his supper he changed out of his court clothes, trading the white cloak of the Queensguard for a hooded brown traveler's cloak such as any common man might wear. He kept his sword and dagger.

This could still be some trap. He had little trust in Hizdahr and less in Reznak mo Reznak. The perfumed seneschal could well be part of this, trying to lure him into a secret meeting so he could sweep up him and Skahaz both and charge them with conspiring against the king. If the Shavepate speaks treason, he will leave me no choice but to arrest him. Hizdahr is my queen's consort, however little I may like it. My duty is to him, not Skahaz.

Selmy has seen this ploy of luring someone to a secret meeting as a trap before.  I'm reminded that Brandon took off for some reason after receiving a message from someone.  Whatever he was supposed to do or meet didn't goes as planned and he ends up at KL calling out Rhaeger where he is the arrested for treason. 

[Faera]

3 hours ago, Ser Leftwich said:

Pet theory: Brandon was supposed to be escorting/watching Lyanna, but he took off for an assignation and left her with the Whents. Lyanna absconded and fell in with Rhaegar.

1

Based on what Barb said about him, it really wouldn't surprise me if Brandon snuck off for tryst with some Riverland noble maiden a few weeks before his wedding while his little sister made a rendezvous of her own.

3 hours ago, Megorova said:

Could be that she was going to Riverrun from King's Landing. And there's an explanation what she was doing at KL

 

That certainly crossed my mind (and would be very interesting if true), as it would explain why she was hadn't got on the River Road yet -- she never made it.

The only trouble is I can't think of a reason she would be coming from King's Landing. Surely if Lyanna had some duties at court, like a lady-in-waiting or even just visiting a friend, we'd have heard about it by now. I think "Queen of Love and Beauty" is just an empty title that only lasts as long as the last feast day of the tournament.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

36 minutes ago, Faera said:

The only trouble is I can't think of a reason she would be coming from King's Landing. Surely if Lyanna had some duties at court, like a lady-in-waiting or even just visiting a friend, we'd have heard about it by now. 

There's something I've been wondering about a while and one of the reasons I think all these people weren't so isolated from each other as we think they might have been. This is part of a larger conversation with Brienne where Jaime wonders why no one calls Robert an oathbreaker because he tore the realm apart.

Quote

"Robert did all he did for love."
"Robert did all he did for pride, a cunt, and a pretty face." (Jaime V, ASOS 37)

Jaime could have glimpsed Lyanna at Harrenhal for sure, but with the excitement of him being sworn in as a White Sword and being sent away right after, I wonder if he noticed anything that was going on around him and if he saw her under different circumstances.

Quote

I think "Queen of Love and Beauty" is just an empty title that only lasts as long as the last feast day of the tournament.

Agreed. And it seems to be mainly fodder for gossip if anything. I can't begin to imagine everything that the people said after Rhaegar crowned Lyanna. 

It's funny though how we are given the story of Prince Aemon entering the tourney as a mystery knight and win to crown Naerys and spare her from being further humiliated by Aegon IV, how similar both stories are. I do think there's a very relevant parallel going on here.

[Megorova]

40 minutes ago, Faera said:

The only trouble is I can't think of a reason she would be coming from King's Landing. Surely if Lyanna had some duties at court, like a lady-in-waiting or even just visiting a friend, we'd have heard about it by now.

Not necessary. Because if Lyanna had duties at court, who can tell about it now? That sort of things is not significant enought to be added as part of 7K's history by maesters. Also maybe even if there was any mentioning anywhere about Lyanna being part of Targaryen's court, most likely Robert would have deleted all that information. And something like that is not significant enough, to be mentioned by Ned. And there's not that many people still alive who knew Lyanna.

Also I meant that if she was part of Targaryen court, even for some time, then she was living in KL, in Red Keep. And she was there most of the time, unless she was attending some events, such as her brothers wedding. So she departed from KL, to go to Riverrun. And probably after that, it was decided by her family, that she will go back home to Winterfell, and will stay there, until her wedding with Robert. So she was leaving KL permanently, and thus Rhaegar went after her, and convinced her to elope with him. Maybe while they were attending various events as formal couple, he was waiting until birth of his second child, and he was reluctant leaving Elia. But when the baby was already born, and Lyanna went to Riverrun, she left a message for Rhaegar, that she won't return, and that after wedding of Ned, she will stay away from KL, and will get married with Robert. And that's when Rhaegar realised that he will lose her forever, and to prevent that from happening, he went after her. Maybe before that, he even anulled his marriage with Elia, or divorced with her. Thus when he went after Lyanna, he told her that they can marry now, so she went with him.

14 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

Jaime could have glimpsed Lyanna at Harrenhal for sure, but with the excitement of him being sworn in as a White Sword and being sent away right after, I wonder if he noticed anything that was going on around him and if he saw her under different circumstances.

If after Harrenhal and until Ned's planned wedding in Riverrun, Lyanna was part of royal court, and was living at Red Keep, then Jaime knew her and saw her many times.

And could be that he never in books mentioned anything about her, because Lyanna was hated by Cersei. So could be that Jaime did said something about Lyanna, aside from that one comment, though he never said her name, so we didn't realised that he was talking about Lyanna.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

19 minutes ago, Megorova said:

And could be that he never in books mentioned anything about her, because Lyanna was hated by Cersei. So could be that Jaime did said something about Lyanna, aside from that one comment, though he never said her name, so we didn't realised that he was talking about Lyanna.

The conversation between Jaime and Brienne happens at Harrenhal when he and Brienne are in the tubs. I always assumed the pretty face he was talking about was Lyanna. The order Jaime gives in his line makes me think that.

Honestly, I wouldn't be all that surprised if Jaime was part of Rhaegar's party along with Oswell and Arthur. Maybe it's Jaime's insistence with Rhaegar that he take him to the Trident with him. The way he speaks to him seems to indicate that Jaime was comfortable enough with Rhaegar to be honest like that.

I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

[kissdbyfire]

On 07/01/2018 at 0:40 AM, Curled Finger said:

 Just occurred to me it's Saturday night and I've not seen hide nor hair of Leech or @kissdbyfire--I do hope they aren't  getting Bloodraven drunk again. 

All work and no play... and now I have hundreds of posts to read until I'm all caught up.

And a topic on one of my favourite men of mystery, the one and only Howland Reed! You are on fire, my friend!

 

 

 

[Curled Finger]

11 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Always struck me as a little odd, but nothing i can put my thumb to just yet. Yet Robert being chummy with Rhaegar's friend the whole time, while never mentioned to be with Eddard at any point despite having grown up together. Did he not introduce Eddard to the other higher ups of the south that he knew? For being so close to Lonmouth, i find it weird that no mention of Rhaegar and Robert are ever mentioned any where in the text other than this night, the day the rose was gave, and the war. Yet, here Robert is like a good young knight, eager to impress his king and find the mysterious Laughing Knight (Laughing Storm thoughts come to mind, and this also make me think of Euron GreyJoy. The Laughing evil Storm.)

Again though, did Robert never go to the Stark tent, Starks never to his tent? Were the tents even close? The events that led to Robert taking the Throne as opposed to Jon Arryn, or Eddard Stark who's family was at the heart of the conflict (Brandon, Lyanna, Rickard, himself) as compared to Roberts ties to the war and it's beginning. Robert, who shares not a single interaction that we are told of, before the war. Is Robert even seated near the Starks when the Blue Rose was given? 

Also, again. The war started over Eddard's family. How did this become about Robert then? Cause he happened to be at the Eyrie with Eddard? If they're brothers and friends, im not seeing it. I know of not a single fond memory between the two that i can recall either. I can recall them fighting and bickering with each other both during the rebellion and during the current narrative. 

Did it start about Eddard and just become about Robert while Eddard was stuck rallying forces? I mean, i get that Lyanna was betrothed to Robert, but there just seems to be something missing. I mean, he's engaged to the Starks sister. Yet doesn't even hang out with them during the biggest Tourney in recent history. In fact, he seems to be trying to impress the Targaryens and separate him self from Eddard. I feel like there is a misdirect that im still missing lol

As far as mister Howland Reed? I've talked about him before including the whole Ashara Dayne thing. 
Firstly Howland's timing is past suspicious, especially praying to them the night before the Laughing Tree showed up. Then it's Howland taking note of Ashara that causes Eddard to take notice. Brandon does take notice too, but all we're told is that he asked her if shed dance with Eddard. This sounds like the awesome person Robert should have been being to Eddard, but it's not, its his true brother, Brandon. Either way, both Starks have noticed her now though setting up peoples theories to do with them (I dont believe either. Except that Eddard did love her and possibly spent the night talking to her and comforting her, sharing a kiss that night). Either way, there story ends with the Laughing Tree and goes no further.

So why even mention the Maid with Purple eyes to begin with? I assume they're telling this story to Bran as it's tied to him. The Knight being Lyanna would make sense as to why they're telling him. The fact that their father may have loved Ashara is also another good reason. Specially if Howland knew something else about the war and his marriage to Cat. Though they hold back information upon learning that Bran's father never shared these stories. So there is plenty of reason to pour over these accounts and try to look at them in a new light. Little attention is given to Brandon in the story too, so take that how ever you want. But what is not told can be equal to what is being said too. Half truths seem to be Martins style.

Alot of attention how ever is given to who Ashara Dayne dance with though. Bullys, Meet Starks, Attend Dinner Dance where Ashara pops up. Bullys and Mystery Knight. End story. It wasn't enough just to say Howland watched a girl dance, so Eddard danced with her? Which in it self is weird too. The story goes from Howland staring at her, to Eddard getting to dance with her, to people thinking she hooked up with Brandon or Eddard. The jump to Brandon in all of that i have neverrrr understood. No matter how many times i've listed to people try to explain why and how Brandon would low ball his brother has never made sense to me based on other accounts of him. Brandon sounds nothing like Robert Baratheon, at all. Brandon actually sounds like he was a good honorable guy. Not a drunk wenching war hungry guy. He even showed control and spared Peter after trying to give Peter the chance to stand down. Till finally having to lay a heavy blow on him to just end it.  I can see Good Queen Alysanne being more of a shady character than Brandon Stark the Wild Wolf. Who has really no wild stories. 

Further, Brandon Stark is NOT Oberyn Martel. Who we do hear about sleeping with who ever he wants (married women?) and then challenging the husbands to a fight (something more in line with Robert too). Oberyn and Robert are wild. Brandon is not.

Lyanna even thinks of Robert as a whore. If she was raised with an older brother say, like Oberyn, she would be more inclined to view love as more of a primal desire mixed up more with her sexuality. Yet she doesn't, she tells Ned quite the opposite about love. She's not Sansa. What makes that girls heart drum is not the same i would wager and is closer to Arya with out the scars. Though how Arya would have been with out the trauma she has suffered is up to debate, but i imagine she'd still have fallen in love. Who would Arya fall for on any level? 

The Dance. - Every one Ashara Dances with is tied to the war on some important level with Barristan being the least tied. As no one trusted him with anything other than doing his basic job. Jon Darry is tied to Willam Darry who raises Viserys and Daenerys supposedly. Whent, Hightower and her brother were all at the Tower of Joy. Martel was rumored to have a paramour and was from the south and should know Ashara Dayne already. Also he is tied to Oberyn, Elia, and the rest. Who's family was used against him during the war. 

Now- Had Rhaegars plan's gone the way he planned. What were they? Simply unite the realm in over throwing his father? Whom he protected during the war? That makes no sense. Why not just kill him, and take the throne. What ever Rhaegar was hoping to accomplish, wasn't by just over throwing his father. Not by force i dont think. 

Further, i still think Rhaegar had more planned. 

Who would Rheagar have crowned queen and love and beauty had he never met Lyanna Stark due to Howland Reeds meddling?

Lyanna would have never defended Howland. Despite having seen Rheagar play music and weep. What could Lyanna have done that would have caught Rhaegar's eye other wise? If not for Howland Reed? Robert never presented his new bride to his Royal cousins apparently.

Life made me go to work today.   It would be so much easier if we just didn't have bills.   Thanks for joining the conversation, Sandman.  If you don't mind, I have a comment or 2...

It is odd we don't see Robert with his best friend ever in the world Ned.  Laughing Evil Storm!

Seating is an interesting concept here.   There is a somewhat famous artist's rendering that depicts the crowning of Lyanna.   Rhaegar is handing the crown to her with his lance.   I'm sure you've seen it.   In this picture Robert is there, but I can't remember the order each character appeared in.   If I'm able to dig it up I will report back with a link.  There was chatter about this art work when it was initially published and I keep thinking it was in the World Book.   I will look.

As I understand the war rally Robert's grandmother was a Targ.   His blood made him most worthy to usurp the "more" Targs.   I don't really understand.   However, as is evidenced by Robert's supporters during the rebellion, he had every right to be indignant over the "kidnapping" of his "beloved".  I think more like you here in wondering why he didn't storm the gates at Kings Landing and demand his "beloved" before her brother got there.   Or her father after that.   I'm with you, something ain't right here with our fearless king who would be.   

I'm laughing now, Sandman.   I'm thinking right along the same lines as you with the whole Ned/Ashara thing.  I don't see some lusty affair.   Not with Ned--he's not the guy drinking other guys under the table.  You have me riled up now.   Hell yes Brandon acted like a brother, much more so than Robert.   We are beginning to discuss the possibility that our little Crannogman may have had some foresight of events as a result of his study with the Green Men.   That's not stranger than Faceless Men even a little bit.   However, even the little Crannogman calls Brandon the "wild wolf" and that lends itself to something?  Alley cat I'm not so sure about, but certainly more daring than his quiet wolf brother.   

Arya in love?  What a new concept...

I can't assume Selmy was the "White Sword" Ashara danced with.   There are good reasons for this beauty to have danced with anyone except Jamie.  You make a good point about everyone being tied to the war to come.  Your insights and reason regarding the alleged conspiracy to overthrow Aerys are well received and I have to agree completely.   So what other conspiracy could there have been, supposing Rhaegar had a  plan at all?   The little Crannogman meddling is a new one, too.  Are you implying that Howland Reed is the one who put all the things that happened at Harrenhal in effect?   Also new.

That was great Sandman.   I really appreciate your ideas and thoughts here.   

 

[Curled Finger]

13 hours ago, Lady Dacey said:

I think our black brother is a young Yoren. He was a recruiter for thirty years... It was his duty to get people from around the realm to go to the Wall. We only see him geting "the pick of the dungeons", but we can see that he would also try and convince knights and men at arms to join, like Jon wants Daeron to do. 

Yoren tells Arya he's been taking man to the Wall through the kings road for 30 years 

So he would have been a young recruiter by the year of the false spring. 

Welcome Lady, it's good to have you here.   You and I are not strangers.   I think you know I like to be open minded while maintaining a level head about things.  I wonder if you had a chance to read all of Edgar's posts?   Seems to me this is an ideal that would appeal to you.   When he first popped in I didn't even understand what he was saying.   This Mance may have been the black brother thing really appeals to me.   That said, I expected something fanciful from Edgar and instead received a lovely explanation of a quest to dig deeper into the text and really understand a character.   It moved me.  Nonetheless, Yoren is said to have been recruiting brothers across the realm for a very log time and he is the likely suspect.   

[Curled Finger]

@Seams-I know this thread moved very quickly, but I seem to have completely missed your lovely alternate explanation for the events at Harrenhal.  Due to your fine English skill and regional usage, I assumed you were American.  (Contrary to popular belief , there are some very well written Americans!)  Your post is time stamped 6 something PM yesterday and I know I was still semi conscious and typing at the time.   Perhaps you are in some fabulously exotic place like Mexico or Australia or Canada making you many time zones away from Southern California, where I am.  I've read a lot of your words, you know that's true.  The post (from our friend of the angry ovary @Lady Dacey) is brilliant.   It did occur to me when writing this topic that perhaps our LCM was obfuscating identities in not attaching names, but you gave succinct voice to the thought.  It really causes one to stop and reexamine the story.  Well done, where ever you are, Lady!  

[Curled Finger]

12 hours ago, LynnS said:

Mance tells Jon that he was an escort to the old lord commander; a party of a dozen when the Watch was stronger in number.  Mormont sends two NW with Yoren to escort Tyrion to Winterfell.  So it's not out of the question that Yoren or other men of the watch were sent recruiting together, especially if they were bards. Jon at least sees the sense in it.  Howland only mentions the man of the Watch giving a speech. It doesn't mean he was the only one there.   We're also not told the numbers representing each house in attendance.  Mention is only made of their prominent members or their squires. 

To go a step further; if Mance was the KotLT, what could Rhaegar do about it if he came to know the identity of the KotLT?  The men of the Watch seek no glory.  But given all the Bael symbolism around Mance; it would make some sense if Rhaegar was asked to give the crown of winter roses to Lyanna in payment.     

Understanding Edgar's view much better now than originally, coupled with your support, has really opened my mind to possibility here.   Not just Mance being the black brother, but perhaps to have taken more roles on than I originally credited to him.  Mance is a great character.   Her certainly belongs at Harrenhal if he wasn't there!