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Harrenhall Through A Little Crannogman’s Eyes


Curled Finger

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The story of the Knight of the Laughing Tree is a staple mystery in the ASOIAF universe.    Meera Reed tells of an unnamed little Crannogman who traveled to The Gods Eye and stayed on the Isle of Faces throughout the winter.   That could be years on Westeros.   Once spring arrives the man opts to leave the Isle and sees all manner of color and lights at Harrenhall.  It’s clear this man is not familiar with the region he’s visiting but he is remarkably familiar with sigils and some key figures.  We hear a short list of stars at this tournament given to defend the daughter of Whent’s title of Queen of Love and Beauty.   It is a grand affair and our traveler is drawn to the excitement. 

Though this story we are told of the king and dragon prince, the White Swords and their new brother, the Storm Lord and Rose Lord.   Curiously, the Crannogman notes that the great lion of the Rock is not in attendance, but many of his knights and bannermen are there.   He notes the daughter of the castle, her 4 brothers and her uncle, a famous White Sword who are her champions in the tournament.  He mentions Elia Martell and her dozen ladies in waiting.   He notes all 4 of his wolf companions, the she wolf, wild wolf, quiet wolf and pup.   He mentions their bannermen, Barrowdown men, moose, bears and mermen.  He tells about the Dragon Prince singing a song so sad it makes the fierce she wolf sniffle and how she turns a cup of wine over her pup brother’s head when he laughs at her.   A black brother appeals to the knights to join his order.  The Storm King and Knight of Skulls and Kisses have a wine cup war.  Then we get a remarkable accounting of the men a maid with laughing purple eyes dances with: a White Sword, a Red Snake, the Lord of Griffins and finally the Quiet Wolf after the Wild Wolf speaks with her. 

We can figure out who the people the Crannogman notes are.  Aerys, Rhaegar, the Kings Guard, Jamie, Robert Baratheon and Mace Tyrell.   He knows Tywin has had a disagreement with the king and that is his reason for not attending.  Odd that bannermen and knights show up despite the great lion’s absence. We know at least 1 of  Elia's ladies, Ashara Dayne.  We know who the wolves are as well as their bannermen.  Richard Lonmouth and Robert Baratheon are drinking each other under the table.  Then we get the most peculiar accounting of Ashara Dayne’s dancing partners.  A White Sword could have been any of the Kings Guard except Jamie.  The Red Snake is Oberyn Martell, the Lord of Griffins is Jon Connington and then wolves again.   Of the hundreds of people present I wonder why these specific people stood out to the Crannogman to the extent he would memorize them and recount each of them to his children years later. 

I always considered the story to hold more than 1 clue to the soon to unfold events.  Still it’s just odd he homes in on 1 lady and her dance partners of all the people dancing.  She was a legendary beauty, even Barristan attests to that.   It is possible the Crannogman was simply taken with the maiden with the laughing purple eyes?  It was rumored that the Tourney was funded by Rhaegar and was intended to address the problems with the realm with the leaders of the kingdoms.   The North, Riverlands, Westerlands, Dorne, Stormlands and Reach are all represented.   These are presumably the future movers and shakers Rhaegar hopes to enlist to his cause.  Is there some clue in the list of people mentioned or is it just Ashara’s dancing partners?  It is peculiar that Robert B is mentioned twice, but doesn’t dance with Ashara (and isn’t mentioned with Lyanna).   He is noted with the Lord of Roses and a hard drinking Knight.   Bizarre.  I think it’s possible if not probable that there was a conspiracy at play that was unable to find its light due to Aerys’ attendance.   Did Ashara get some information from her White Sword that she then passed to Oberyn and some answer he gave was then given to Jon Connington?

It is unlikely that Barristan Selmy would have participated in an open rebellion against his king.  He is nothing if not loyal.   Whent?  Surely he was aware of the premise at play.   Arthur Dayne, Lewyn Martell, Jon Connington, Richard Lonmouth ditto.  Could Tywin have been aware of some dissention between Aerys and Rhaegar and sent his spies to hear Rhaegar’s plan?   Could Rickard Stark have sent all his children to hear Rhaegar out?   We see Howland Reed sent his children to act in his stead with Bran at Winterfell—maybe that’s how the North works?  Reclusive Dorne has a large presence at this event—why? Is it a case of star struck/love struck awed northman or a conspiracy?  Is there something to the order these people are mentioned?  Is there more than 1 conspiracy in play?  Let’s figure it out. 

 

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2 minutes ago, Ser Leftwich said:

Why couldn't the White Sword that Ashara danced with be Jaime? The two most logical options are Arthur and Lewyn, because of the Dornish connection, but what precludes Jaime from being an option.

He was sent away.   One of the other Kings Guard volunteered to go to Kings Landing in Jamie's place so he could participate in the tournament.   Aerys wasn't having it and sent Jamie on his way.   The point I'm trying to make is the people who were there and any relationship they might have had to each other.  Jamie was just a kid, 15 or 16, not particularly experienced.  I expect that White Sword was Arthur Dayne or Lewyn because they were close to Rhaegar.  Of course, he could have been any of the Kings Guard except Jamie.   Would you like me to dig up the quote? 

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"Harrenhal was where they gave me the white cloak," he whispered back. "Whent's great tourney. He wanted to show us all his big castle and his fine sons. I wanted to show them too. I was only fifteen, but no one could have beaten me that day. Aerys never let me joust." He laughed again. "He sent me away. But now I'm coming back." 

 A bitter smile touched Jaime's lips as they crossed that torn ground. Someone had dug a privy trench in the very spot where he'd once knelt before the king to say his vows. I never dreamed how quick the sweet would turn to sour. Aerys would not even let me savor that one night. He honored me, and then he spat on me.   ASOS Jamie IV

I should have just entered the quotes in the 1st place, sorry @Ser Leftwich

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7 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Of the hundreds of people present I wonder why these specific people stood out to the Crannogman to the extent he would memorize them and recount each of them to his children years later. 

Think about it - if you went to a party and saw there Nelson Mandela, Mother Theresa and Vlad Putin, you'd notice them amongst everyone else. These were the most prominent and famous people in the realm.

 

7 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

I think it’s possible if not probable that there was a conspiracy at play that was unable to find its light due to Aerys’ attendance.

I always read this as Rhaegar being disillusioned with Aerys, and needing to talk to other great Lords. Aerys certainly suspected a conspiracy, which is why he went to Harrenhal himself, after not leaving the Red Keep for years on end previously.

I think the whole appeal of a tourney, for gathering people together, is that everyone goes who wants to - regardless of their liege lords. This is a world without television, people get bored, and glom on to any excitement provided. Throw in some really rich prize purses too and everyone and his dog will be there, with no need to explain themselves. Absence is harder to account for than presence, really. That Tywin is NOT there speaks far more than all his bannermen being there. As does Jaime being sent away...

 

7 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Reclusive Dorne has a large presence at this event—why?

Because the queen is a Dornish princess, what a chance for a family get-together! Everyone has a large presence - it is the most spectacular tourney for a generation. It also turned out to be one of those days that created a pivot for the entire future of Westeros.

if Rhaegar truly believed he was TPTWP, then Aerys had to go - either by conspiracy, or perhaps by provoking a rebellion Rhaegar could not be seen to support, but notice how hard it was for Aerys to get Rhaegar to fight - the prince had lit the blue touch paper then retired to Dorne. Aerys had to summon him back to KL. Ring-a-ring of winter roses, we all fall down.

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1 hour ago, Rufus Snow said:

These were the most prominent and famous people in the realm.

Hmmm... this would almost be true except for the mention of Richard Lonmouth. His status is no where near the others mentioned.

I think George is giving us these names for a reason. I'm not sure what that reason is though...

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9 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

He is noted with the Lord of Roses and a hard drinking Knight.   Bizarre. 

 

9 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Reclusive Dorne has a large presence at this event—why?

 

7 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

I expect that White Sword was Arthur Dayne or Lewyn because they were close to Rhaegar

Curled Firngers, what an interesting premise for a thread! Amazing! I'm exiceted to be at another thread hosted by you. I never stoped to think about possible deeper meanings to this story, silly me. You gave me much to think about. I'll begin addressing those theee quotes above with some of my thoughts from the top of my mind.

It's very intersteing how the lord of the Stormlands, who we know will stir a rebellion on his own name and kill crowned prince, in this story appears with people who were very close to the prince himself. We know the Tyrells were Targaeryan loyalists, and Richard Lonmounth was Raeghar squire and close friend. So it's likely that by the time the tourney of Harenhall was held there was no animosity between Baratheon and Targaeryan yet, on the contrary. At the same time, Robert doesn't seem to be that involved in the conspiracy to overthrow Aerys... or am I imagining thing? 

We know surprisingly little about Lonmouth/Lemoncloak (if they are indeed one and the same). We know he wasn't at court after Robert became king. Why is that? So many people got royal pardons... did he hold a particular grudge against Robert? Maybe because they were initially on the same side? It does seem important that the author wants us to know they drank together that night... but why? 

Also, I don't find it weird the large presence of Dorne in the tourney. I've always assumed Dorne had become reclusive after the murder of Elia Martell. Is that not so? 

On the white sword, well, I have always assumed it was ser Barristan that had danced with Ashara. Only now I realize I had no evidence at all of that!  Because I already knew he had been in love with her when I first read the books (uh, I only began reading asoiaf after all 5 books had been released, and never cared much about spoilers), he came to mind when I first read Meera's tale. 

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2 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

Think about it - if you went to a party and saw there Nelson Mandela, Mother Theresa and Vlad Putin, you'd notice them amongst everyone else. These were the most prominent and famous people in the realm.

 

I always read this as Rhaegar being disillusioned with Aerys, and needing to talk to other great Lords. Aerys certainly suspected a conspiracy, which is why he went to Harrenhal himself, after not leaving the Red Keep for years on end previously.

I think the whole appeal of a tourney, for gathering people together, is that everyone goes who wants to - regardless of their liege lords. This is a world without television, people get bored, and glom on to any excitement provided. Throw in some really rich prize purses too and everyone and his dog will be there, with no need to explain themselves. Absence is harder to account for than presence, really. That Tywin is NOT there speaks far more than all his bannermen being there. As does Jaime being sent away...

 

Because the queen is a Dornish princess, what a chance for a family get-together! Everyone has a large presence - it is the most spectacular tourney for a generation. It also turned out to be one of those days that created a pivot for the entire future of Westeros.

if Rhaegar truly believed he was TPTWP, then Aerys had to go - either by conspiracy, or perhaps by provoking a rebellion Rhaegar could not be seen to support, but notice how hard it was for Aerys to get Rhaegar to fight - the prince had lit the blue touch paper then retired to Dorne. Aerys had to summon him back to KL. Ring-a-ring of winter roses, we all fall down.

Hi Rufus--a nice analysis, thank you.   The term that came to mind was  "rock stars" but your list is far more appropriate.  I'm focused on this first part of the story because it''s so rich with observation from such an isolated member of that society.   I suppose they study banners and words in the Neck and they may even have maesters.   It struck me as extremely odd.  Did you catch who wasn't among the (mentioned) party goers?  No Arryns, None of the fathers seem to be there.  No Tullys. Yes, I think it's a very big deal who isn't there or at the least noticed.  Good catch. 

I think there may have been more than one conspiracy at play here.  We know Rhaegar was concerned about the realm and its politics.  I don't recall Rhaegar ever speakingout directly against his father, only a mention here and there of "change".  Now I wonder what Rhagar could have actually done about his father, the bad king? 

Yes, Elia's presence would certainly encourage a Dornish presence.  That's not my concern--it is in the Crannogman mentioning so many of them including but not limited to a lady companion.  Was it as I always thought and the CM was taken with her or is something much more important happening during the dances?  

Any ideas on how Rhaegar could have deposed his own father?   

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1 hour ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Hmmm... this would almost be true except for the mention of Richard Lonmouth. His status is no where near the others mentioned.

I think George is giving us these names for a reason. I'm not sure what that reason is though...

This was posted last night right after I read some reply you made in another topic we were both participating in.   It's good to have you here as I always enjoy your posts.   

It's possible that mention of Rhaegar's squire with Robert Baratheon (who knows--perhaps his ability to match drinks is important?) is supposed to point us somewhere.  It's not uncommon for us to hear of a high ranking official and mention of aides in a news article.   I don't know if he's any more important than those 3 squires.   He's mentioned, so we have to look at him.   Perhaps it is an indication that the Knight of Skulls and Kisses was intended to solicit some alliance or gather some information from the man who would become king?  I thought it odd that we never see the Storm Lord with the She Wolf.   Lots of places as paring like that could go.   Let us know if you are inspired!  

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27 minutes ago, Lady Dacey said:

We know surprisingly little about Lonmouth/Lemoncloak (if they are indeed one and the same). We know he wasn't at court after Robert became king. Why is that? So many people got royal pardons... did he hold a particular grudge against Robert? Maybe because they were initially on the same side? It does seem important that the author wants us to know they drank together that night... but why? 

Hi LD! If the underlined is true then I think it would be safe to say that Lonmouth did not bear any ill will towards Robert. Lem is a King's (Robert) man.

Arya II, SoS

Quote

“Not that either. We’re nobody’s men. Whose men are you?”

Anguy the Archer said, “We’re king’s men.”

Arya frowned. “Which king?”

“King Robert,” said Lem, in his yellow cloak.

I agree with the bold, but I have no idea why. I struggle with the idea that Robert could have been conspiring with anyone. He doesn't seem like the conspiring type. He would rather hit someone over the head with a hammer. I could be wrong though. Maybe Lonmouth was trying to convince Bobby?

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26 minutes ago, Lady Dacey said:

 

 

Curled Firngers, what an interesting premise for a thread! Amazing! I'm exiceted to be at another thread hosted by you. I never stoped to think about possible deeper meanings to this story, silly me. You gave me much to think about. I'll begin addressing those theee quotes above with some of my thoughts from the top of my mind.

It's very intersteing how the lord of the Stormlands, who we know will stir a rebellion on his own name and kill crowned prince, in this story appears with people who were very close to the prince himself. We know the Tyrells were Targaeryan loyalists, and Richard Lonmounth was Raeghar squire and close friend. So it's likely that by the time the tourney of Harenhall was held there was no animosity between Baratheon and Targaeryan yet, on the contrary. At the same time, Robert doesn't seem to be that involved in the conspiracy to overthrow Aerys... or am I imagining thing? 

We know surprisingly little about Lonmouth/Lemoncloak (if they are indeed one and the same). We know he wasn't at court after Robert became king. Why is that? So many people got royal pardons... did he hold a particular grudge against Robert? Maybe because they were initially on the same side? It does seem important that the author wants us to know they drank together that night... but why? 

Also, I don't find it weird the large presence of Dorne in the tourney. I've always assumed Dorne had become reclusive after the murder of Elia Martell. Is that not so? 

On the white sword, well, I have always assumed it was ser Barristan that had danced with Ashara. Only now I realize I had no evidence at all of that!  Because I already knew he had been in love with her when I first read the books (uh, I only began reading asoiaf after all 5 books had been released, and never cared much about spoilers), he came to mind when I first read Meera's tale. 

Welcome, Lady and thank you for bringing your insights here.  This is sort of an exploration into old events leading to current events as we explored in our Brienne's Honor At Pennytree discussion.   I do love a web of conspiracy!  

You aren't imagining anything.   There is something to 2 mentions of Robert Baratheon among all these notables.   Seems to me he's merely listed with the Rose Lord, but our little CM dedicates a sentence to the Storm Lord's drinking with Rhaegar's squire.   Are we supposed to note the Storm Lord isn't with his betrothed or is there something to the drinking game?   Both I suspect.  Like Ashara's dancing partners, I think the Knight of Skulls and Kisses was "feeling" Robert Baratheon out--perhaps regarding his willingness to join a movement to depose Aerys, or perhaps about Lyanna or something entirely different.  That's why we're here.   Let's figure it out. 

Agreed on our mysterious Knight of Skulls and Kisses who does seem to keep his yellow cloak well after Robert's Rebellion.   Why stay in the Riverlands?   Robert was a lousy king, but he acted with grace upon being proclaimed king.   His entire admiration of Barristan Selmy to the extent he sent his own maester to care for his wounds on the Trident to the pardon show that he at least respected the people he fought.  Jamie was retained in the Kings Guard despite Ned urging him to send Jamie to the Wall.   Why wouldn't knights in opposing service also be pardoned by the new king?   

It is not so much that Dorne has a large presence at Harrenhal (yes, I do see I misspelled it--sorry!).   It is that the little Crannogman notices these people amid the many others.   It's like the 2 mentions of Robert Baratheon.    I think the Dornish were involved in Rhaegar's conspiracy and probably very important to its success or planning.   It's possible they were the force sent to gather information on the other people.  

Selmy was certainly in love with Ashara Dayne, but why?  This White Sword without description is purposefully written to make us question his identity.   I think it's probable that Ashara was passing along as well as obtaining information to and from her partners.  That White Sword may have been the one to instruct her who to mingle with or charm.   I'm thinking of her as something of a Mata Hari at this point.   We may be able to piece together Baristan The Bold's later cryptic statements about Ashara if we can all put on our decoder rings.   I wouldn't discount anything at this point, Lady.   

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Do we know when the night Howland describes is?  Meaning was it after the appearance of TKOTLT?

If so, then perhaps Lonmouth was sent to distract Robert so Rhaegar could confront Lyanna.  The other possibility is the obvious, Robert was always a drunk and lousy husband/betrothed.

As for Barristan, he was not involved in Rhaegars conspiracy, he has an inner thought in one of his chapters in Dance that lets us know that.  He thinks that Rhaegar never trusted him as he did Dayne, then says Harrenhall was the proof of that.

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9 hours ago, Ser Leftwich said:

I answered my own question.... will be back with more!

(I may have been drinking, which has impacted my total recall of every ASOIAF fact.)

Perhaps you are the Knight of Skulls and Kisses!   It's not a test, Ser, no one has a more muddled memory than me.   Rest assured we will both be straightened out.   I look forward to your thoughts here.  

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24 minutes ago, Lady Dacey said:

At the same time, Robert doesn't seem to be that involved in the conspiracy to overthrow Aerys... or am I imagining thing? 

My personal opinion on this is that the alliances that were forming had absolutely nothing to do with overthrowing the Targaryen regime. If anything, I find that Hoster Tully's reasons for wanting to marry Catelyn to Brandon had more to do with the politics of the riverlands than that of the Seven Kingdoms. 

10 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

He mentions their bannermen, Barrowdown men, moose, bears and mermen.

When I go through the list of people that are present, I do wonder if Jorah Mormont was there well. So far, we haven't gotten anything from him with regard to the tourney, but I imagine it will not be long before that happens if he was present.

10 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

It is peculiar that Robert B is mentioned twice, but doesn’t dance with Ashara (and isn’t mentioned with Lyanna).

Is it peculiar though? Harrenhal is like a slice of Swiss cheese. Meera gives us the bullet points. She never says who the KotLT is even though it seems she knows the identity. And Jojen is kind of weirded out that Ned never told this story to his children.

Howland seems to notice Robert for his vices, rather than his some good quality. Robert is getting drunk with Richard Lonmouth and Robert wants to unmask the mystery knight who avenged Howland's honor. Robert essentially helps Aerys's paranoia with his boasts of unmasking the mystery knight. 

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1 minute ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

Do we know when the night Howland describes is?  Meaning was it after the appearance of TKOTLT?

If so, then perhaps Lonmouth was sent to distract Robert so Rhaegar could confront Lyanna.  The other possibility is the obvious, Robert was always a drunk and lousy husband/betrothed.

As for Barristan, he was not involved in Rhaegars conspiracy, he has an inner thought in one of his chapters in Dance that lets us know that.  He thinks that Rhaegar never trusted him as he did Dayne, then says Harrenhall was the proof of that.

I almost called out to you and a select others to join in here to tether me to reality.   We've been chatting for a long time and you know I get excited with ideas.   I appreciate your pragmatism and excellent recall, Arya.   That will be crucial here in determining what our little Crannogman was seeing.   

Yes! This is the night before the tournament begins.  The story in its entirety seems to follow a definite chronology.   That's why these 1st impressions are so curious to me.   I see no reason why setting Robert up with a drinking game prior to the tournament would be any different than afterward?   It was a set up.   To be a distraction hadn't occurred to me.   Let's add that to the list of possibilities.   

You are absolutely right about Selmy and that call back to his quotes brings it home with a bow on top.   I ask you to take that focus and move it to Barristan's feelings about Ashara and guilt over not winning the tourney.   Can't wait to see what you come up with.   Thanks for joining so early in the discussion, Arya.  You are a valuable resource in these complicated unravelings. 

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6 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

Also forgot to mention, Hoster didn't attend because Jaime being appointed to the KG was a slap in his face too, Jaime was going to be betrothed to Lysa.

I thought there was something going on that precluded the Tullys from joining beyond the broken marriage compact?   Lysa was sick maybe?   Even if I'm wrong to keep his daughters, particularly Lysa, from attending was very strange.   Had Hoster already begun to plot to marry her to Jon Arryn at this point?   

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1 minute ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

Also forgot to mention, Hoster didn't attend because Jaime being appointed to the KG was a slap in his face too, Jaime was going to be betrothed to Lysa.

I have doubts that he may not have been there.

In Ned's recollections of the tourney, he mentions the contingent from the Vale, Jon Arryn, Bronze Yohn and Eon Hunter. But Meera doesn't mention anyone from the Vale at all. So if we don't have Ned's Harrenhal memory, we would never have known Jon Arryn was there.

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