Curled Finger

Harrenhall Through A Little Crannogman’s Eyes

418 posts in this topic

42 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

I've given up trying to figure out the distances, personally. It's a headache. But what I know is that 50 leagues away from Harrenhal is not the God's Eye.

As far as the LCM goes, I think he really just stumbled upon the tourney. It's fortuitous, really, and I know Meera seems to imply that it was his choice to leave then, but the whole thing is so well timed with the tourney, that I have to wonder if it was entirely his decision to leave then.

You may have the timeline too, if you desire.   I think the distance we discussed earlier was 10 leagues and that would be the Isle of Faces.  Once you know where the middle is it's fairly easy to get a reasonable estimate of distance and then travel time.   The timeline has a lot of that built into it.  (And I worked in maps for a very long time!) 

I agree that it's likely he did stumble upon Harrenhal.   You can feel his excitement at the pageantry in Meera's retelling of the story.  However the timing of his leaving the Isle of Faces is so fortuitous as to be bogus.   I'm not sure what the Green Men do, but if weirwoods are there an astute person could probably get a glimpse of the future.  I am thinking he may have even been sent to Harrenhal by the Green Men, without being aware.  (I'm sorry, just reread your closing statement to be sure I didn't miss anything and realize you were thinking the same thing I was.   So much for speed reading!)  Just an idea.  

Let me know if you want the time line and I will try to post it in this topic.  kissdby fire gave it to me very recently and I'm like a kid at Christmas with it. 

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38 minutes ago, Faera said:

That's what always bugged me -- why was she there in the first place? If she was not 50 leagues from Harrenhal when Rhaegar fell upon her, where was she coming from? If she was coming from Winterfell, shouldn't she have been on the River Road or still on the Kingsroad on her way to Riverrun? (I'm guessing she was going to the wedding...) Instead, she ended up south-east. I'm guessing she had an entourage who she would have needed to come up with an excuse for why they were there to even if she'd agreed to meet Rhaegar ahead of time.

I hope so. While the idea that Howland is some special agent of the Green Men sent to carry out a task is compelling, there is something really natural about the idea that he just... wandered in. He might have heard something was going on and just decided to have a look. There seems to be something wistful about young Howland, (almost like a Disney princess song, dreaming of adventure in the great, wide world!), that I could believe curiosity got the better of him.

 

53 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

I've given up trying to figure out the distances, personally. It's a headache. But what I know is that 50 leagues away from Harrenhal is not the God's Eye.

As far as the LCM goes, I think he really just stumbled upon the tourney. It's fortuitous, really, and I know Meera seems to imply that it was his choice to leave then, but the whole thing is so well timed with the tourney, that I have to wonder if it was entirely his decision to leave then.

Forgive me!  I was obviously not having the same conversation as your were.   Someone upthread mentioned 10 leagues from Harrenhal and that's where I got Isle of Faces from.  If either of you can throw a couple of quotes at me I would be happy to try to figure out where Lyanna was when she disappeared? 

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2 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

We have a lot of moving pieces here and this guy has a lot of titles. Richard Lonmouth is Rhaegar's squire.   Jon Con was just a friend.  He's mentioned so often it's easy to mix him in with Rhaegar's "men".  

Arianne's chapter from Winds:

Spoiler

"Connington was Lord of Griffin's Roost when Griffin's Roost was still a lordship worth the having. Prince Rhaegar's squire, or one of them. Later Prince Rhaegar's friend and companion. The Mad King named him Hand during Robert's Rebellion, but he was defeated at Stoney Sept in the Battle of the Bells, and Robert slipped away. King Aerys was wroth, and sent Connington into exile. There he died."

One knight can have several squires. So Jon was one of them, and Richard was the other.

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

I'm inclined to think that Aegon really is Rhaegar's son.  I can't fathom that Rhaegar wouldn't have taken steps to get his all important PwiP to safety and in the keeping of people he trusts. 

Are you suggesting that Rhaegar trusted to Varys? Same Varys, that was constantly telling to Mad King, that Rhaegar wants to overthrow him?

If that's not what you meant, and trusted people were someone else, then how come the baby ended with Varys? So whatever Varys did was absolutely unconnected to Rhaegar's plans. It wasn't Rhaegar's idea to hide his son thru that method.

I have a theory that maybe Rhaegar did nothing to assure safety of those children, because shortly prior going after Lyanna, he found out that those children are not his. And that their real father was Oberyn Martell.

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

Aegon says he dies his hair blue to honor his mother; but Tyrion recognizes that the blue dye make his eyes seem more blue than purple. They are indigo blue, a blue so dark they look purple in a certain light.  Rhaegar also has indigo eyes.

So what? If fAegon is a Blackfyre, then he's partially a Targaryen, so he can be not Rhaegar's son, but he still can have same eye color as Rhaegar. Because as I said, he was chosen to play a role of fAegon, because of his looks, as one of reasons. Varys could have taken any Valyrian looking child from Lys, but he prefered to take son of Jeyne Swann, because he had Blackfyre/Targaryen blood thru his father Barristan.

Though it's just a theory. I'm not saying that it's a fact, I'm just saying that it's a possibility.

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Posted (edited)

58 minutes ago, Faera said:

That's what always bugged me -- why was she there in the first place? If she was not 50 leagues from Harrenhal when Rhaegar fell upon her, where was she coming from? If she was coming from Winterfell, shouldn't she have been on the River Road or still on the Kingsroad on her way to Riverrun? (I'm guessing she was going to the wedding...) Instead, she ended up south-east. I'm guessing she had an entourage who she would have needed to come up with an excuse for why they were there to even if she'd agreed to meet Rhaegar ahead of time.

I hope so. While the idea that Howland is some special agent of the Green Men sent to carry out a task is compelling, there is something really natural about the idea that he just... wandered in. He might have heard something was going on and just decided to have a look. There seems to be something wistful about young Howland, (almost like a Disney princess song, dreaming of adventure in the great, wide world!), that I could believe curiosity got the better of him.

Oh! Do you think he broke into song when he stepped off his little boat? 

I think there's something wistful about him because this is such a different world for him. From now on, when I think of Howland, I'll always see him as Giselle from Enchanted. 

All kidding aside, if Howland spent the winter at the Isle of Faces, that was about 2 years before the false spring began.

16 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

 

Forgive me!  I was obviously not having the same conversation as your were.   Someone upthread mentioned 10 leagues from Harrenhal and that's where I got Isle of Faces from.  If either of you can throw a couple of quotes at me I would be happy to try to figure out where Lyanna was when she disappeared? 

The World book mentions 10 leagues and GRRM says that 1 league is 3 miles. But 50 leagues from Harrenhal can literally be anywhere, north, east, south, west, and everywhere in between. Personally and since we had a whole lot of exposition in the one Jaime chapter in ADWD, about the Brackens and the Blackwoods, their feuds, Jonos Bracken wanting land from the Blackwoods he said was stolen, and the Blackfyre Rebellions backdrop and the possibility that Varys was at it as early as when he arrived in King's Landing, I'm inclined to think that Pennytree or those whereabouts could be the location of the so-called abduction. But that seems too far.

Edited by Widow's Watch

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Posted (edited)

18 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Forgive me!  I was obviously not having the same conversation as your were.   Someone upthread mentioned 10 leagues from Harrenhal and that's where I got Isle of Faces from.  If either of you can throw a couple of quotes at me I would be happy to try to figure out where Lyanna was when she disappeared? 

The only quote I can think of that states her location definitively was from TWoIaF.

Quote

As cold winds hammered the city, King Aerys II turned to his pyromancers, charging them to drive the winter off with their magics. Huge green fires burned along the walls of the Red Keep for a moon's turn. Prince Rhaegar was not in the city to observe them, however. Nor could he be found in Dragonstone with Princess Elia and their young son, Aegon. With the coming of the new year, the crown prince had taken to the road with half a dozen of his closest friends and confidants, on a journey that would ultimately lead him back to the riverlands. Not ten leagues from Harrenhal, Rhaegar fell upon Lyanna Stark of Winterfell, and carried her off, lighting a fire that would consume his house and kin and all those he loved—and half the realm besides.
But that tale is too well-known to warrant repeating here. (p. 127, in my edition.)

2

You're right! It was ten leagues! Well, "not ten leagues" means it could have been a little less.

I want to figure out the radius simply because I want to understand how and why she was there. I know there are theories but I really can't make up my mind until I know where she was when she was taken. I am that crazy.

Edited by Faera

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Posted (edited)

Quote

“Under Harren’s roof he ate and drank with the wolves, and many of their sworn swords besides, barrowdown men and moose and bears and mermen. The dragon prince sang a song so sad it made the wolf maid sniffle, but when her pup brother teased her for crying she poured wine over his head. A black brother spoke, asking the knights to join the Night’s Watch. The storm lord drank down the knight of skulls and kisses in a wine-cup war. The crannogman saw a maid with laughing purple eyes dance with a white sword, a red snake, and the lord of griffins, and lastly with the quiet wolf… but only after the wild wolf spoke to her on behalf of a brother too shy to leave his bench.

“Amidst all this merriment, the little crannogman spied the three squires who’d attacked him. One served a pitchfork knight, one a porcupine, while the last attended a knight with two towers on his surcoat, a sigil all crannogmen know well.”

“The Freys,” said Bran. “The Freys of the Crossing.”

“Then, as now,” she agreed. “The wolf maid saw them too, and pointed them out to her brothers. ‘I could find you a horse, and some armor that might fit,’ the pup offered. The little crannogman thanked him, but gave no answer. His heart was torn. Crannogmen are smaller than most, but just as proud. The lad was no knight, no more than any of his people. We sit a boat more often than a horse, and our hands are made for oars, not lances. Much as he wished to have his vengeance, he feared he would only make a fool of himself and shame his people. The quiet wolf had offered the little crannogman a place in his tent that night, but before he slept he knelt on the lakeshore, looking across the water to where the Isle of Faces would be, and said a prayer to the old gods of north and Neck…”

It's always good to go back to the text, isn't it?

First off, I want to say that this prose and the party it describes are very much like the Mad Hatter's Tea Party. People are described but don't seem to have names and the action seems chaotic and dream-like and random and wild. Participants in this thread and a thousand other threads have done a good job of trying to match people with sigils, but it's possible that the author doesn't want us to identify individuals in every case. Maybe the symbols we assume are sigils are not sigils but are literary symbols. For instance, what if the maid with purple eyes represents the Targaryen monarchy, not an individual? What if the white sword and red snake represent the White Knife and the Red Fork of the Trident? Or a sword of the king's guard and a bleeding wound? It just now occurs to me that griffins and fingers is probably a wordplay pair - what if our little crannogman is using a code to say that the Lord of Fingers was at the feast? As with a lot of the dream sequences in the books, we may find that the author has led us down one path that turns out to be a different path than we thought we were walking.

Having said that, this little bit of re-read opens my eyes to a strong hint about an alternate identity for the KotLT.

The wolf maid pours wine over the head of her pup brother. Where else in the books do we see wine being poured over someone's head? Joffrey pours wine over Tyrion's head at his wedding feast. What else happens at that wedding feast?

Skulls and kisses:

He wondered what Sansa would do if he leaned over and kissed her right now.

Ser Ilyn . . . reached back over his shoulder, and drew forth six feet of ornate silver bright with runes. He knelt to offer the huge blade to Joffrey, hilt first; points of red fire winked from ruby eyes on the pommel, a chunk of dragonglass in the shape of a grinning skull.

(The ornate silver sword could also be characterized as a white sword, I suppose.)

A wine-cup war:

Joffrey was almost upon him, red-faced and staggering, wine slopping over the rim of the great golden wedding chalice he carried in both hands. "Your Grace," was all he had time to say before the king upended the chalice over his head. The wine washed down over his face in a red torrent. It drenched his hair, stung his eyes, burned his wound, ran down his cheeks, and soaked the velvet of his new doublet.

A maid sniffling because of a song:

Grey-bearded Hamish the Harper announced that he would perform . . . "Lord Renly's Ride."

His fingers moved across the strings of the high harp, filling the throne room with sweet sound. . . .

Queen Margaery was teary-eyed by the end . . .

A clash about honor:

". . . Uncle Imp, you can serve me. Since you won't joust you'll be my cupbearer."

"I would be most honored."

"It is not meant to be an honor!"

The feast at Harrenhal is followed the next day by jousting. Joffrey wants Tyrion to participate in the jousting at the wedding feast. Of course, Tyrion refuses to join the mummer jousters and that refusal is soon forgotten because Joffrey chokes and dies in the presence of a reed:

A fearful high thin sound emerged from the boy's throat, the sound of a man trying to suck a river through a reed; then it stopped, and that was more terrible still.

"What about the blue flowers?" I hear you asking. Have you ever googled "Widow's Wail?" Did you know that it is the name of a blue flower?

So why would these parallels lead me to a new conclusion about the secret identity of the Knight of the Laughing Tree? Because the wine is spilled on the head of the "pup brother." Note that the unnamed Night's Watch brother at the feast speaks immediately after that incident, perhaps underscoring that the pup brother is Benjen. I believe the author is suggesting a comparison here between Benjen and Tyrion. Benjen is the Knight of the Laughing Tree.

At the wedding feast, Joffrey does declare Tyrion to be his champion, even though Tyrion refuses to joust. As I mentioned up the thread, Tyrion eventually does joust exactly as Joffrey had asked him to, riding the pig after being both taught by Penny and helped in and out of his "armor" by Penny - she is both knight and squire, I think, turning Tyrion into a knight. (She also throws a drink in Tyrion's face, as Joffrey did.)

Benjen offers to provide a scrounged set of armor for the little crannogman to do his own fighting, but the crannogman declines, knowing that he is unable to joust effectively. But "the pup" might have decided to wear the armor himself. This would make Benjen both squire (through his offer to provide armor to the crannogman) and knight (wearing the armor himself).

Also entering into my thinking is the complex and important role of uncles in ASOIAF. I realize that Benjen is Lyanna's brother, while Tyrion is Joffrey's uncle. But the reader knows Benjen primarily as an uncle - we see him in conversation with Jon before he disappears. Interestingly, we also see him provide Tyrion with a bearskin - is this a symbol like the Westeros wedding custom, where two people are joined by the giving of a cloak? Tyrion tells us that he suspects Benjen is surprised when Tyrion accepts the cloak, that Benjen would have preferred to keep it. I don't think the exchange is intended as a symbolic wedding, but I do think it could signify that Tyrion is symbolically wearing Benjen's skin. If the conjecture about R + L = J and about A + J = T is correct, both Benjen and Tyrion are uncles of Jon Snow. (For what it's worth, I will say, I do see a TON of evidence in the subtext that Tyrion is a Targaryen.)

The Knight of the Laughing Tree, Tyrion and Benjen also all mysteriously disappear and are the subject of concerted searching. Of course, we are also all dying for Howland Reed to make an appearance so we can find out what he knows. The moving Greywater Watch that can never be found might qualify Howland to be part of the group of awol uncles.

Of course, I have to think about whether other comparisons make sense. Lyanna and Joffrey do the pouring of the wine on the pup and Tyrion - are they similar? Not really, except the author gives us the Widow's Wail / blue roses parallel. And apparently both of them die in the presence of a reed. The author may offer us a clue in Margaery's tears and the sniffles of the wolf maid, however: a Lyanna / Margaery comparison is more believable. Recall that Renly asked Ned whether Margaery looked like Lyanna back when he thought she might make a good replacement wife for King Robert. Ned thought Renly was nuts, but the literary comparison was established by this conversation even if the two women did not share a strong resemblance.

Tywin gives Widow's Wail to Joffrey, and Rhaegar gives the blue roses to Lyanna. I could see a parallel here, especially if we think that the Harrenhal tourney was a way to explore making Rhaegar king and that Tywin supported Rhaegar's effort. Tywin's gift is a way to help legitimize the bastard king Joffrey; Rhaegar's gift may have been part of an effort to seduce Lyanna and produce a bastard who could become king.

If these parallels are accurate, this could help us to make inferences about Lyanna and Benjen. Things that happen to Margaery might offer clues about what happened to Lyanna, for instance. When last we saw her in the books, Margaery was a prisoner of the High Sparrow, accused of having lovers other than the king. What could the adventures of Tyrion tell us about the fate of Benjen? Could Tywin's demise help to clarify anything about the death of Rhaegar?

Edited by Seams

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17 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Arianne's chapter from Winds:

  Reveal hidden contents

"Connington was Lord of Griffin's Roost when Griffin's Roost was still a lordship worth the having. Prince Rhaegar's squire, or one of them. Later Prince Rhaegar's friend and companion. The Mad King named him Hand during Robert's Rebellion, but he was defeated at Stoney Sept in the Battle of the Bells, and Robert slipped away. King Aerys was wroth, and sent Connington into exile. There he died."

One knight can have several squires. So Jon was one of them, and Richard was the other.

Are you suggesting that Rhaegar trusted to Varys? Same Varys, that was constantly telling to Mad King, that Rhaegar wants to overthrow him?

If that's not what you meant, and trusted people were someone else, then how come the baby ended with Varys? So whatever Varys did was absolutely unconnected to Rhaegar's plans. It wasn't Rhaegar's idea to hide his son thru that method.

I have a theory that maybe Rhaegar did nothing to assure safety of those children, because shortly prior going after Lyanna, he found out that those children are not his. And that their real father was Oberyn Martell.

So what? If fAegon is a Blackfyre, then he's partially a Targaryen, so he can be not Rhaegar's son, but he still can have same eye color as Rhaegar. Because as I said, he was chosen to play a role of fAegon, because of his looks, as one of reasons. Varys could have taken any Valyrian looking child from Lys, but he prefered to take son of Jeyne Swann, because he had Blackfyre/Targaryen blood thru his father Barristan.

Though it's just a theory. I'm not saying that it's a fact, I'm just saying that it's a possibility.

As a solution, it's over-complicated, that's what.  It depends on a lot of what if's and maybe Rhaegar thought this or that. Not even I go that far in my assumptions.  But, it's your theory, so have fun with it. 

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Posted (edited)

36 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:
1 hour ago, Widow's Watch said:

I've given up trying to figure out the distances, personally. It's a headache. But what I know is that 50 leagues away from Harrenhal is not the God's Eye.

50 leagues is 172,6 miles.

So could be that Lyanna was at the Inn of the Kneeling Man. Hot Pie is living now at that Inn.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Inn_of_the_Kneeling_Man

Could be that Lyanna has stopped there on the way to Riverrun, approximately 125 miles from it. She was going from Winterfell, and 125 miles from that Inn to Riverrun, is another one, or two, or even three more days of travel.

Isle of Faces is 20 leagues ~70 miles from Harrenhal.

21 minutes ago, Faera said:

You're right! It was ten leagues! Well, "not ten leagues" means it could have been a little less.

The closest something, that is 10 leagues from Harrenhal is Rushing Falls, where was killed Beric Dondarrion.

Though on the opposite side of that lake, also 10 leagues from Harrenhal is located a small wood. Maybe it's some sort of sacred Weirwood, and Lyanna went there to pray. Or maybe she was visiting there Howland Reed, because they were friends. And that's why Howland went with Ned to retrieve Lyanna from Tower of Joy. Because he felt himself guilty in her kidnapping, she was taken by Rhaegar after she was visiting Howland.

Edited by Megorova

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34 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

I read once that HR may have thrown a net on AD or shot him with a poison dart.   I'm hearing an echo of a memory that Ned doesn't ever tell the tale of killing AD.  Then of course we do have that entirely alternate scenario from the other medium.  Could it be that Ned didn't actually smite the Sword of the Morning himself?   That would elevate Ned's honor in my eyes, not that it needed to be.  Nice. 

 

I personally think he probably fought with net and spear, again, like Meera does. The poison dart thing feels more like a long-distance tactic and one we have never seen Meera use in hand-to-hand combat - if I recall, she has a spear, shield, net and knife); during a melee fight, it makes more sense he would use his spear. Throw a net over him, stick him with the spear. That said, it could have been a tag-team effort. Ned was about to be killed but Howland threw his net over Arthur, allowing Ned to slide out of the way and kill him.

40 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

HR + LS?  That might be new, too.   I sure hope not.   We may get a bit more of Allyria when Areo Hotah comes for a visit with his snake and swan.   I'm not sold, but I am keeping it in my back pocket.   Be very aware of Dornish girls with grey eyes and long faces! 

 

I don't think it is true either but it was a very good read and used quotes and reasoning that made sense in context. It was a good read even if it didn't convince me.

42 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

I also just happen to have a bitchen timeline that calculates distance.   It isn't 100% accurate, but it tells you when it knows it's wrong.  It helped enormously in the Brienne topic.   Quite an eye opener.   Let me know if you want it for your arsenal.  I got the distinct impression that our LCM wanted to see the world or go home after Harrenhal.   Anything is possible without information.

That was the impression I got but Meera never clarified what he did. I guess we just assume he went home because he chose to leave the Isle off his own back but it might be that he went back for some reason.

I really love this idea of our young LCM having this excitement about seeing the world. Again, I pretty much use Meera as a possible personality metre for what a young LCM might have been like. Prior to going beyond the Wall and meaning Coldhands, everything seems so beautiful and exciting to her because she's never seen much beyond the Neck before. Like how she gets pleasure from being on top of the Queenstower, both hates and love the steep hills, has this fascination with that eagle, (which may or may not be Orell), and climbed the Wall even though Jojen implied it would be a waste of time. The whole "When will she come down?" / "When she is ready" exchange said a lot for something so little - that Jojen is used to his sister doing things for the fun of it - and it did remind me of the LCM.

Anything that would help me get a good idea of the radius of around where Lyanna *could* have been would help a lot.Something is just niggling at me. :P

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2 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

I have a growing idea on that. He is a stand in Aegon of Ice to the Real Aegon of Fire that died in K.L., so he's a stand in for the Three Heads of Rhaegar's dragon. 

He will be switching sides with Tyrion over to a different Three headed group Cersei, Jamie, and Tyrion. Who like F/Aegon is a child of Ice and Fire. Tryion through Aerys II and Joanna his Ice side. Faegon got his fire from Blackfyre side, but his Ice from his Bracken side.

So each side will be balanced. Fire, Fire, Ice vs Ice, Ice, Fire.

Welcome, Sandman.  We are discussing what it was that Howland Reed, our Little Crannogman, was really seeing at Harrenhal.  You are a symbolism guy.   What do you make of  2 mentions of the Storm Lord amid all the other mentions?  

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3 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Welcome, Sandman.  We are discussing what it was that Howland Reed, our Little Crannogman, was really seeing at Harrenhal.  You are a symbolism guy.   What do you make of  2 mentions of the Storm Lord amid all the other mentions?  

2 mentions in the story plus one in the world book I think

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20 minutes ago, Megorova said:

50 leagues is 172,6 miles.

So could be that Lyanna was at the Inn of the Kneeling Man. Hot Pie is living now at that Inn.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Inn_of_the_Kneeling_Man

Could be that Lyanna has stopped there on the way to Riverrun, approximately 125 miles from it. She was going from Winterfell, and 125 miles from that Inn to Riverrun, is another one, or two, or even three more days of travel.

Isle of Faces is 20 leagues ~70 miles from Harrenhal.

The closest something, that is 10 leagues from Harrenhal is Rushing Falls, where was killed Beric Dondarrion.

Though on the opposite side of that lake, also 10 leagues from Harrenhal is located a small wood. Maybe it's some sort of sacred Weirwood, and Lyanna went there to pray. Or maybe she was visiting there Howland Reed, because they were friends. And that's why Howland went with Ned to retrieve Lyanna from Tower of Joy. Because he felt himself guilty in her kidnapping, she was taken by Rhaegar after she was visiting Howland.

Where are you getting your distances from Megorova?  You've got much more information than my timeline/distance calculator has. 

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27 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

Oh! Do you think he broke into song when he stepped off his little boat? 

I think there's something wistful about him because this is such a different world for him. From now on, when I think of Howland, I'll always see him as Giselle from Enchanted. 

All kidding aside, if Howland spent the winter at the Isle of Faces, that was about 2 years before the false spring began.

Yep, he went into full princess-mode, complete with twirling.

And now the image of Howland = Giselle will never leave my mind either! ;)

Two years, huh? That's something I never realised before: 

Quote

"But this lad was bolder than most, and one day when he had grown to manhood he decided he would leave the crannogs and visit the Isle of Faces...
"All that winter the crannogman stayed on the isle, but when the spring broke he heard the wide world calling and knew the time had come to leave..."

2

He was there all winter. I know it is a little thing but it also gives us a rough estimate of his age. If he got to the IoF when he was about sixteen and left at about eighteen, it might even be that he wanted to get just a little more adventuring in before he knew he inevitably had to return to the Neck. I also wonder about when he actually became "Lord Reed"... I guess his father must have been alive for the crannogmen to not try and stop him wandering off for a winter.

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43 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

Oh! Do you think he broke into song when he stepped off his little boat? 

I think there's something wistful about him because this is such a different world for him. From now on, when I think of Howland, I'll always see him as Giselle from Enchanted. 

All kidding aside, if Howland spent the winter at the Isle of Faces, that was about 2 years before the false spring began.

The World book mentions 10 leagues and GRRM says that 1 league is 3 miles. But 50 leagues from Harrenhal can literally be anywhere, north, east, south, west, and everywhere in between. Personally and since we had a whole lot of exposition in the one Jaime chapter in ADWD, about the Brackens and the Blackwoods, their feuds, Jonos Bracken wanting land from the Blackwoods he said was stolen, and the Blackfyre Rebellions backdrop and the possibility that Varys was at it as early as when he arrived in King's Landing, I'm inclined to think that Pennytree or those whereabouts could be the location of the so-called abduction. But that seems too far.

A league is a little more than 3 miles, but 3 is close enough for government work.  Are we looking 10 leagues or 50 leagues?   Leagues are water distance.   I don't think a person would use leagues on land.  Whether 10 or 50 leagues we need to look to water for the location.  

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6 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Where are you getting your distances from Megorova?  You've got much more information than my timeline/distance calculator has. 

Map of Westeros with mile scale.

1 league is 3,45 miles. 10 leagues is 34,5 miles.

Take a scale from Westeros map, and look at it where is 34,5 miles from Harrenhal.

P.S. I found on another map, that in that wood on opposite side from Rushing Falls, are located ruins of Whitewalls (where happened Second Rebellion of Blackfyres).

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20 minutes ago, Faera said:

I personally think he probably fought with net and spear, again, like Meera does. The poison dart thing feels more like a long-distance tactic and one we have never seen Meera use in hand-to-hand combat - if I recall, she has a spear, shield, net and knife); during a melee fight, it makes more sense he would use his spear. Throw a net over him, stick him with the spear. That said, it could have been a tag-team effort. Ned was about to be killed but Howland threw his net over Arthur, allowing Ned to slide out of the way and kill him.

I don't think it is true either but it was a very good read and used quotes and reasoning that made sense in context. It was a good read even if it didn't convince me.

That was the impression I got but Meera never clarified what he did. I guess we just assume he went home because he chose to leave the Isle off his own back but it might be that he went back for some reason.

I really love this idea of our young LCM having this excitement about seeing the world. Again, I pretty much use Meera as a possible personality metre for what a young LCM might have been like. Prior to going beyond the Wall and meaning Coldhands, everything seems so beautiful and exciting to her because she's never seen much beyond the Neck before. Like how she gets pleasure from being on top of the Queenstower, both hates and love the steep hills, has this fascination with that eagle, (which may or may not be Orell), and climbed the Wall even though Jojen implied it would be a waste of time. The whole "When will she come down?" / "When she is ready" exchange said a lot for something so little - that Jojen is used to his sister doing things for the fun of it - and it did remind me of the LCM.

Anything that would help me get a good idea of the radius of around where Lyanna *could* have been would help a lot.Something is just niggling at me. :P

I'm using the interactive game of thrones map as well as 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ZsY3lcDDtTdBWp1Gx6mfkdtZT6-Gk0kdTGeSC_Dj7WM/edit#gid=1

It's a spreadsheet, so give it time to load.   Lots and lots of information.  

For you, too @Widow's Watch--hope it helps.   

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5 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Map of Westeros with mile scale.

1 league is 3,45 miles. 10 leagues is 34,5 miles.

Take a scale from Westeros map, and look at it where is 34,5 miles from Harrenhal.

P.S. I found on another map, that in that wood on opposite side from Rushing Falls, are located ruins of Whitewalls (where happened Second Rebellion of Blackfyres).

Ah, you're doing it old school style!   I get it now.   Thanks. 

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12 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

A league is a little more than 3 miles, but 3 is close enough for government work.  Are we looking 10 leagues or 50 leagues?   Leagues are water distance.   I don't think a person would use leagues on land.  Whether 10 or 50 leagues we need to look to water for the location.  

"A league is a unit of length (or, in various regions, area). It was common in Europe and Latin America, but is no longer an official unit in any nation. The word originally meant the distance a person could walk in an hour.[1] Since the Middle Ages, many values have been specified in several countries."

"English-speaking world

On land, the league is most commonly defined as three miles, though the length of a mile could vary from place to place and depending on the era."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/League_(unit)

GRRM or co-authors of TWOIAF were just using an old unit. So those leagues were actually measure of distance on land.

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@LynnS, @Megorova, @divica, @Widow's Watch and @Faera:  You win.   I am hopelessly lost in this conversation.  

One of you mentioned Rushing Falls.   I only found it mentioned as a place where Beric Dondarion was killed--the 3rd time, I think.   It's not a very exciting place.   My map isn't giving me the detail Megorova's is so I can't verify Whitewalls, though I find that to be a fascinating connection.   There is a small unnamed river that runs south from The God's Eye and looks to run into the Blackwater Rush.  Leagues indicates Lyanna disappeared on water or very near water so we can start with water near or surrounding Harrenhal.   The Red Fork looks to be a good distance north of Harrenhal. The sea may work as well.  (Land miles are used in the story--this is screaming water to me.)  I think Megorova may be on to something looking for notable places for Lyanna's disappearance.   If it's up to me let's pass on Rushing Falls.   How about that so curious Quiet Isle where they are waiting for a ruby?   I will see if I can get a decent distance and report back.  

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9 minutes ago, Megorova said:

"A league is a unit of length (or, in various regions, area). It was common in Europe and Latin America, but is no longer an official unit in any nation. The word originally meant the distance a person could walk in an hour.[1] Since the Middle Ages, many values have been specified in several countries."

"English-speaking world

On land, the league is most commonly defined as three miles, though the length of a mile could vary from place to place and depending on the era."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/League_(unit)

GRRM or co-authors of TWOIAF were just using an old unit. So those leagues were actually measure of distance on land.

Yah I got that, too.   It's throwing me here because GRRM also uses miles so it's easy to get confused.   My distance calculator clocks the Red Fork at 195 miles from Harrenhal.   That is a little farther than we wanted, but may be close enough for an estimated distance?  

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