Harrenhall Through A Little Crannogman’s Eyes

[divica]

4 minutes ago, Edgar Allen Poemont said:

Lol. Right? I must admit on my first read I sort of dismissed him too, largely because I think I thought his name was a little silly and took on the Westerosi assumption that the King Beyond the Wall is no real King at all. I think I was wrong on both accounts. I'm not sure if we have a set year for his birth, but I tend to think he's maybe a few years younger than Eddard. It would stand to reason, if that's the case, that he would have been around a mid to later teen maybe at the Tourney of Harrenhal and that as he is cuurently a middle aged man of middling height as KBtW, he may have been smallish as a youth, somewhat like Loras or even Jon.

I think grrm will have to give a much bettter background to mance. It is becoming ridiculous that he is able to do the things he does. If was able to take off mel's jewel from him and send the PL he is the most amazing character in asoiaf. There is nothing he doesn t have the ability to do.

[Edgar Allen Poemont]

He might not have been able to save the first woman he truly loved though, if what I'm suggesting plays out in TWoW. I think all of GRRM's characters have talents and shortcomings. He also broke his oath to the NW and I believe the gods take those oaths seriously, despite even the best intentions or the most valid reasons for doing so. I also think GRRM holds back on the full background of any character until the time is right.

[Curled Finger]

18 minutes ago, divica said:

wouldn t he be too young to be on a mission like this at the time?

And is there anything mance can t do well?

He sings, he plays, he is a master swordsman, he climbs, he is a king, he is a scout... Seriousy, the man desserves a song. He is a legend!

I'm guessing Mance would be in his late 30s or early 40s, but don't quote me I could be crossing my mediums here.    

[Curled Finger]

31 minutes ago, Edgar Allen Poemont said:

He might not have been able to save the first woman he truly loved though, if what I'm suggesting plays out in TWoW. I think all of GRRM's characters have talents and shortcomings. He also broke his oath to the NW and I believe the gods take those oaths seriously, despite even the best intentions or the most valid reasons for doing so. I also think GRRM holds back on the full background of any character until the time is right.

This is really something, Edgar.  I don't mean in any way to discourage you.   Keep studying and talking to people.   I will be looking for your topic when you post it.   

[Curled Finger]

1 hour ago, Edgar Allen Poemont said:

Thanks Curled Finger. I've been spending a lot of time thinking about the books and trying to examine some of the ways I maybe miss things by clinging to assumptions I may have or in some sense, maybe what I want to be true, based on my emotional attachment to characters and my hopes for what they will do or be. I've found it very insightful. I believe in using text and quotes to back up my ideas but it's a lot of work and tonight I'm a little short on time, but I wanted to a least write down some of what I've been thinking about because it helps flesh it out some in my mind. I've also been trying to trust my intuition a bit more and relying on the spirit of questioning and being open to possibilities in the connections you can make sometimes, just by daydreaming and wondering. If something strikes me I go back and try to reread with those things in mind. It can be really helpful and I sensed this thread had that spirit. A lot of whys and what do you thinks and a lot less arguing, which I find way more useful in my quest in unraveling the ASoIaF colossus. I agree I like that synchronicity too about all the once and future Kings being there. I think GRRM is saying something there and I really believe he is a master at weaving parallels and themes and he wants us to follow as many of the ones that strike us as we can. I also think he is a master not only at subverting literary tropes but also has a fantastic handle on human nature and the ways we interact with each other and the ways we try to control people and situations and environments around us, sometimes for selfish reasons and sometimes for noble reasons, but ultimately how we have so little control over the big picture. Best laid plans of mice and men, so to speak. 

Yep that's how you know you're in my topic--all the backward replies.   Sorry, an unexpected guest dropped by.   You are very kind to notice the good company we have here.   We are a bunch of chatter birds.  The point of a book club is to analyze and investigate and share your findings.  I'm on a mission here to understand what our little Crannogman was trying to tell us in his story about the Knight of the Laughing Tree.  I've found some very good company to bounce things off of and bounce things back.  Don't be hesitant to post and chat, Edgar.   Remember there is a person behind the words on your screen.   We all have questions and ideas as you can see here some of us know a bit more than others or have better recall or really know a subject or character.  It's a high compliment to our conversation that you felt comfortable enough to share your thoughts with us.  Feel free to jump in where ever you like.   

[LynnS]

48 minutes ago, Edgar Allen Poemont said:

He might not have been able to save the first woman he truly loved though, if what I'm suggesting plays out in TWoW. I think all of GRRM's characters have talents and shortcomings. He also broke his oath to the NW and I believe the gods take those oaths seriously, despite even the best intentions or the most valid reasons for doing so. I also think GRRM holds back on the full background of any character until the time is right.

I don't think it's far-fetched at all.  Mance is known to have visited Winterfell several times as a man of the Watch.  It might even have been Mance who recruited Benjen for the Watch.  A brother of the Watch may well have travelled with the Starks to Harrenhal and shared their company during the tournament. So I do think it's a possibility that Mance may have been the mystery knight and it wouldn't be out of place for him to use the device of the weirwood and laughing face if he took his vows to the old gods like Jon. Or to come to Howland's defence as a bannerman of the Starks.  Who is going to suspect a man of the Watch?

Mance is described as midling in size and it may well be that he seems smaller than the other knights in full regalia.  Benjen who knows him well; doesn't notice him at all when Mance shows up at Winterfell to see the king.  The Knight of the Laughing Tree may well have been hiding in plain sight.       

[Curled Finger]

1 minute ago, LynnS said:

I don't think it's far-fetched at all.  Mance is known to have visited Winterfell several times as a man of the Watch.  It might even have been Mance who recruited Benjen for the Watch.  A brother of the Watch may well have travelled with the Starks to Harrenhal and shared their company during the tournament. So I do think it's a possibility that Mance may have been the mystery knight and it wouldn't be out of place for him to use the device of the weirwood and laughing face if he took his vows to the old gods like Jon.  Who is going to suspect a man of the Watch?

Mance is described as midling in size and it may well be that he seems smaller than the other knights in full regalia.  Benjen who knows him well; doesn't notice him at all when Mance shows up at Winterfell to see the king.  The Knight of the Laughing Tree may well have been hiding in plain sight.       

We are developing a habit of finding the most interesting ideas right around page 12 lately, aren't we?   

[LynnS]

2 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

We are developing a habit of finding the most interesting ideas right around page 12 lately, aren't we?   

LOL!  It would never have occurred to me if Edgar Allen Poemont hadn't suggested it. 

[Lady Dacey]

I think our black brother is a young Yoren. He was a recruiter for thirty years... It was his duty to get people from around the realm to go to the Wall. We only see him geting "the pick of the dungeons", but we can see that he would also try and convince knights and men at arms to join, like Jon wants Daeron to do. 

Yoren tells Arya he's been taking man to the Wall through the kings road for 30 years 

Quote

ACOK, Arya III

"Been bringing men to the Wall for close on thirty years." Froth shone on Yoren's lips, like bubbles of blood. "All that time, I only lost three. Old man died of a fever, city boy got snakebit taking a shit, and one fool tried to kill me in my sleep and got a red smile for his trouble." He drew the dirk across his throat, to show her. "Three in thirty years." He spat out the old sourleaf. "A ship now, might have been wiser. No chance o' finding more men on the way, but still . . . clever man, he'd go by ship, but me . . . thirty years I been taking this kingsroad."u

Quote

AFFC, Sam II

He [Daereon] had always claimed to be innocent of the rape that sent him to the Wall, insisting that he belonged at some lord's court, singing for his supper. Now he would have that chance. Jon had named him a recruiter, to take the place of a man named Yoren, who had vanished and was presumed dead. His task would be to travel the Seven Kingdoms, singing of the valor of the Night's Watch, and from time to time returning to the Wall with new recruits.

So he would have been a young recruiter by the year of the false spring. 

[Lady Dacey]

11 hours ago, Seams said:

It's always good to go back to the text, isn't it?

First off, I want to say that this prose and the party it describes are very much like the Mad Hatter's Tea Party. People are described but don't seem to have names and the action seems chaotic and dream-like and random and wild. Participants in this thread and a thousand other threads have done a good job of trying to match people with sigils, but it's possible that the author doesn't want us to identify individuals in every case. Maybe the symbols we assume are sigils are not sigils but are literary symbols. For instance, what if the maid with purple eyes represents the Targaryen monarchy, not an individual? What if the white sword and red snake represent the White Knife and the Red Fork of the Trident? Or a sword of the king's guard and a bleeding wound? It just now occurs to me that griffins and fingers is probably a wordplay pair - what if our little crannogman is using a code to say that the Lord of Fingers was at the feast? As with a lot of the dream sequences in the books, we may find that the author has led us down one path that turns out to be a different path than we thought we were walking.

Having said that, this little bit of re-read opens my eyes to a strong hint about an alternate identity for the KotLT.

The wolf maid pours wine over the head of her pup brother. Where else in the books do we see wine being poured over someone's head? Joffrey pours wine over Tyrion's head at his wedding feast. What else happens at that wedding feast?

Skulls and kisses:

He wondered what Sansa would do if he leaned over and kissed her right now.

Ser Ilyn . . . reached back over his shoulder, and drew forth six feet of ornate silver bright with runes. He knelt to offer the huge blade to Joffrey, hilt first; points of red fire winked from ruby eyes on the pommel, a chunk of dragonglass in the shape of a grinning skull.

(The ornate silver sword could also be characterized as a white sword, I suppose.)

A wine-cup war:

Joffrey was almost upon him, red-faced and staggering, wine slopping over the rim of the great golden wedding chalice he carried in both hands. "Your Grace," was all he had time to say before the king upended the chalice over his head. The wine washed down over his face in a red torrent. It drenched his hair, stung his eyes, burned his wound, ran down his cheeks, and soaked the velvet of his new doublet.

A maid sniffling because of a song:

Grey-bearded Hamish the Harper announced that he would perform . . . "Lord Renly's Ride."

His fingers moved across the strings of the high harp, filling the throne room with sweet sound. . . .

Queen Margaery was teary-eyed by the end . . .

A clash about honor:

". . . Uncle Imp, you can serve me. Since you won't joust you'll be my cupbearer."

"I would be most honored."

"It is not meant to be an honor!"

The feast at Harrenhal is followed the next day by jousting. Joffrey wants Tyrion to participate in the jousting at the wedding feast. Of course, Tyrion refuses to join the mummer jousters and that refusal is soon forgotten because Joffrey chokes and dies in the presence of a reed:

A fearful high thin sound emerged from the boy's throat, the sound of a man trying to suck a river through a reed; then it stopped, and that was more terrible still.

"What about the blue flowers?" I hear you asking. Have you ever googled "Widow's Wail?" Did you know that it is the name of a blue flower?

So why would these parallels lead me to a new conclusion about the secret identity of the Knight of the Laughing Tree? Because the wine is spilled on the head of the "pup brother." Note that the unnamed Night's Watch brother at the feast speaks immediately after that incident, perhaps underscoring that the pup brother is Benjen. I believe the author is suggesting a comparison here between Benjen and Tyrion. Benjen is the Knight of the Laughing Tree.

At the wedding feast, Joffrey does declare Tyrion to be his champion, even though Tyrion refuses to joust. As I mentioned up the thread, Tyrion eventually does joust exactly as Joffrey had asked him to, riding the pig after being both taught by Penny and helped in and out of his "armor" by Penny - she is both knight and squire, I think, turning Tyrion into a knight. (She also throws a drink in Tyrion's face, as Joffrey did.)

Benjen offers to provide a scrounged set of armor for the little crannogman to do his own fighting, but the crannogman declines, knowing that he is unable to joust effectively. But "the pup" might have decided to wear the armor himself. This would make Benjen both squire (through his offer to provide armor to the crannogman) and knight (wearing the armor himself).

Also entering into my thinking is the complex and important role of uncles in ASOIAF. I realize that Benjen is Lyanna's brother, while Tyrion is Joffrey's uncle. But the reader knows Benjen primarily as an uncle - we see him in conversation with Jon before he disappears. Interestingly, we also see him provide Tyrion with a bearskin - is this a symbol like the Westeros wedding custom, where two people are joined by the giving of a cloak? Tyrion tells us that he suspects Benjen is surprised when Tyrion accepts the cloak, that Benjen would have preferred to keep it. I don't think the exchange is intended as a symbolic wedding, but I do think it could signify that Tyrion is symbolically wearing Benjen's skin. If the conjecture about R + L = J and about A + J = T is correct, both Benjen and Tyrion are uncles of Jon Snow. (For what it's worth, I will say, I do see a TON of evidence in the subtext that Tyrion is a Targaryen.)

The Knight of the Laughing Tree, Tyrion and Benjen also all mysteriously disappear and are the subject of concerted searching. Of course, we are also all dying for Howland Reed to make an appearance so we can find out what he knows. The moving Greywater Watch that can never be found might qualify Howland to be part of the group of awol uncles.

Of course, I have to think about whether other comparisons make sense. Lyanna and Joffrey do the pouring of the wine on the pup and Tyrion - are they similar? Not really, except the author gives us the Widow's Wail / blue roses parallel. And apparently both of them die in the presence of a reed. The author may offer us a clue in Margaery's tears and the sniffles of the wolf maid, however: a Lyanna / Margaery comparison is more believable. Recall that Renly asked Ned whether Margaery looked like Lyanna back when he thought she might make a good replacement wife for King Robert. Ned thought Renly was nuts, but the literary comparison was established by this conversation even if the two women did not share a strong resemblance.

Tywin gives Widow's Wail to Joffrey, and Rhaegar gives the blue roses to Lyanna. I could see a parallel here, especially if we think that the Harrenhal tourney was a way to explore making Rhaegar king and that Tywin supported Rhaegar's effort. Tywin's gift is a way to help legitimize the bastard king Joffrey; Rhaegar's gift may have been part of an effort to seduce Lyanna and produce a bastard who could become king.

If these parallels are accurate, this could help us to make inferences about Lyanna and Benjen. Things that happen to Margaery might offer clues about what happened to Lyanna, for instance. When last we saw her in the books, Margaery was a prisoner of the High Sparrow, accused of having lovers other than the king. What could the adventures of Tyrion tell us about the fate of Benjen? Could Tywin's demise help to clarify anything about the death of Rhaegar?

Wow, Seams, I loved this!!! Indeed Benjen is a very uncle-y figure. This "uncle of a king/prince" (assuming R+L=J) parallel is very interesting. I had no idea "Widow's Wail" was actually a flower. A blue one!! Amazing!

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Lady Dacey said:

I think our black brother is a young Yoren. He was a recruiter for thirty years... It was his duty to get people from around the realm to go to the Wall. We only see him geting "the pick of the dungeons", but we can see that he would also try and convince knights and men at arms to join, like Jon wants Daeron to do. 

Yoren tells Arya he's been taking man to the Wall through the kings road for 30 years 

So he would have been a young recruiter by the year of the false spring. 

Mance tells Jon that he was an escort to the old lord commander; a party of a dozen when the Watch was stronger in number.  Mormont sends two NW with Yoren to escort Tyrion to Winterfell.  So it's not out of the question that Yoren or other men of the watch were sent recruiting together, especially if they were bards. Jon at least sees the sense in it.  Howland only mentions the man of the Watch giving a speech. It doesn't mean he was the only one there.   We're also not told the numbers representing each house in attendance.  Mention is only made of their prominent members or their squires. 

To go a step further; if Mance was the KotLT, what could Rhaegar do about it if he came to know the identity of the KotLT?  The men of the Watch seek no glory.  But given all the Bael symbolism around Mance; it would make some sense if Rhaegar was asked to give the crown of winter roses to Lyanna in payment.     

[AlaskanSandman]

11 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Welcome, Sandman.  We are discussing what it was that Howland Reed, our Little Crannogman, was really seeing at Harrenhal.  You are a symbolism guy.   What do you make of  2 mentions of the Storm Lord amid all the other mentions?  

Always struck me as a little odd, but nothing i can put my thumb to just yet. Yet Robert being chummy with Rhaegar's friend the whole time, while never mentioned to be with Eddard at any point despite having grown up together. Did he not introduce Eddard to the other higher ups of the south that he knew? For being so close to Lonmouth, i find it weird that no mention of Rhaegar and Robert are ever mentioned any where in the text other than this night, the day the rose was gave, and the war. Yet, here Robert is like a good young knight, eager to impress his king and find the mysterious Laughing Knight (Laughing Storm thoughts come to mind, and this also make me think of Euron GreyJoy. The Laughing evil Storm.)

Again though, did Robert never go to the Stark tent, Starks never to his tent? Were the tents even close? The events that led to Robert taking the Throne as opposed to Jon Arryn, or Eddard Stark who's family was at the heart of the conflict (Brandon, Lyanna, Rickard, himself) as compared to Roberts ties to the war and it's beginning. Robert, who shares not a single interaction that we are told of, before the war. Is Robert even seated near the Starks when the Blue Rose was given? 

Also, again. The war started over Eddard's family. How did this become about Robert then? Cause he happened to be at the Eyrie with Eddard? If they're brothers and friends, im not seeing it. I know of not a single fond memory between the two that i can recall either. I can recall them fighting and bickering with each other both during the rebellion and during the current narrative. 

Did it start about Eddard and just become about Robert while Eddard was stuck rallying forces? I mean, i get that Lyanna was betrothed to Robert, but there just seems to be something missing. I mean, he's engaged to the Starks sister. Yet doesn't even hang out with them during the biggest Tourney in recent history. In fact, he seems to be trying to impress the Targaryens and separate him self from Eddard. I feel like there is a misdirect that im still missing lol

As far as mister Howland Reed? I've talked about him before including the whole Ashara Dayne thing. 
Firstly Howland's timing is past suspicious, especially praying to them the night before the Laughing Tree showed up. Then it's Howland taking note of Ashara that causes Eddard to take notice. Brandon does take notice too, but all we're told is that he asked her if shed dance with Eddard. This sounds like the awesome person Robert should have been being to Eddard, but it's not, its his true brother, Brandon. Either way, both Starks have noticed her now though setting up peoples theories to do with them (I dont believe either. Except that Eddard did love her and possibly spent the night talking to her and comforting her, sharing a kiss that night). Either way, there story ends with the Laughing Tree and goes no further.

So why even mention the Maid with Purple eyes to begin with? I assume they're telling this story to Bran as it's tied to him. The Knight being Lyanna would make sense as to why they're telling him. The fact that their father may have loved Ashara is also another good reason. Specially if Howland knew something else about the war and his marriage to Cat. Though they hold back information upon learning that Bran's father never shared these stories. So there is plenty of reason to pour over these accounts and try to look at them in a new light. Little attention is given to Brandon in the story too, so take that how ever you want. But what is not told can be equal to what is being said too. Half truths seem to be Martins style.

Alot of attention how ever is given to who Ashara Dayne dance with though. Bullys, Meet Starks, Attend Dinner Dance where Ashara pops up. Bullys and Mystery Knight. End story. It wasn't enough just to say Howland watched a girl dance, so Eddard danced with her? Which in it self is weird too. The story goes from Howland staring at her, to Eddard getting to dance with her, to people thinking she hooked up with Brandon or Eddard. The jump to Brandon in all of that i have neverrrr understood. No matter how many times i've listed to people try to explain why and how Brandon would low ball his brother has never made sense to me based on other accounts of him. Brandon sounds nothing like Robert Baratheon, at all. Brandon actually sounds like he was a good honorable guy. Not a drunk wenching war hungry guy. He even showed control and spared Peter after trying to give Peter the chance to stand down. Till finally having to lay a heavy blow on him to just end it.  I can see Good Queen Alysanne being more of a shady character than Brandon Stark the Wild Wolf. Who has really no wild stories. 

Further, Brandon Stark is NOT Oberyn Martel. Who we do hear about sleeping with who ever he wants (married women?) and then challenging the husbands to a fight (something more in line with Robert too). Oberyn and Robert are wild. Brandon is not.

Lyanna even thinks of Robert as a whore. If she was raised with an older brother say, like Oberyn, she would be more inclined to view love as more of a primal desire mixed up more with her sexuality. Yet she doesn't, she tells Ned quite the opposite about love. She's not Sansa. What makes that girls heart drum is not the same i would wager and is closer to Arya with out the scars. Though how Arya would have been with out the trauma she has suffered is up to debate, but i imagine she'd still have fallen in love. Who would Arya fall for on any level? 

The Dance. - Every one Ashara Dances with is tied to the war on some important level with Barristan being the least tied. As no one trusted him with anything other than doing his basic job. Jon Darry is tied to Willam Darry who raises Viserys and Daenerys supposedly. Whent, Hightower and her brother were all at the Tower of Joy. Martel was rumored to have a paramour and was from the south and should know Ashara Dayne already. Also he is tied to Oberyn, Elia, and the rest. Who's family was used against him during the war. 

Now- Had Rhaegars plan's gone the way he planned. What were they? Simply unite the realm in over throwing his father? Whom he protected during the war? That makes no sense. Why not just kill him, and take the throne. What ever Rhaegar was hoping to accomplish, wasn't by just over throwing his father. Not by force i dont think. 

Further, i still think Rhaegar had more planned. 

Who would Rheagar have crowned queen and love and beauty had he never met Lyanna Stark due to Howland Reeds meddling?

Lyanna would have never defended Howland. Despite having seen Rheagar play music and weep. What could Lyanna have done that would have caught Rhaegar's eye other wise? If not for Howland Reed? Robert never presented his new bride to his Royal cousins apparently.

[AlaskanSandman]

21 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Mance tells Jon that he was an escort to the old lord commander; a party of a dozen when the Watch was stronger in number.  Mormont sends two NW with Yoren to escort Tyrion to Winterfell.  So it's not out of the question that Yoren or other men of the watch were sent recruiting together, especially if they were bards. Jon at least sees the sense in it.  Howland only mentions the man of the Watch giving a speech. It doesn't mean he was the only one there.   We're also not told the numbers representing each house in attendance.  Mention is only made of their prominent members or their squires. 

To go a step further; if Mance was the KotLT, what could Rhaegar do about it if he came to know the identity of the KotLT?  The men of the Watch seek no glory.  But given all the Bael symbolism around Mance; it would make some sense if Rhaegar was asked to give the crown of winter roses to Lyanna in payment.     

I didn't catch this whole convo but what would the payment be for? What would Rhaegar be in dept to Mance for?

[LynnS]

20 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

I didn't catch this whole convo but what would the payment be for? What would Rhaegar be in dept to Mance for?

The crown of roses is the victor's crown.  Asking Rhaegar to give the crown to Lyanna in lieu of horses, armor, glory, having won the joust against the three knights and declining to go further in the contest, having made the point about honor.  Rhaegar may have felt honor bound to reward the KoLT in this way without revealing his identity.

Quote

"Bael the Bard," said Jon, remembering the tale that Ygritte had told him in the Frostfangs, the night he'd almost killed her.

"Would that I were. I will not deny that Bael's exploit inspired mine own . . . but I did not steal either of your sisters that I recall. Bael wrote his own songs, and lived them. I only sing the songs that better men have made. More mead?

The crown of winter roses may well be inspired by Mance's exploits.

Quote

". . . of Bael the Bard and the rose of Winterfell. So Stonesnake told me. It happens I know the song. Mance would sing it of old, when he came back from a ranging. He had a passion for wildling music. Aye, and for their women as well

 

[AlaskanSandman]

19 minutes ago, LynnS said:

The crown of roses is the victor's crown.  Asking Rhaegar to give the crown to Lyanna in lieu of horses, armor, glory, having won the joust against the three knights and declining to go further in the contest, having made the point about honor.  Rhaegar may have felt honor bound to reward the KoLT in this way without revealing his identity.

The crown of winter roses may well be inspired by Mance's exploits.

 

Oh ok, i got you. 

Its an interesting thought. In that line though Mance is referring to his recent trip south at the start of AGOT, and him not stealing a stark wife.

Which i think is equally as important. As i just did a recent thread actually over Bael the Bard and what he may have actually been up to, and under that thread, he didn't kidnap a Stark at all. He took Queen Alysanne in the early years of her marriage to Jaehaerys (their first unknown quarrel) to which she gave birth at Queen's Crown (Google birthing and crowing.). So the son that Bael fathered is a Targaryen bastard adopted into House Stark possibly as a Snow (Sound familiar? Daynes, Jon Snow? The Dayne's helped hide the truth this time, as the Starks helped hide the truth back then.). If said son of Bael married any one else in the Stark family tree, House Targaryen, House Stark, and a line North of the Wall, are all connected now. Which would explain why Val seem's Valyrian and noble to boot. 

So, that being said. Every thing Mance knows and does based on what he "really" knows,  changes alot of the picture for me. 

To be clear. Jon is the son of Rheagar and Lyanna, hidden among the Starks as a son of Wylla and Eddard- Courtesy of House Dayne covering for the Starks, who are hiding something for them as well tied to the Targaryens.

[LynnS]

11 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Oh ok, i got you. 

Its an interesting thought. In that line though Mance is referring to his recent trip south at the start of AGOT, and him not stealing a stark wife.

Which i think is equally as important. As i just did a recent thread actually over Bael the Bard and what he may have actually been up to, and under that thread, he didn't kidnap a Stark at all. He took Queen Alysanne in the early years of her marriage to Jaehaerys (their first unknown quarrel) to which she gave birth at Queen's Crown (Google birthing and crowing.). So the son that Bael fathered is a Targaryen bastard adopted into House Stark possibly as a Snow (Sound familiar? Daynes, Jon Snow? The Dayne's helped hide the truth this time, as the Starks helped hide the truth back then.). If said son of Bael married any one else in the Stark family tree, House Targaryen, House Stark, and a line North of the Wall, are all connected now. Which would explain why Val seem's Valyrian and noble to boot. 

So, that being said. Every thing Mance knows and does based on what he "really" knows,  changes alot of the picture for me. 

To be clear. Jon is the son of Rheagar and Lyanna, hidden among the Starks as a son of Wylla and Eddard- Courtesy of House Dayne covering for the Starks, who are hiding something for them as well tied to the Targaryens.

I'm not taking that bet.  If Mance was the KotLT; it's his wish to give Lyanna the crown of roses; not Rhaegar's.  But it does lead to a misunderstanding about Rhaegar's purpose in giving the roses as Mance's proxy and inspires a kidnapping plot later.   Something that ends up being a sad tale for another time. 

Mance may well be another version of Barristan Selmy.

[AlaskanSandman]

1 minute ago, LynnS said:

I'm not taking that bet.  If Mance was the KotLT; it's his wish to give Lyanna the crown of roses; not Rhaegar's.  But it does lead to a misunderstanding about Rhaegar's purpose in giving the roses as Mance's proxy and inspires a kidnapping plot later.   Something that ends up being a sad tale for another time. 

Mance may well be another version of Barristan Selmy.

Haha i got you  Well i would still love to see a fully drawn up theory! I love trying to look at the story from new angles and see how these narratives are supposed to over lap and connect 

[Megorova]

12 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Yah I got that, too.   It's throwing me here because GRRM also uses miles so it's easy to get confused.   My distance calculator clocks the Red Fork at 195 miles from Harrenhal.   That is a little farther than we wanted, but may be close enough for an estimated distance?  

195 miles is even further than 50 leagues. And @Faera on page 11 gave us a quote from TWOIAF book: "Not ten leagues from Harrenhal, Rhaegar fell upon Lyanna Stark of Winterfell, and carried her off, lighting a fire that would consume his house and kin and all those he loved". So it's not 50 leagues, and not even 20, but less than 10 or approximately 10, and that's 30-35 miles from Harrenhal.

Map in the end of this post.

In radius of 30-35 miles from Harrenhal there is Rushing Falls on western side of lake, and ruins of Whitewalls on eastern side of lake.

Whitewalls are not on any map, because the castle was destroyed by Targaryens after Second Rebellion of Blackfyres. Though where the castle was located we can get an overview from third novel from Dunk & Egg series, The Mystery Knight.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Whitewalls

"The castle was the site of the wedding tourney at Whitewalls in 211 AC. While journeying from Stoney Sept to the kingsroad, Ser Duncan the Tall and Prince Aegon Targaryen took Ned's ferry across the Gods Eye to attend the festivities. The Second Blackfyre Rebellion failed at the tourney, and Lord Ambrose Butterwell forfeited Whitewalls to the Iron Throne. Lord Brynden Rivers, Hand of the King to Aerys I Targaryen, ordered the castle pulled apart and its earth salted.^[1] "

 

If they were traveling from Stoney Sept, then they arrived to western shore of God's Eye, there they were chased away from unnamed inn (which probably was the same inn where Hot Pie is currently staying), and next day crossed the lake on a ferry to Whitewalls.

 

Aside from Rushing Falls, that unnamed inn, and ruines of Whitewalls, there's absolutely nothing else, not ten leagues from Harrenhal. Kingsroad also could be in that radius, though if Lyanna was going to Riverrun, she was supposed to go to River Road after Darry castle. If Rhaegar met her on Kingsroad near God's Eye, then she was traveling to King's Landing, or to God's Eye. The island in the middle of God's Eye is further from Harrenhal than 10 leagues. So that leaves either Rushing Falls or Whitewalls.

https://storage.googleapis.com/junglecms-wp-bucket/1/2017/09/godseey.png

 

P.S. Haven't you thought that "ten leagues from Harrenhal" may have been given not by GRRM, but rather by his co-authors of that book, and that GRRM himself didn't gave any specifications about where exactly Lyanna was kidnapped?

[divica]

3 hours ago, Lady Dacey said:

I think our black brother is a young Yoren. He was a recruiter for thirty years... It was his duty to get people from around the realm to go to the Wall. We only see him geting "the pick of the dungeons", but we can see that he would also try and convince knights and men at arms to join, like Jon wants Daeron to do. 

Yoren tells Arya he's been taking man to the Wall through the kings road for 30 years 

So he would have been a young recruiter by the year of the false spring. 

Actually that makes a TON of sense.

How else could mance have learned so many songs and tasted the dornish wife?

Besides, he could have learned a lot of swordmanship visiting the lords of the 7 kingdoms and it would make him much wiser than a wildling raised at the wall. For example how could he have learned to infiltrate parties as a singer...

How ever isn t mance too big to be the knight of the laughing tree? I don t think he is involved in that...

[Alexis-something-Rose]

3 hours ago, Lady Dacey said:

I think our black brother is a young Yoren. He was a recruiter for thirty years... It was his duty to get people from around the realm to go to the Wall. We only see him geting "the pick of the dungeons", but we can see that he would also try and convince knights and men at arms to join, like Jon wants Daeron to do. 

Yoren tells Arya he's been taking man to the Wall through the kings road for 30 years 

I tent to stop short at Yoren because of his description in the books and Jon's own reaction to seeing him, like his ideals about the Night's Watch get sucked right out of him before he even arrives at Castle Black. Sansa feels sorry for Jon when she sees Yoren because she thought all the men of the Night's Watch were like Benjen. Tyrion describes him as stooped and sinister. 

We don't know what Yoren looked like in 281 and 15 years later he may not have looked the same, people do change. Maybe he bathed and washed his clothes more frequently and didn't have the twisted shoulders. 

But I think for a tourney that has all these great lords, the crown prince there, it's not someone like Yoren or bloody Mance Rayder who may or may not have been born of a wildling mother you want.

I think for a tourney of this magnitude, you want, but someone like Denys Mallister instead who is highborn, well-spoken, a knight, someone who in his youth entered the lists. He's from the riverlands and he might have known a lot of the people who were attending the tourney. 

I'd be really surprised if Yoren or Mance were anywhere near that tourney. Yoren is dead, so we won't be finding out anything from him.