Harrenhall Through A Little Crannogman’s Eyes

[Curled Finger]

5 minutes ago, Lady Dacey said:

That's a good proposition I think. I'll go back to the books and read Meera's tale again. 

I do think we should take into account that Jojen is so startled that Ned never told Bran the story. There are so many question... while we can come up with several theories of why Ned chose not to share this story with his kids, I think we should also try and elaborate about just why Jojen thinks Bran should have heard it already. Does he know how important the tourney was to the history of th 7K? Is there something about the story that Ned may think is unsuitable for kids but Howland Reed didn't think so? Did Jojen believe it was important for Bran to know the story, or he just found it curious that his friend didn't know? The Reed kids know more about Harrenhall (Meera knows Lyanna was crowned QOLAB) but they don't disclose more information to Bran. Why is that? 

I have more questions than theories or information, sorry.

Yes Yes Yes!   This story was committed to Meera Reed's memory.  And Jojen is incredulous at Bran's ignorance of the tale.  There is some very interesting dialogue between Jojen, Meera and Bran right at the beginning of the story.   Interested to see what you think of this if anything at all.  

The little Crannogman's impressions are vital to something, many things maybe.  That's why I'm trying to get into a CM's mind here.   Our little traveler as well as Meera and Jojen's recount.  

Questions are how we figure it all out when we don't have a smoking gun, I mean sword!   Keep those questions coming Lady! 

[Curled Finger]

30 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

Straight up, I think Hoster Tully felt threatened by Walder Frey. I have a lot of thoughts on what Hoster and Rickard were doing, but that goes beyond the scope of your thread. 

We don't really know that, though. Northmen don't really have knights, so we assumed they don't participate in tourneys. And it seems Rickard Stark may have been a knight. Jaime says that the gold from Rickard's spurs melted when he was being set on fire by Aerys.

Harwin, Jory and Alyn entered the lists during the Hand's tourney even though none of them were knights and only Alyn aspired to become one. Robb and Jon both trained with lance. 

Harys Hornwood, likely. Mermen could be Wyman and both his sons. Wyman says he used to ride in the lists before he became morbidly fat and White Harbor isn't really all that far from Harrenhal (relatively to other places). Both Wylis and Wendell are older than Catelyn according to her. I guess they could have both been in their early twenties when Harrenhal rolled around.

I think Roose Bolton and Domeric would have been there even though neither is named.

No worries about discounting anything, and I have given Harrenhal a lot of thought because it drives me crazy when I read that Aerys sent Rhaegar after the KotLT right after they were done jousting because they essentially galloped away from the tourney ground, when that's completely false. It's something that has been perpetuated in a lot of speculations which . . . anyway . . .

I live for wild speculation!   Bring It On!  

[Curled Finger]

14 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

@Widow's Watch was super fast with the list.   I will concentrate on conspiracies then.   This is already feeling like a team of detectives.  

[Springwatch]

13 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

 Then we get a remarkable accounting of the men a maid with laughing purple eyes dances with: a White Sword, a Red Snake, the Lord of Griffins and finally the Quiet Wolf after the Wild Wolf speaks with her.

I don't really want the Red Snake to be Oberyn (though I admit he could be).

Firstly because a tourney isn't really his scene. Ned said that war shouldn't be made into a game, and I think Oberyn takes violence seriously in a similar way. Actually Oberyn is famous for killing his victims and using poisoned weapons to do it - you can't get more serious than that. And he's a rule-breaker; his honour is flexible. Knightly games wouldn't interest him at all.

But mainly, the CM is using visual images to name his characters, and 'Red Viper' is a nickname, a verbal. IIRC, Oberyn uses the scorpion to represent himself (Joff's scorpion brooch), as well as the sun sigil of Dorne.

So I'm thinking the Red Snake is the red dragon of the Targs. Yes, no wings, which is slightly unfair of our storyteller, but it's made plain that the storyteller is hiding details from us already. And we've come pretty close to 'snake' and 'dragon' being used interchangeably - the dragons are serpentine, Viserys is the shadow of a snake, Summer's vision was of a fiery snake.

No wings makes me think 'Aerys', because Aerys was a rotten dragon. Like Viserys, nothing about him says 'Winged Knight'.

Therefore: Aerys danced with Ashara.

[Curled Finger]

1 hour ago, Widow's Watch said:

Maybe because it's not their place to tell? When Bran asked Meera if the crannogman met the green men, she tells him he did, but it's not her story to tell. So I think going from there, perhaps Meera didn't feel it was her place to reveal anything to Bran especially since Ned didn't tell him anything about Harrenhal. 

Notes and spreadsheets.

You get a little blue bowing emoji guy for your fast work!  "Maybe not their place to tell..."  Wow, you sure took a curve i didn't see coming.   Yes, I think the green men are for later, perhaps not really crucial to the 1st part of the story.   Although the little CM does suppose the green men may have been involved in restoring his honor.  Hmm..maybe that's completely backward and the CM had foreknowledge going into this tourney about events to come.  Makes the list of notables even more notable in my book!  I wonder if this line of thinking gets to be my 1st trip down a rabbit hole in this discussion?   Well done Widow's Watch.  

[Curled Finger]

8 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

I don't really want the Red Snake to be Oberyn (though I admit he could be).

Firstly because a tourney isn't really his scene. Ned said that war shouldn't be made into a game, and I think Oberyn takes violence seriously in a similar way. Actually Oberyn is famous for killing his victims and using poisoned weapons to do it - you can't get more serious than that. And he's a rule-breaker; his honour is flexible. Knightly games wouldn't interest him at all.

But mainly, the CM is using visual images to name his characters, and 'Red Viper' is a nickname, a verbal. IIRC, Oberyn uses the scorpion to represent himself (Joff's scorpion brooch), as well as the sun sigil of Dorne.

So I'm thinking the Red Snake is the red dragon of the Targs. Yes, no wings, which is slightly unfair of our storyteller, but it's made plain that the storyteller is hiding details from us already. And we've come pretty close to 'snake' and 'dragon' being used interchangeably - the dragons are serpentine, Viserys is the shadow of a snake, Summer's vision was of a fiery snake.

No wings makes me think 'Aerys', because Aerys was a rotten dragon. Like Viserys, nothing about him says 'Winged Knight'.

Therefore: Aerys danced with Ashara.

Springwatch, how nice to see you again.  Let's work this out.   Oberyn may have enjoyed the tourney scene as more of a showplace for his exquisitely unique skill.   The Dornish do fight very differently.   If I throw a tourney you bet I will try to get as many types of fighting on display as possible.   Where is a good pit fighter when you need one?   

Oh Holy Cow--I didn't get the full scope of your post until after the 2nd read!   Wow!  There is an old theory supposing Aerys may have taken liberties with far more ladies than Joanna Lannister.  Yikes, your Red Snake is creepy, but may be a clue.   Do we know at what point Aerys is supposed to have sworn off other women?  

[Mon ami]

Perhaps the crannogman made sure to elaborate on Ashara because she became important after the tournament.  Important like the mother of Jon Snow. 

Howland conveyed his wonder and awe to his children with the story.  The little crannogman was like a country boy in the big city for the first time.  That's how I interpret his focus on the pageantry.

It's too strong of an assumption to think Rhaegar was trying to undermine his father.  The kingdom was stable and the economy was doing great.  Nobody wants to cause problems when business is good.  I don't know, maybe Rhaegar was indeed the fool that he was.  Because that's what he would be, a classic fool, if he was trying to make a disturbance while the kingdom was enjoying a period of prosperity.  People couldn't give a damn what Aerys did at the Red Keep as long as the gold kept flowing and good weather prevailed. 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

27 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

You get a little blue bowing emoji guy for your fast work!  "Maybe not their place to tell..."  Wow, you sure took a curve i didn't see coming.

What Meera tells Bran about it not being her place to tell the crannogman's story with the green man is something that's echoed by Barristan when Dany asks him about Elia and Rhaegar's relationship. He tells her it's not for him to tell what was in her brother's heart, but then Barristan becomes a POV character and we know exactly what he thinks.

28 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Yes, I think the green men are for later, perhaps not really crucial to the 1st part of the story.

I agree men and the Isle of Faces are likely waiting in the wings for the Long Night to come. And I think our MIA crannogman will be coming out of his bogs shortly. 

33 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Although the little CM does suppose the green men may have been involved in restoring his honor. 

It's not the crannogman who supposes that. It's Bran. All the crannogman does is pray toward the Isle of Faces. And Meera says perhaps, and at the end, she says his prayers were answered, be it by the green men or the old gods or the children of the forest, no one knows.

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

1 hour ago, Springwatch said:

I don't really want the Red Snake to be Oberyn (though I admit he could be).

Firstly because a tourney isn't really his scene. Ned said that war shouldn't be made into a game, and I think Oberyn takes violence seriously in a similar way. Actually Oberyn is famous for killing his victims and using poisoned weapons to do it - you can't get more serious than that. And he's a rule-breaker; his honour is flexible. Knightly games wouldn't interest him at all

He does compete in tourneys though. He knocked Willas Tyrell from his horse in a tourney.

Sansa I, SoS

Quote

"He was hurt as a squire, riding in his first tourney," Margaery confided. "His horse fell and crushed his leg."

"That snake of a Dornishman was to blame, that Oberyn Martell. And his maester as well."

He's even called a snake in the story. I'm sticking with Oberyn as the red snake. 

[Curled Finger]

10 minutes ago, Mon ami said:

Perhaps the crannogman made sure to elaborate on Ashara because she became important after the tournament.  Important like the mother of Jon Snow. 

Howland conveyed his wonder and awe to his children with the story.  The little crannogman was like a country boy in the big city for the first time.  That's how I interpret his focus on the pageantry.

It's too strong of an assumption to think Rhaegar was trying to undermine his father.  The kingdom was stable and the economy was doing great.  Nobody wants to cause problems when business is good.  I don't know, maybe Rhaegar was indeed the fool that he was.  Because that's what he would be, a classic fool, if he was trying to make a disturbance while the kingdom was enjoying a period of prosperity.  People couldn't give a damn what Aerys did at the Red Keep as long as the gold kept flowing and good weather prevailed. 

Mon ami, welcome to the discussion.   You seem to get it--this is about the CM's wonder and impression.  Yes absolutely our attention is drawn to Ashara Dayne, but let's not forget Robert Baratheon, Rhaegar, Aerys and the Kings Guard all with multiple mentions in the 1st part of the tale.  What is Ashara's importance?  I will add your possibility that we may be directed to the dance with Ned and a potential love affair to the list of possibilities.   

Aerys had become a dangerous man by the time the tournament was held.  The dissension between he and Tywin seems to be of great importance in this story.  Rhaegar was loved, but his father was a bad king.  I liken it a bit to current politics in the US now.  We are making money, but our leader needs a muzzle.  Keep in mind that Tywin is credited for the prosperity during Aerys' reign.  Aerys drove his greatest asset away.  It's certain that things began to unravel and that may have been reflected in Aery's paranoia.  

It is a rumor that Rhaegar funded the tourney as a cover to meet with his young contemporaries.  By the few accounts we have it, particularly his parting words to Jamie upon Rhaegar's leaving for war (I will explain.   There will be change. <paraphrase>), we are led to believe he had an active if failed plan for the rule of the realm.   It's safe to keep in mind that at least 4 if not 6 of the kingdoms were involved in some conspiracy or another at this time.   

Thanks for jumping in.   Looking forward to your more of your thoughts here. 

[Curled Finger]

6 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

What Meera tells Bran about it not being her place to tell the crannogman's story with the green man is something that's echoed by Barristan when Dany asks him about Elia and Rhaegar's relationship. He tells her it's not for him to tell what was in her brother's heart, but then Barristan becomes a POV character and we know exactly what he thinks.

I agree men and the Isle of Faces are likely waiting in the wings for the Long Night to come. And I think our MIA crannogman will be coming out of his bogs shortly. 

It's not the crannogman who supposes that. It's Bran. All the crannogman does is pray toward the Isle of Faces. And Meera says perhaps, and at the end, she says his prayers were answered, be it by the green men or the old gods or the children of the forest, no one knows.

Oh I can't wait to see what a little Crannogman might actually have to say about this himself.   Get hype!  I have this little quote I will try to place for you.   Not to argue or challenge you, but because I was unable to get the entire story out of the search of ice and fire, got impatient and pulled it from a web page.   Tell me if this corresponds with what you have? 

And so the little crannogman's prayer was answered...by the green men, or the old gods, or the children of the forest, who can say?

If this is the same as your own quote base, I wonder if Miss Meera is leading us herself? 

[LynnS]

2 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

•   Reveal hidden contents

   

  • Ned, Brandon, Lyanna, Benjen
  • Howland Reed
  • Aerys, Rhaegar, Elia
  • Jaime, Arthur Dayne, Barristan Selmy, Oswell Whent, Gerold Hightower, Jon Darry, Lewyn Martell
  • Robert B., Richard Lonmouth
  • Jon Connington
  • Mace Tyrell
  • Ashara
  • Oberyn Martell
  • Jon Arryn, Bronze Yohn, Eon Hunter
  • The Frey, Blount and Haigh knights

   

  It's not a spoiler, but I'll just have them under the spoiler tag.

A brother from the Night's Watch -- possibly Mance Rayder

[Curled Finger]

1 minute ago, LynnS said:

A brother from the Night's Watch -- possibly Mance Rayder

Yah you just keep adding fuel to my conspiracy fire.   Wouldn't that be delicious? 

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

31 minutes ago, Mon ami said:

Perhaps the crannogman made sure to elaborate on Ashara because she became important after the tournament.  Important like the mother of Jon Snow. 

This is a good point. The Crannogman is telling the story retroactively. He would focus on the people and events of importance not just at the time, but of the events that would happen soon following. Which makes me even more curious on Mr. Lonmouth.

[Springwatch]

20 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

He does compete in tourneys though. He knocked Willas Tyrell from his horse in a tourney.

Sansa I, SoS

He's even called a snake in the story. I'm sticking with Oberyn as the red snake. 

It's a good point - but even so, I don't reckon Oberyn was a regular on on the tourney circuit. All that show-off gallantry, and the ladies' favours, and the general knightly hypocrisy - it's just not his style. Besides, with his Red Viper history added to his maiming of the Tyrell heir, I don't suppose he'd be very welcome at any more jousts. (Although I'm not quite sure what order all these events came in.)

[Curled Finger]

4 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

This is a good point. The Crannogman is telling the story retroactively. He would focus on the people and events of importance not just at the time, but of the events that would happen soon following. Which makes me even more curious on Mr. Lonmouth.

How about because out little Cranngoman fell in love with the maid with dancing purple eyes himself?  Where are the symbolism people?   Surely this long description of her means something?   As you say he tells the story after many facts including Robert's Rebellion.   The things Meera tells Bran about were very important to the person who told her the story.  Including the Knight of Skulls and Kisses.  

[Alexis-something-Rose]

14 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Oh I can't wait to see what a little Crannogman might actually have to say about this himself.   Get hype!  I have this little quote I will try to place for you.   Not to argue or challenge you, but because I was unable to get the entire story out of the search of ice and fire, got impatient and pulled it from a web page.   Tell me if this corresponds with what you have? 

And so the little crannogman's prayer was answered...by the green men, or the old gods, or the children of the forest, who can say?

If this is the same as your own quote base, I wonder if Miss Meera is leading us herself? 

Yes, it does. 

Here's the full quote;

Quote

"It was the little crannogman, I bet."
"No one knew," said Meera, "but the mystery knight was short of stature, and clad in ill-fitting armor made up of bits and pieces. The device upon his shield was a heart tree of the old gods, a white weirwood with a laughing red face."
"Maybe he came from the Isle of Faces," said Bran. "Was he green?" In Old Nan's stories, the guardians had dark green skin and leaves instead of hair. Sometimes they had antlers too, but Bran didn't see how the mystery knight could have worn a helm if he had antlers. "I bet the old gods sent him."
"Perhaps they did. The mystery knight dipped his lance before the king and rode to the end of the lists, where the five champions had their pavilions. You know the three he challenged."
"The porcupine knight, the pitchfork knight, and the knight of the twin towers." Bran had heard enough stories to know that. "He was the little crannogman, I told you."
"Whoever he was, the old gods gave strength to his arm. The porcupine knight fell first, then the pitchfork knight, and lastly the knight of the two towers. None were well loved, so the common folk cheered lustily for the Knight of the Laughing Tree, as the new champion soon was called. When his fallen foes sought to ransom horse and armor, the Knight of the Laughing Tree spoke in a booming voice through his helm saying, 'Teach your squires honor, that shall be ransom enough.' Once the defeated knights chastised their squires sharply, their horses and armor were returned. And so the little crannogman's prayer was answered . . . by the green men, or the old gods, or the children of the forest, who can say?" (Bran II, ASOS 24)

I don't mind being challenged. There are a lot of different interpretations of the text. 

[Curled Finger]

1 minute ago, Widow's Watch said:

Yes, it does. 

Here's the full quote;

I don't mind being challenged. There are a lot of different interpretations of the text. 

Thanks so much for the quote.   I enjoy a good argument, too, particularly with all those imaginative interpretations.   I either haven't really misspoken yet or we are just focused on solving the mystery right now.   Either way, your contributions are so appreciated here.  

[Alexis-something-Rose]

17 minutes ago, LynnS said:

A brother from the Night's Watch -- possibly Mance Rayder

Yes, I forgot to put him on my list. I thought of Mance Rayder, but I think it might have been someone with a much "higher" standing, as in a House name and a knight. Mance is neither. But who knows.

[Lady Dacey]

31 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

He does compete in tourneys though. He knocked Willas Tyrell from his horse in a tourney.

Sansa I, SoS

He's even called a snake in the story. I'm sticking with Oberyn as the red snake. 

Oberyn was a knight! 

Spoiler

TWOW, Arianne I

The Bastard of Godsgrace was one of Dorne's finest swords as well, as might be expected from one who had been Prince Oberyn's squire and had received his knighthood from the Red Viper himself.

And probably a specially good one!