Harrenhall Through A Little Crannogman’s Eyes

[Curled Finger]

14 minutes ago, divica said:

If we look at this

It certainly seems like a group of people that rhaegar could persuade to kidnapp Lyanna because he believed he needed to do it to break a secret rebelion. And if the dornish KG was presente in this party it is even more believable.

And why would you think that varys is on rhaegar's side when varys ruined his harrenhall plan? I think you might suppose he was on aerys side at the time, but never rhaegar's. Which is even weirder if he is really worried about the smallfolk... But this event might be what changed him... It all depends if he is a blackfyre supporter or not.

And him manipulating rhaegar with profecy would be beautiful. But I think it is more likely that rhaegar visited the gosht of harrenhall and she gave him a new profecy that changed everything...

 

You've caused me to get my investigative tools out.   Looking at the map, do you know what appears to be "not 10 leagues" from Harrenhal?  The Isle of Faces.   If this is where Rhaegar went and I have no information strictly prohibiting (or confirming!) it, something much bigger was going on with him.  We may have been really underestimating Varys.  

[Curled Finger]

51 minutes ago, Megorova said:

I think that there was conspiracy of Blackfyres unfolding at the same time as that Tournament.

Last what we know about Blackfyres is that they seemingly gave up after War of Ninepenny Kings. And now we have some sort of longplanned conspiracy of Varys and Illyrio, and Young Griff is obviously their project. Though Varys arrived to Westeros many years ago, some time prior Robert's Rebellion. So if Varys is spy or agent of Blackfyres (or maybe even a Blackfyre himself), then he infiltrated court of Targaryens, all those years ago, with a purpose to overthrow their regime.

So many out of those people, that GRRM has pointed out to readers, those attendants of Tournament at Harrenhal, were supporters of Blackfyres. So when Young Griff and Golden Company will arrive to Westeros, descendants of those people will join him.

Or because she is Meera's and Jojen's mother. And after events at Tower of Joy, where Ashara Dayne was also present, Howland Reed took her with him to the Neck, where later they married.

The thing is, at that Tournament Howland just met Ned Stark, so why would he be watching like a hawk, just some girl with whom Ned danced? Did Howland knew at that moment that Ned fell in love with Ashara? Was Howland so observant that he immediately realised, that the person whom he just met (Ned) fell in love with that girl? Or did Ned himself shared with Howland, person whom he just met, that he fell in love just now with this girl, and that was the reason why Howland was watching every move of that girl? Even if it was like that, prior Ned danced with her, Howland was watching her all evening, noticing all people with whom she danced.

The idea that Howland was describing to his children beauty of Ashara Dayne, because Ned Stark fell in love with her at that event, is ridiculous. Howland himself fell in love with her, and that's the reason why he was telling this story to his children. Because it's a story about how their parents met. Because their mother Jyana Reed is actually Ashara Dayne.

She is their mother. I'm 90% sure of it.

I thought that forever until the conspiracy/mata hari idea popped into my head a couple of days ago.   I do appreciate the support though.  Now this tale has taken me in 3 different directions.   It's got to mean more than one thing!

[aryagonnakill#2]

7 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Not if Elia and Oberyn were complicit in Rhaegar's plan.  They may not see this "smoke and mirrors" of crowning Lyanna QoL&B as any more than fulfilling that part of the plan.   Barristan lost that final contest with Rhaegar--I think he fell from his horse or dropped his weapon.  It's been discussed in other places that Rhaegar wasn't that great a jouster. It's unlikely Selmy would throw a match so perhaps his or even Rhaegar's advancement was unforeseen.   Perhaps the plan was for Oberyn or Arthur or some other contestant to crown Lyanna?   Perhaps that crowning wasn't intended at all, but an effort to force the Storm Lord into appreciating what he had in his betrothed and Elia was aware of the statement her husband was attempting to make?   Our little Crannogman never mentions Lyanna and Robert together.  

Barristan refers to him as good, not great.  I believe the whole point of Mormonts tourney win, other than his banishment was to show that in this story, the love of a woman can put you over the top.  Rhaegar had to win to crown Lyanna and be her equal, because she didn't loose, he couldn't.

[Curled Finger]

44 minutes ago, divica said:

To be in accordance with my previous post.

What if rhaegar did kdnap Lyanna in order to break the aliance between starks-tullys-baratheon-arryn(?) and hid Lyanna in the ToJ? however, along the way they fel in love and bla bla bla

It becomes not a den of conspiracies but a tragic love story.  

[divica]

7 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

You've caused me to get my investigative tools out.   Looking at the map, do you know what appears to be "not 10 leagues" from Harrenhal?  The Isle of Faces.   If this is where Rhaegar went and I have no information strictly prohibiting (or confirming!) it, something much bigger was going on with him.  We may have been really underestimating Varys.  

That is interesting. Even more because howland reed was also there for a time...

But high heart isn t far away either and rhaegar likes his profecies.

[divica]

3 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

It becomes not a den of conspiracies but a tragic love story.  

I think that whatever happened before, after rhaegar kidnapened Lyanna it becomes a very sad love story...

Who could have thought that brandon and aerys would do what they did? If aerys sent brandon to the Wall the rebellion would have been broken!

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

17 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

The story of the Knight of the Laughing Tree is a staple mystery in the ASOIAF universe.    Meera Reed tells of an unnamed little Crannogman who traveled to The Gods Eye and stayed on the Isle of Faces throughout the winter.   That could be years on Westeros.   Once spring arrives the man opts to leave the Isle and sees all manner of color and lights at Harrenhall.  It’s clear this man is not familiar with the region he’s visiting but he is remarkably familiar with sigils and some key figures.  We hear a short list of stars at this tournament given to defend the daughter of Whent’s title of Queen of Love and Beauty.   It is a grand affair and our traveler is drawn to the excitement. 

Though this story we are told of the king and dragon prince, the White Swords and their new brother, the Storm Lord and Rose Lord.   Curiously, the Crannogman notes that the great lion of the Rock is not in attendance, but many of his knights and bannermen are there.   He notes the daughter of the castle, her 4 brothers and her uncle, a famous White Sword who are her champions in the tournament.  He mentions Elia Martell and her dozen ladies in waiting.   He notes all 4 of his wolf companions, the she wolf, wild wolf, quiet wolf and pup.   He mentions their bannermen, Barrowdown men, moose, bears and mermen.  He tells about the Dragon Prince singing a song so sad it makes the fierce she wolf sniffle and how she turns a cup of wine over her pup brother’s head when he laughs at her.   A black brother appeals to the knights to join his order.  The Storm King and Knight of Skulls and Kisses have a wine cup war.  Then we get a remarkable accounting of the men a maid with laughing purple eyes dances with: a White Sword, a Red Snake, the Lord of Griffins and finally the Quiet Wolf after the Wild Wolf speaks with her. 

We can figure out who the people the Crannogman notes are.  Aerys, Rhaegar, the Kings Guard, Jamie, Robert Baratheon and Mace Tyrell.   He knows Tywin has had a disagreement with the king and that is his reason for not attending.  Odd that bannermen and knights show up despite the great lion’s absence. We know at least 1 of  Elia's ladies, Ashara Dayne.  We know who the wolves are as well as their bannermen.  Richard Lonmouth and Robert Baratheon are drinking each other under the table.  Then we get the most peculiar accounting of Ashara Dayne’s dancing partners.  A White Sword could have been any of the Kings Guard except Jamie.  The Red Snake is Oberyn Martell, the Lord of Griffins is Jon Connington and then wolves again.   Of the hundreds of people present I wonder why these specific people stood out to the Crannogman to the extent he would memorize them and recount each of them to his children years later. 

I always considered the story to hold more than 1 clue to the soon to unfold events.  Still it’s just odd he homes in on 1 lady and her dance partners of all the people dancing.  She was a legendary beauty, even Barristan attests to that.   It is possible the Crannogman was simply taken with the maiden with the laughing purple eyes?  It was rumored that the Tourney was funded by Rhaegar and was intended to address the problems with the realm with the leaders of the kingdoms.   The North, Riverlands, Westerlands, Dorne, Stormlands and Reach are all represented.   These are presumably the future movers and shakers Rhaegar hopes to enlist to his cause.  Is there some clue in the list of people mentioned or is it just Ashara’s dancing partners?  It is peculiar that Robert B is mentioned twice, but doesn’t dance with Ashara (and isn’t mentioned with Lyanna).   He is noted with the Lord of Roses and a hard drinking Knight.   Bizarre.  I think it’s possible if not probable that there was a conspiracy at play that was unable to find its light due to Aerys’ attendance.   Did Ashara get some information from her White Sword that she then passed to Oberyn and some answer he gave was then given to Jon Connington?

It is unlikely that Barristan Selmy would have participated in an open rebellion against his king.  He is nothing if not loyal.   Whent?  Surely he was aware of the premise at play.   Arthur Dayne, Lewyn Martell, Jon Connington, Richard Lonmouth ditto.  Could Tywin have been aware of some dissention between Aerys and Rhaegar and sent his spies to hear Rhaegar’s plan?   Could Rickard Stark have sent all his children to hear Rhaegar out?   We see Howland Reed sent his children to act in his stead with Bran at Winterfell—maybe that’s how the North works?  Reclusive Dorne has a large presence at this event—why? Is it a case of star struck/love struck awed northman or a conspiracy?  Is there something to the order these people are mentioned?  Is there more than 1 conspiracy in play?  Let’s figure it out. 

 

This is basic the tale of how the Reeds became close friends to the Starks  . The Ashara  and Eddard's dancing , Rhaegar singing and Robert's drinking bout with Lonmouth are basically side stories interesting , but not that important to this story .

1. Howland was probably on a walkabout to the isle of the Faces , when he comes to Harrenhal .

2. He get accosted by , the Frey's banner men squires, people whom his house has problems with .

3. He was rescued by Lyanna Stark .

4. He was introduced to the rest of the Starks and the rest of the north men .

5. They give him the respect he deserves .

6. Howland wants revenge , Lyanna ,Eddard and Benjen helps .

7.Afraid of looking like a fool , he declines their help , but he prays to the old gods for revenge .

8. A  mysterious knight appears at the tourney , and challenges the Frey's banners kinghts besting them all . IN lieu of ransom , he / she has the losers to chastise their squires .

THAT IS THE STORY

[Curled Finger]

10 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

I have to take that back actually, lol.  TKOTLT had not yet made her appearance, so Rhaegar would not have been seeking out Lyanna at that time.

I believe that is simply a nod to who Robert was, and in combination with how Lyanna cried when Rhaegar played the harp it shows why she made her decision to leave with him.  I highly doubt he was being included in a conspiracy.  At the very least if he was being included it would've been when he was sober, not during a drinking contest.  I picture this

Lonmouth whispering "Say, what are your feelings on Aerys?"

Robert yelling "Aerys! Love the guy!"  "I've banged tons of wenches while Aerys has been king, I dare say Aerys has the best wenches!" lol, that last part was a political joke Americans will get.  But the point is you don't discuss treason in a drinking contest.

I believe the fact that Rickard, Tywin, Hoster, and Jon were not there says that they were the conspirators.  Had Jon Aryn, and Lyanna's family rebelled once Lyanna was Roberts wife, he likely would've sided with them, and his habits were I think widely known, Lyanna knew of his bastard-Mya.

@divica I always thought that Varys warning Aerys was because Aerys was the crazy guy, and Rhaegar up until running off with Lyanna was the sane one.  He would've assumed it would be easier to put the Blackfyres in power under Aerys than under Rhaegar.  I Dare say he was right.  Had Rhaegar become king I doubt Rickard would've been that mad he ran off with his daughter, and in any event Rhaegar probably wouldn't have burnt a man for the crime of answering a summons, then demanded the heads of two people who were practically Jon Aryns sons, from Jon Aryn. People like to say Jon started the rebellion when he called his banners, but come on who is going to kill their own children?

I believe Varys comments to Kevan in the epilogue of Dance spells this out for us.  He kills Kevan to elevate Cersei, because Cersei is the incompetent leader, and it will be easier for Aegon to take over under Cersei than under Kevan.  Same thing he did with Rhaegar and Aerys.

As to the red snake, I looked through the known house symbols and there is no such sigil.  It is strange that Howland refers to everyone else by their sigils, but then again Oberyn is referred to as the Red Viper, so that seems to be a dead match.

I really don't know what to think about Ashara.  If she was supposed to be the Reeds parents then they should be unusually tall for Crannogmen, or something should stick out as any sort of clue, and if your going to go out on a limb like that there has to be some sort of evidence for it.  My best guess is that Ashara told Ned where Lyanna was at the TOJ, so she had a part to play in the end of the revolution.  It is even possible the "they found him" refers to Howland and Ashara, though a simple servant is probably more likely.

A well loved expression in my industry of very macho people is "don't back up".   Don't do it Arya--your distraction idea works just as well before as after the KotLT incident.   It would be a distraction for different reasons, but it still works to get a feel for Robert's politics or perhaps feelings about Lyanna.  Then again, it could be just as you say, to illustrate what a lousy husband Robert would have made in contrast to Rhaegar.  Sadly, I get your joke.   As I say, we really need a muzzle.  

I think there was more than one conspiracy going on here.  If the North/Riverlands/Vale and Stormlands were 1 front, Rhaegar and Dorne, possibly The Reach, were another.  I almost feel like Dorne is so good at playing things close to the vest we may never know what their conspiracy was exactly.  I've usually got wicked tunnel vision so it's sort of refreshing to be open to so many ideas here.  This Blackfyre spin isn't 1 I considered before about a half hour ago.  If frickin Little Finger can come up with all the intrigue and chaos and manage to advance his agenda why wouldn't Varys be capable of the same? 

I'm rethinking Ashara Dayne a great deal these days.  I don't know what to make of her either, though I enjoyed your use of the term revolution.  I don't know how Planetos genetics work so I can't say how a child of a Dayne and Reed would appear.  But I am beginning to understand what spies like Dayne and Reed would look like.  Was Ashara dishonored that night as Barristan feels or does he only think this and every move she made was planned?  

[Alexis-something-Rose]

I don't Rickard is more or less ambitious than some of the characters we have met in the story. But I must be the only person who thinks that he was beginning to prepare the north for the Long Night. There's more to this than just him trying to get his children ahead.

[Curled Finger]

23 minutes ago, divica said:

That is interesting. Even more because howland reed was also there for a time...

But high heart isn t far away either and rhaegar likes his profecies.

High Heart is more like roughly 150 miles from Harrenhal, so I think we have a winner in the Isle of Faces.  Perhaps prophecy is the Green Men's thing? 

[Curled Finger]

31 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

Barristan refers to him as good, not great.  I believe the whole point of Mormonts tourney win, other than his banishment was to show that in this story, the love of a woman can put you over the top.  Rhaegar had to win to crown Lyanna and be her equal, because she didn't loose, he couldn't.

You romantic!  That's lovely--I would sniffle if you told that story with a harp! 

[Curled Finger]

16 minutes ago, BRANDON GREYSTARK said:

This is basic the tale of how the Reeds became close friends to the Starks  . The Ashara  and Eddard's dancing , Rhaegar singing and Robert's drinking bout with Lonmouth are basically side stories interesting , but not that important to this story .

1. Howland was probably on a walkabout to the isle of the Faces , when he comes to Harrenhal .

2. He get accosted by , the Frey's banner men squires, people whom his house has problems with .

3. He was rescued by Lyanna Stark .

4. He was introduced to the rest of the Starks and the rest of the north men .

5. They give him the respect he deserves .

6. Howland wants revenge , Lyanna ,Eddard and Benjen helps .

7.Afraid of looking like a fool , he declines their help , but he prays to the old gods for revenge .

8. A  mysterious knight appears at the tourney , and challenges the Frey's banners kinghts besting them all . IN lieu of ransom , he / she has the losers to chastise their squires .

THAT IS THE STORY

That's sure supposed to be the story, isn't it?   Thank you for bringing some sobering pragmatism into the conversation.   I find that very enlightening that you don't mention the crowning of the QoL&B or a secret affair.   That's actually refreshing, too.    

[Megorova]

2 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

There is as much love between Elia and Oberyn as our similarly fated Ned and Lyanna. 

Or Jaime and Cersei, or Viserys and Daenerys.

ADWD, Tyrion II.

Quote

Viserys lusted for his father’s throne, but he lusted for Daenerys too, and was loath to give her up. The night before the princess wed he tried to steal into her bed, insisting that if he could not have her hand, he would claim her maidenhead. Had I not taken the precaution of posting guards upon her door, Viserys might have undone years of planning.

And one more hint that Oberyn could have been in an incestuos relationship with his siblings:

AFFC, The Queenmaker.

Quote

“My uncle brought me here, with Tyene and Sarella.” The memory made Arianne smile. “He caught some vipers and showed Tyene the safest way to milk them for their venom. Sarella turned over rocks, brushed sand off the mosaics, and wanted to know everything there was to know about the people who had lived here.”

“And what did you do, princess?” asked Spotted Sylva.

I sat beside the well and pretended that some robber knight had brought me here to have his way with me, she thought, a tall hard man with black eyes and a widow’s peak. The memory made her uneasy. “I dreamed,” she said, “and when the sun went down I sat cross-legged at my uncle’s feet and begged him for a story.”

Oberyn was the one who brought her there, he was a knight, and he had widows peak and black eyes.

Quote

The princeling removed his helm. Beneath, his face was lined and saturnine, with thin arched brows above large eyes as black and shiny as pools of coal oil. Only a few streaks of silver marred the lustrous black hair that receded from his brow in a widow’s peak as sharply pointed as his nose.

GRRM likes to repeat certain plots in his books. 

There was another uncle, that gave to his niece a lesson of sexual education - Daemon and Rhaenyra Targaryen.

"According to the accounts of Septon Eustace, prior to her turning sixteen Rhaenyra lost her virginity to her uncle Daemon Targaryen after he seduced her. The account of the fool Mushroom is much more scandalous than the account of Eustace. Mushroom claims that Daemon gave Rhaenyra lessons on how to seduce and please a man, lessons in which Mushroom insists he took part as well."

2 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

 What really tipped me off to a potential conspiracy with Dorne was Rhaegar taking Lyanna to Dorne for safe keeping.   Dorne?  Really? 

Not exactly Dorne. Tower of Joy was much closer to Dornish Marches and Starfall, family castle of Daynes, than to Sunspear of Martells. So he brought her under protection of Arthur Dayne, and not to Martells. So it could be that Martells had no idea that Rhaegar was at TofJ.

2 hours ago, divica said:

For exemple, we know that aerys only went there because varys convinced him. On the other hand, if we believe varys now is working for the blackfyres then he was probably also working for the blackfyres then. So Aerys going to harrenhall must be bad for the targs!

Or could be that he just needed all Targaryens out of the Red Keep for some time. Because he was planning in their absence to dig a tunnel, or restore a tunnel leading to Maegor's Holdfast. And later he used that tunnel to kidnap little Aegon. Though maybe prior Robert's Rebellion happened, agents of Blackfyres (including Varys) were planning to use that tunnel to seize Targaryens, while they thought that they were safe in their castle. But then Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna, and whatever Blackfyres planned to do, had to be postponed.

Varys removed all Targaryens from their castle. And while they were not home, Varys' people made there a "renovation". If they have stayed at home, when those works in tunnels were done, they could have heard something in the walls. So Varys made a pretence for all of them to attend that Tournament at Harrenhal. It lasted for 10 days + time to go there and back, so they were away from home for at least one month.

[Curled Finger]

6 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Or Jaime and Cersei, or Viserys and Daenerys.

ADWD, Tyrion II.

And one more hint that Oberyn could have been in an incestuos relationship with his siblings:

AFFC, The Queenmaker.

Oberyn was the one who brought her there, he was a knight, and he had widows peak and black eyes.

GRRM likes to repeat certain plots in his books. 

There was another uncle, that gave to his niece a lesson of sexual education - Daemon and Rhaenyra Targaryen.

"According to the accounts of Septon Eustace, prior to her turning sixteen Rhaenyra lost her virginity to her uncle Daemon Targaryen after he seduced her. The account of the fool Mushroom is much more scandalous than the account of Eustace. Mushroom claims that Daemon gave Rhaenyra lessons on how to seduce and please a man, lessons in which Mushroom insists he took part as well."

Not exactly Dorne. Tower of Joy was much closer to Dornish Marches and Starfall, family castle of Daynes, than to Sunspear of Martells. So he brought her under protection of Arthur Dayne, and not to Martells. So it could be that Martells had no idea that Rhaegar was at TofJ.

Or could be that he just needed all Targaryens out of the Red Keep for some time. Because he was planning in their absence to dig a tunnel, or restore a tunnel leading to Maegor's Holdfast. And later he used that tunnel to kidnap little Aegon. Though maybe prior Robert's Rebellion happened, agents of Blackfyres (including Varys) were planning to use that tunnel to seize Targaryens, while they thought that they were safe in their castle. But then Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna, and whatever Blackfyres planned to do, had to be postponed.

Could be anything, but incest wasn't really what I was hoping to uncover.  I put the question regarding Ashara's dancing partners to friends earlier this week.   One told me she thought there was something to the order of Ashara's partners.   The other told me that Ashara was promiscuous.   The story leads us all to different conclusions.   Like Brandon Greystark just pointed out, I could be way off base with all of this conspiracy talk.  I could go a couple of directions with the Oberyn/Elia:Arthur/Ashara talk.  I chose to try to be as simple and open minded as I can be.   I'm not here to say you're wrong or bash your ideas.   It could be just as you say.   Do you feel the story of Harrenhal is just another tale of lurid brother/sister incest?  Is there no more to it? 

[divica]

29 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Could be anything, but incest wasn't really what I was hoping to uncover.  I put the question regarding Ashara's dancing partners to friends earlier this week.   One told me she thought there was something to the order of Ashara's partners.   The other told me that Ashara was promiscuous.   The story leads us all to different conclusions.   Like Brandon Greystark just pointed out, I could be way off base with all of this conspiracy talk.  I could go a couple of directions with the Oberyn/Elia:Arthur/Ashara talk.  I chose to try to be as simple and open minded as I can be.   I'm not here to say you're wrong or bash your ideas.   It could be just as you say.   Do you feel the story of Harrenhal is just another tale of lurid brother/sister incest?  Is there no more to it? 

I don t remembre what elia looked like but if she had sons with oberyn shouldn t they be dark skinned and dark haired with some eye color diferent from purple?

What did rhaegar kids look like? and elia for that matter?

[Lady Dacey]

17 minutes ago, divica said:

I don t remembre what elia looked like but if she had sons with oberyn shouldn t they be dark skinned and dark haired with some eye color diferent from purple?

What did rhaegar kids look like? and elia for that matter?

Divina please please don't get Megorova started on genetics. I can't take it again. Please. 

 

[Curled Finger]

24 minutes ago, divica said:

I don t remembre what elia looked like but if she had sons with oberyn shouldn t they be dark skinned and dark haired with some eye color diferent from purple?

What did rhaegar kids look like? and elia for that matter?

Elia had the darker features of the Dornish and Rhaegar looked like a traditional Targ.   Little Rhaenys resembled her mother where baby Aegon seemed to have the Targ look.  Jon is supposed to have a dark haired mother and Targish looking dad and look how he turned out, looking like Ned.  I know 3 kids who share the same parents.   The girls have red hair and very fair skin whereas the boy is darker with black hair.   Go figure. 

[divica]

9 minutes ago, Lady Dacey said:

Divina please please don't get Megorova started on genetics. I can't take it again. Please. 

 

LOL I also don t really like when people delve too deep into genetics. Like the tyrion is a chimera theory for exemple...

I just wanted to know the tone of skin and the color of the eyes and hair of the people involved.

[Curled Finger]

10 minutes ago, Lady Dacey said:

Divina please please don't get Megorova started on genetics. I can't take it again. Please. 

 

It's an interesting theory I enjoyed in another topic.   However, it's somewhat out of place here where we're trying to develop some working theories about Meera's story.   

[divica]

1 minute ago, Curled Finger said:

Elia had the darker features of the Dornish and Rhaegar looked like a traditional Targ.   Little Rhaenys resembled her mother where baby Aegon seemed to have the Targ look.  Jon is supposed to have a dark haired mother and Targish looking dad and look how he turned out, looking like Ned.  I know 3 kids who share the same parents.   The girls have red hair and very fair skin whereas the boy is darker with black hair.   Go figure. 

But if elia had brown hair and the kids black hair it would be suspect for example... What is the color of elia's eyes?

I am pretty sure someone must have some big theory about what are the dominant genes when targs and other people have kids. But based on our little sample of Lyanna and elia wich seem to have similar atributes then all rhaegar kids should have dark features.

I find it weird that jon and fAegon could be so diferent. And I mean weird, not impossible. But it is another point for fAegon being fake.