AlaskanSandman

Bael & Queen Alyssane (Updating)

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Posted (edited)

Bael & Stark Daughter & Queen Alyssane & Stark Lord = Gael the Winter child and a son who faced Bael in 92Ac in the War at the Wall. The war of 92Ac which led to the Dance of the Dragons due to Rhaenyra being of House Stark and House Targaryen.

 

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The World of Ice and Fire - The Targaryen Kings: Viserys I

That measure was not stringent enough, however, and as 128 ended and 129 began, Viserys was growing increasingly ill.

On the third day of the third moon of 129 AC, while entertaining Jaehaerys and Jaehaera from his bed with a tale of their great-great-grandsire and his queen battling giants, mammoths, and wildlings beyond the Wall, the king grew tired. 

Why was Jaehaerys I and Alysanne fighting Giants, Mammoths, and Wildlings north of the Wall? With Alysanne giving the Night’s Watch the New Gift, and closing the Night’s Fort? 

 

Ill tell you why, Bael the Bard and the Rose he plucked.

Here ill show you the clues that I think hint at a war on the wall in Jaehaerys’ time, in which Alysanne cheated on him.

 

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A Clash of Kings - Jon VI

Stonesnake gave a snort. "A murderer, robber, and raper, is what you mean."

"That's all in where you're standing too," Ygritte said. "The Stark in Winterfell wanted Bael's head, but never could take him, and the taste o' failure galled him. One day in his bitterness he called Bael a craven who preyed only on the weak. When word o' that got back, Bael vowed to teach the lord a lesson. So he scaled the Wall, skipped down the kingsroad, and walked into Winterfell one winter's night with harp in hand, naming himself Sygerrik of Skagos. Sygerrik means 'deceiver' in the Old Tongue, that the First Men spoke, and the giants still speak."

"North or south, singers always find a ready welcome, so Bael ate at Lord Stark's own table, and played for the lord in his high seat until half the night was gone. The old songs he played, and new ones he'd made himself, and he played and sang so well that when he was done, the lord offered to let him name his own reward. 'All I ask is a flower,' Bael answered, 'the fairest flower that blooms in the gardens o' Winterfell.'"

"Now as it happened the winter roses had only then come into bloom, and no flower is so rare nor precious. So the Stark sent to his glass gardens and commanded that the most beautiful o' the winter roses be plucked for the singer's payment. And so it was done. But when morning come, the singer had vanished . . . and so had Lord Brandon's maiden daughter. Her bed they found empty, but for the pale blue rose that Bael had left on the pillow where her head had lain."

Jon had never heard this tale before. "Which Brandon was this supposed to be? Brandon the Builder lived in the Age of Heroes, thousands of years before Bael. There was Brandon the Burner and his father Brandon the Shipwright, but—"

"This was Brandon the Daughterless," Ygritte said sharply. "Would you hear the tale, or no?"

He scowled. "Go on."

"Lord Brandon had no other children. At his behest, the black crows flew forth from their castles in the hundreds, but nowhere could they find any sign o' Baelor this maid. For most a year they searched, till the lord lost heart and took to his bed, and it seemed as though the line o' Starks was at its end. But one night as he lay waiting to die, Lord Brandon heard a child's cry. He followed the sound and found his daughter back in her bedchamber, asleep with a babe at her breast."

"Bael had brought her back?"

"No. They had been in Winterfell all the time, hiding with the dead beneath the castle. The maid loved Bael so dearly she bore him a son, the song says . . . though if truth be told, all the maids love Bael in them songs he wrote. Be that as it may, what's certain is that Bael left the child in payment for the rose he'd plucked unasked, and that the boy grew to be the next Lord Stark. So there it is—you have Bael's blood in you, same as me."

"It never happened," Jon said.

She shrugged. "Might be it did, might be it didn't. It is a good song, though. My mother used to sing it to me. She was a woman too, Jon Snow. Like yours." She rubbed her throat where his dirk had cut her. "The song ends when they find the babe, but there is a darker end to the story. Thirty years later, when Bael was King-beyond-the-Wall and led the free folk south, it was young Lord Stark who met him at the Frozen Ford . . . and killed him, for Bael would not harm his own son when they met sword to sword."

"So the son slew the father instead," said Jon.

"Aye," she said, "but the gods hate kinslayers, even when they kill unknowing. When Lord Stark returned from the battle and his mother saw Bael's head upon his spear, she threw herself from a tower in her grief. Her son did not long outlive her. One o' his lords peeled the skin off him and wore him for a cloak."

"Your Bael was a liar," he told her, certain now.

 

And yet, Jon knows nothing. The Boltons never gave it up. Further, like the faceless men, they are balancing the death life ratio.

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A Storm of Swords - Jon III

Jon sat up. "Ygritte, I never stole you."

"Aye, you did. You jumped down the mountain and killed Orell, and afore I could get my axe you had a knife at my throat. I thought you'd have me then, or kill me, or maybe both, but you never did. And when I told you the tale o' Bael the Bard and how he plucked the rose o' Winterfell, I thought you'd know to pluck me then for certain, but you didn't. You know nothing, Jon Snow." She gave him a shy smile. "You might be learning some, though."

 

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The World of Ice and Fire - The Wall and Beyond: The Wildlings

After him, centuries later, came Bael the Bard, whose songs are still sung beyond the Wall...but there are questions as to whether he truly existed or not. The wildlings say he did and credit many songs to his name, but the old chronicles of Winterfell say nothing of him. Whether this was due to the defeats and humiliations he was said to have visited upon them (including, according to one improbable story, deflowering a Stark maid and getting her with child) or because he never existed, we cannot truly say.

 

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As both Brandon and his grandson are given the title "Lord" instead of "King" this seems to indicate that the disappearance of Brandon's daughter took place after the Starks had given up their kingship during Aegon's Conquest.[3] Additionally, the Kingsroad is mentioned, implying it took place during or after the reign of Jaehaerys I Targaryen, during whose reign the Kingsroad was build.[4]

 

 

So there was a war in the North between The Starks and the King Beyond the Wall, in which the Stark was fighting his father unknowingly and was flayed by a Bolton for breaking Kin Slaying laws. At the earliest it could have happened was under King Jaehaerys?

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The World of Ice and Fire - The Targaryen Kings: Viserys I

That measure was not stringent enough, however, and as 128 ended and 129 began, Viserys was growing increasingly ill.

On the third day of the third moon of 129 AC, while entertaining Jaehaerys and Jaehaera from his bed with a tale of their great-great-grandsire and his queen battling giants, mammoths, and wildlings beyond the Wall, the king grew tired. 

Why was Jaehaerys I and Alysanne fighting Giants, Mammoths, and Wildlings north of the Wall? With Alysanne giving the Night’s Watch the New Gift, and closing the Night’s Fort? 

 

Could it be possible that Jaehaerys and Alysanne took part in this war with their Dragons?

Which Stark was it and what happened?

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The World of Ice and Fire - The North: The Lords of Winterfell

Though Torrhen Stark had given up the ancient crown of the Kings of Winter, his sons were less glad of the Targaryen yoke, and some among them entertained talk of rebelling, and of raising the Stark banner whether Lord Torrhen consented or not.

 

We Know who was king around the time of Jaehaery’s death. So Ellard Stark im guessing is the son who was flayed by a Bolton? Or the Stark who took over after that.

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Ellard Stark was a Lord of Winterfell and head of House Stark during the reign of King Jaehaerys I Targaryen.

History

At the Great Council of 101 AC, Ellard supported first Rhaenys Targaryen[3] and then her son, Laenor Velaryon.[1]This may have been because House Stark was angry with King Jaehaerys I Targaryen for earlier transferring the New Gift from northern control to the Night's Watch.[2] Prince Viserys Targaryen, Rhaenys's cousin, was chosen by the assembled lords as the new heir, however.

 

The Next Stark Lords in the Tree go in chronological order, Benjen, Rickon, and Cregan who fought in the Dance of the Dragons.

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Behind the Scenes

Earlier prints of The World of Ice & Fire state that Lord Ellard Stark was the lord who had been forced to give up the lands that would become known as the New Gift.[2] However, it has been confirmed that this is an error,[4] and that the statement would be replaced by "the Starks were glad" in later prints, leaving it unknown for the time being which Stark had been the lord in question

.

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A Storm of Swords - Daenerys I

"Balerion the Black Dread was two hundred years old when he died during the reign of Jaehaerys the Conciliator.

I wonder if Balerion took part In the Battle. I like to think Aegon and Maegor took their second life in Balerion.

 

Queen’s Crown-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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All About Birth Crowning - Parents Magazine

https://www.parents.com › ... › Vaginal Birth › All About Birth Crowning
  1.  
"Once you can see the head and it doesn't slip back in, that's crowning,"

 

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A Storm of Swords - Jon V

Across the lake, the tower was black again, a dim shape dimly seen. "A queen lived there?" asked Ygritte.

"A queen stayed there for a night." Old Nan had told him the story, but Maester Luwin had confirmed most of it. "Alysanne, the wife of King Jaehaerys the Conciliator. He's called the Old King because he reigned so long, but he was young when he first came to the Iron Throne. In those days, it was his wont to travel all over the realm. When he came to Winterfell, he brought his queen, six dragons, and half his court. The king had matters to discuss with his Warden of the North, and Alysanne grew bored, so she mounted her dragon Silverwing and flew north to see the Wall. This village was one of the places where she stopped. Afterward the smallfolk painted the top of their holdfast to look like the golden crown she'd worn when she spent the night among them."

"I have never seen a dragon."

 

Could Bael have actually slept with Alysanne???

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A Feast for Crows - Samwell I

There were dragons here two hundred years ago, Sam found himself thinking, as he watched the cage making a slow descent. They would just have flown to the top of the Wall. Queen Alysanne had visited Castle Black on her dragon, and Jaehaerys, her king, had come after her on his own. Could Silverwing have left an egg behind? 

 

Came after her for war with the King beyond the Wall?

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A Feast for Crows - Jaime IV

"The new High Septon has revived them. He's sent out a call for worthy knights to pledge their lives and swords to the service of the Seven. The Poor Fellows are to be restored as well."

"Why would the Iron Throne allow that?" One of the early Targaryen kings had fought for years to suppress the two military orders, Jaime recalled, though he did not remember which. Maegor, perhaps, or the first Jaehaerys.

 

Maegor, Aenys, and Jaehaerys who ended it. Which is interesting to consider also. A religious war in the south with the Warrior’s sons who have been disbanded since then. Which ened possibly around the time of the War at the Wall that Jaehaerys also possibly was involved in.

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A Feast for Crows - Jaime V

And when Aegon died and the lords rose up against his sons, both orders were in the thick of that rebellion. The more pious lords supported them, and many of the smallfolk. King Maegor finally had to put a bounty on them. He paid a dragon for the head of any unrepentant Warrior's Son, and a silver stag for the scalp of a Poor Fellow, if I recall my history. Thousands were slain, but nigh as many still roamed the realm, defiant, until the Iron Throne slew Maegor and King Jaehaerys agreed to pardon all those who would set aside their swords."

 

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A Feast for Crows - Cersei X

The High Sparrow steepled his thin hands. "I have had the selfsame thought, Your Grace. Just as Maegor the Cruel once took the swords from the Faith, so Jaehaerys the Conciliator deprived us of the scales of judgment.

 

So the Faith and Jaehaerys were definitely at odds.

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A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion IV

He was less hopeful concerning Septon Barth's Dragons, Wyrms, and Wyverns: Their Unnatural History. Barth had been a blacksmith's son who rose to be King's Hand during the reign of Jaehaerys the Conciliator. His enemies always claimed he was more sorcerer than septon. Baelor the Blessed had ordered all Barth's writings destroyed when he came to the Iron Throne. Ten years ago, Tyrion had read a fragment of Unnatural History that had eluded the Blessed Baelor, but he doubted that any of Barth's work had found its way across the narrow sea. And of course there was even less chance of his coming on the fragmentary, anonymous, blood-soaked tome sometimes called Blood and Fire and sometimes The Death of Dragons, the only surviving copy of which was supposedly hidden away in a locked vault beneath the Citadel.

 

So Sorceror Septon Barth of the Faith, took notes on Dragons, that are now locked away at the citadel.

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A Dance with Dragons - Reek III

. Such was my due. The maesters will tell you that King Jaehaerys abolished the lord's right to the first night to appease his shrewish queen, but where the old gods rule, old customs linger. The Umbers keep the first night too, deny it as they may. Certain of the mountain clans as well, and on Skagos … well, only heart trees ever see half of what they do on Skagos.

 And why would Jaehaerys be opposed to Bride Stealing?

 

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A Storm of Swords - Jon V

"Queen Alysanne, you say?"

"Good Queen Alysanne, they called her later. One of the castles on the Wall was named for her as well. Queensgate. Before her visit they called it Snowgate."

 Who were they? They called her Good Queen Alysanne after. Are they, the Citidel and Septons who have hid this all from the records?

 

 Bael and the Queen would have met when both were young as both would be of an age with each other respectively. 

They would hook up, she would hang out up there, maybe around Queen's Crown (Birthing imagery much?), she would yes, give up the child to the Starks to hide likely so her husband didn't flip. Cause she's not likely gonna be allowed to bring that bastard home in the political atmosphere of the south. She then returns to the South and 30 years past roughly (roughly, Ygritte could be off by a couple years give or take).

Then 30 years later, when Bael has become King beyond the Wall some time in his 50s? He faces off against his 30 year old son. In the war that Jaehaerys now comes North for (as he came after her).

 

 

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The World of Ice and Fire - The Targaryen Kings: Jaehaerys I

For forty-six years, the Old King and Good Queen Alysanne were wed, and for the most part it was a happy marriage, with children and grandchildren aplenty.
Two estrangements are recorded, but they did not last more than a year or two before the pair resumed their customary friendship. The Second Quarrel, however, is of note, as it was due to Jaehaerys's decision in 92 AC to pass over his granddaughter Rhaenys—the daughter of his deceased eldest son and heir, Prince Aemon—in favor of bestowing Dragonstone and the place of heir apparent on his next eldest son, Baelon the Brave. Alysanne saw no reason why a man should be favored over a woman...and if Jaehaerys thought women of less use, then he would have no need of her. They reconciled in time, but the Old King outlived his beloved queen, and in his last years it was said that the grief of their parting hung over his court like a pall.
So what ever that first quarrel was, it happened earlier in their relationship

 I think some of the current narratives are meant to clue us in, and suspect maybe the Starks adopted said baby for Alysanne (The Dragon Egg left). So it wasn't a Stark by blood but if he mated with a sister before dying, then he would have mixed Bael and Targ blood into House Stark.

 

 

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A Dance with Dragons - Bran III

A Dance with Dragons - Bran III

Bran's throat was very dry. He swallowed. "Winterfell. I was back in Winterfell. I saw my father. He's not dead, he's not, I saw him, he's back at Winterfell, he's still alive."

"No," said Leaf. "He is gone, boy. Do not seek to call him back from death."

"I saw him." Bran could feel rough wood pressing against one cheek. "He was cleaning Ice."

"You saw what you wished to seeYour heart yearns for your father and your homeso that is what you saw."

Quick Note. Why is there wood pressing into Bran's Cheek suddenly???? O.o

Bran then, is done with the Tree, and goes to lay down and wait for Meera and Jojen. Then something really interesting happens. He begins to time travel through vision,  without the Tree…

. He had hoped that Meera and Jojen would be there, so he could tell them what he had seen, but their snug alcove in the rock was cold and empty. Hodor eased Bran down onto his bed, covered him with furs, and made a fire for them. A thousand eyes, a hundred skins, wisdom deep as the roots of ancient trees.

Watching the flames, Bran decided he would stay awake till Meera came back. Jojen would be unhappy, he knew, but Meera would be glad for him, He did not remember closing his eyes.

 

… but then somehow he was back at Winterfell again, in the godswood looking down upon his fatherLord Eddard seemed much younger this timeHis hairwas brown, with no hint of grey in it, his head bowed. "… let them grow up close as brothers, with only love between them," he prayed, "and let my lady wifefind it in her heart to forgive …"

"Father." Bran's voice was a whisper in the wind, a rustle in the leaves. "Father, it's me. It's Bran. Brandon."

 

Eddard Stark resumed his prayer. Bran felt his eyes fill up with tears. But were they his own tears, or the weirwood's? If I cry, will the tree begin to weep?

The rest of his father's words were drowned out by a sudden clatter of wood on woodEddard Stark dissolved, like mist in a morning sun. Now two children danced across the godswood, hooting at one another as they dueled with broken branches. The girl was the older and taller of the two. Arya! Bran thought eagerly, as he watched her leap up onto a rock and cut at the boy. But that couldn't be right. If the girl was Arya, the boy was Bran himself, and he had never worn his hair so long. And Arya never beat me playing swords, the way that girl is beating him. She slashed the boy across his thigh, so hard that his leg went out from under him and he fell into the pool and began to splash and shout. "You be quiet, stupid," the girl said, tossing her own branch aside. "It's just water. Do you want Old Nan to hear and run tell Father?" She knelt and pulled her brother from the pool, but before she got him out again, the two of them were gone.

After that the glimpses came faster and faster, till Bran was feeling lost and dizzy. He saw no more of his father, nor the girl who looked like Arya, but a woman heavy with child emerged naked and dripping from the black pool, knelt before the tree, and begged the old gods for a son who would avenge her. Then there came a brown-haired girl slender as a spear who stood on the tips of her toes to kiss the lips of a young knight as tall as Hodor. A dark-eyed youth, pale and fierce, sliced three branches off the weirwood and shaped them into arrows. The tree itself was shrinking, growing smaller with each vision, whilst the lesser trees dwindled into saplings and vanished, only to be replaced by other trees that would dwindle and vanish in their turn. And now the lords Bran glimpsed were tall and hard, stern men in fur and chain mail. Some wore faces he remembered from the statues in the crypts, but they were gone before he could put a name to them.

Wait, did Bran just time travel in visions without the Trees????? I should point out that Bran dozes off or goes into a trance while watching the flames, something that Melisandre does. Who even see's Bran in her fires. Could she be seeing him in this moment? Like they were a two way mirror of sorts? Almost like the Glass Candles and how they may possibly work? 

Then, as he watched, a bearded man forced a captive down onto his knees before the heart tree. A white-haired woman stepped toward them through a drift of dark red leaves, a bronze sickle in her hand.
"No," said Bran, "no, don't," but they could not hear him, no more than his father had. The woman grabbed the captive by the hair, hooked the sickle round his throat, and slashed. And through the mist of centuries the broken boy could only watch as the man's feet drummed against the earth … but as his life flowed out of him in a red tide, Brandon Stark could taste the blood.
Did Bran see Good Queen Alysanne already?

 

Key to Tree

I= Descends down to

I-------I = Siblings

=======   = had children with

 

               Hawyn Hardhand

                                  I

                           Halleck Hoare 

                                 I

             I-----------------------------I                                                                    I--------------------I

        Hoare                           Harren the Black     vs  Aegon the     Torrehn Stark   Brandon Snow 

         Lord Commander        Holds the God's Eye     Conqueror              I       seen in vision cutting

            at Nightfort                                                            I                           I      an arrow who offered his

                                                                                           I                           I            bro to kill Aegon I

                                                                                     I-------------I                  I               

                       Warrior’s Sons & Faith of 7 Vs     Aenys       Maegor         I--------------I            I------------I

                             (Harren the Red  Died       Reign 37 AC                       (Sons  Daugher=Ronnel  Jonos

                                  In 37 AC, at near                 - 42 A                         speak of rebellion)       I

                                  the Gods Eye)                         I                                            I                Rodrik===Daella Targ

                                                                                   I                                            I

                                                        I------------------------I                 I----------------------------------I

                                          Jaehaerys      I       Alysanne===Ellard Stark?                 Stark female===Bael

                                             (34-103)       I         (36-99)      I      At council of 101                               I     the Bard   

                       Reign 48 AC - 103 AC      I                           I                                                                 I  -92 Ac                     

                                                                  I                          I                                                                  I    Frozen

                       I----------------I-------------------I                         I                                                                  I      Ford

                Baelon=====Alyssa        Daella ===Rodrik        I                                                                 I 

                                   I                                  I                      I                                                                 I

                   Viserys ============Aemma Aeryn           I                                                                 I     

                                              I                                              I                                                                 I   

               Rhaenyra Targaryen Born In 97 AC                  I                                                                  I

                                                                                              I-----------------------------------------------------I

                                 A Traveling singer ===== Gael The Winter child                   Son who faced Bael== Unknown

                                                                     I       62 Ac at Queens Crown                 Born in the Crypts  I

                                                                     I                                                                                                 I

                                                       Unknown Child  born 97-99 Ac                                                 House Stark

The War was in 92 Ac. with the Dance of the Dragons due to Rhaenyra being of House Stark and House Targaryen. Of Ice and Fire.

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Year 99 After the Conquest

Deaths

 

Year 100 After the Conquest

Events

Year 101 After the Conquest

Deaths

Events

 

Year 103 After the Conquest

Deaths

Events

The Rogue Prince

The Blacks and the Greens- The Dance of the Dragons

Year 129 After the Conquest

Main article: 129 AC

The year 129 AC saw, with the death of King Viserys I Targaryen, the war that had been brewing for many years: the Dance of the Dragons, where brother fought sister, and dragon fought dragon. The Dance saw many deaths, and would last until mid 131 AC.

 

The War was in 92 Ac.

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The World of Ice and Fire - The North: The Lords of Winterfell

After the Conquest and the unification of the Seven Kingdoms, the Starks became Wardens of the North rather than kings, swearing their fealty to the Iron Throne, yet remained supreme within their own domains in all but name. Though Torrhen Stark had given up the ancient crown of the Kings of Winter, his sons were less glad of the Targaryen yoke, and some among them entertained talk of rebelling, and of raising the Stark banner whether Lord Torrhen consented or not.

Whether anti-Targaryen feelings were made worse by Queen Rhaenys Targaryen's efforts to knit together the new, single realm with marriages between the great houses is left to the reader to consider. That Torrhen Stark's daughter was wed to the young and ill-fated Lord of the Vale is wellknown; it was one of the many peace- binding marriages forged by Rhaenys. But there are letters preserved at the Citadel suggesting that Stark accepted these arrangements only after much protest, and that the bride's brothers refused to attend the wedding entirely.

Later still, it was said that the Starks were bitter at the Old King and Queen Alysanne for having forced them to carve away the New Gift and give it the Night's Watch; this may be one reason for why Lord Ellard Stark sided with Corlys Velaryon and Princess Rhaenys at the Great Council of 101 AC.

 So Torrhen had a daughter too i need to include who married into House Arryn .  Plus Brandon Snow, the kings bastard half brother. Who like alot of bastard, may have served at the Wall too.

 

Quote

His bastard brother Brandon Snow offered to cross the Trident alone at night, to sneak into the Targaryen camp and assassinate the dragons while they slept. However, instead Torrhen sent Brandon and three maesters across the river to negotiate with Aegon, and the next day knelt and swore fealty.

In the end, Torrhen did send his bastard brother to Aegon's camp, accompanied by three maesters, to treat with Aegon. The entire night, messages went back and forth, and the next morning, Torrhen crossed the Trident, where he knelt and laid his crown at the feet of Aegon I Targaryen, and swore fealty.

 Brandon who offered to go alone and kill the Targaryens, possibly with three weirwood arrows, as Bloodraven uses.

 

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Bran III

After that the glimpses came faster and faster, till Bran was feeling lost and dizzy. He saw no more of his father, nor the girl who looked like Arya, but a woman heavy with child emerged naked and dripping from the black pool, knelt before the tree, and begged the old gods for a son who would avenge her. Then there came a brown-haired girl slender as a spear who stood on the tips of her toes to kiss the lips of a young knight as tall as Hodor. A dark-eyed youth, pale and fierce, sliced three branches off the weirwood and shaped them into arrows. The tree itself was shrinking, growing smaller with each vision, whilst the lesser trees dwindled into saplings and vanished, only to be replaced by other trees that would dwindle and vanish in their turn. And now the lords Bran glimpsed were tall and hard, stern men in fur and chain mail. Some wore faces he remembered from the statues in the crypts, but they were gone before he could put a name to them.

Then, as he watched, a bearded man forced a captive down onto his knees before the heart tree. A white-haired woman stepped toward them through a driftof dark red leaves, a bronze sickle in her hand.

"No," said Bran, "no, don't," but they could not hear him, no more than his father had. The woman grabbed the captive by the hair, hooked the sickle round his throat, and slashed. And through the mist of centuries the broken boy could only watch as the man's feet drummed against the earth … but as his life flowed out of him in a red tide, Brandon Stark could taste the blood.

Are the visions showing him Bran not just Alysanne (The White haired woman never desribed as old) but also Brandon snow before this readying to kill Aegon and his sisters? 

 

PRINCESS GAEL (called the Winter Child)


Simple-minded but sweet, Gael was most beloved of the queen. She disappeared from court in 99 AC, allegedly dying of a summer fever, but in fact she had drowned herself in the Blackwater after having been seduced and abandoned by a traveling singer, leaving her with nothing but a growing belly.

Gael Targaryen BornIn or between 62 AC and 83 AC  

So if that is the case then Alysanne would be 26 (reasonable) around the time of conception/birth. So 30 years later would be the year 92 AC right?

Quote

92 AC: Choosing of 92 AC: With the death of King Jaehaerys I's eldest son and heir, Prince Aemon, King Jaehaerys needs name a new heir, choosing between Aemon’s only child, Princess Rhaenys, and Jaehaerys's own second son, Prince Baelon. Jaehaerys eventually names Baelon.[24]

 

Quote

The World of Ice and Fire - The Targaryen Kings: Jaehaerys I

For forty-six years, the Old King and Good Queen Alysanne were wed, and for the most part it was a happy marriage, with children and grandchildren aplenty.
Two estrangements are recorded, but they did not last more than a year or two before the pair resumed their customary friendship. The Second Quarrel, however, is of note, as it was due to Jaehaerys's decision in 92 AC to pass over his granddaughter Rhaenys—
 

The Frozen Ford was the site in the north where, according to song, House Stark met the free folk in battle when they went south of the WallBael the Bard, the King-beyond-the-Wall, met his son, the young Lord Stark, at the Frozen Ford and died there rather than kill his son.

Frozen Ford = Deep Lake?
 

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Bran IV

"This seems an old place," Jojen said as they walked down a gallery where the sunlight fell in dusty shafts through empty windows.
"Twice as old as Castle Black," Bran said, remembering. "It was the first castle on the Wall, and the largest." But it had also been the first abandoned, all the way back in the time of the Old King. Even then it had been three-quarters empty and too costly to maintain. Good Queen Alysanne had suggested that the Watch replace it with a smaller, newer castle at a spot only seven miles east, where the Wall curved along the shore of a beautiful green lake. Deep Lake had been paid for by the queen's jewels and built by the men the Old King had sent north, and the black brothers had abandoned the Nightfort to the rats. 

 

Edit- Thanks for the catch on Frozen Ford and Gael by @LiveFirstDieLater

 

As always, I hope you found this interesting if not crazy

Wanna get crazier? Consider this next to Dany and Jon.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/150026-jon-mance’s-blue-rose-and-the-dayne-heiress/

Drawn up before the Gael connection, so after the Gael connection it would possibly hint a Daenerys connection as Bael had two children, a son and a daughter.

 

Edit- Thank you to @PrettyPig for mentioning this about Lyanna and Ashara being sisters. 

See spoiler

Spoiler

 

Quote

I haven’t read those threads, but yes, I agree that both girls were involved.  I have done a ton of work on this for a Fisherman’s Daughter theory and am 100% certain that Lyanna and Ashara are “sisters” in a sense, and Rhaegar has something to do with both of them.   So does Ned, also in a weird parallel to Aegon and his sisters.

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Sansa IV

Sansa had wept too, the first day. Even within the stout walls of Maegor's Holdfast, with her door closed and barred, it was hard not to be terrified when the killing began. She had grown up to the sound of steel in the yard, and scarcely a day of her life had passed without hearing the clash of sword on sword, yet somehow knowing that the fighting was real made all the difference in the world. She heard it as she had never heard it before, and there were other sounds as well, grunts of pain, angry curses, shouts for help, and the moans of wounded and dying men. In the songs, the knights never screamed nor begged for mercy.
So she wept, pleading through her door for them to tell her what was happening, calling for her father, for Septa Mordane, for the king, for her gallant prince. If the men guarding her heard her pleas, they gave no answer. The only time the door opened was late that night, when they thrust Jeyne Poole inside, bruised and shaking. "They're killing everyone," the steward's daughter had shrieked at her. She went on and on. The Hound had broken down her door with a warhammer, she said. There were bodies on the stair of the Tower of the Hand, and the steps were slick with blood. Sansa dried her own tears as she struggled to comfort her friend. They went to sleep in the same bed, cradled in each other's arms like sisters.
 
Think you just helped me find my mirror for them

Peter who seems to be mimicking Bael the Bard. What does Peter know?

And what does peter do with Jeyne Poole?

Jeyne's father, Vayon Poole, died in the massacre and she is given over to Little finger, who says he will find a place for her.[6]

They pin a wolf brooch on her and send her north to wed Roose Bolton's legitimized bastard, Ramsay Bolton, in order to cement their claim to Winterfell.

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Sansa IV

The knife plunged into her belly and tore and tore and tore, until there was nothing left of her down there but shiny wet ribbons.

 

Quote

A Feast for Crows - Cersei II

." Her cousin's eyes were wet and shiny, a child's eyes in an old man's face. 

 

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Catelyn VII

"Ser Vardis is hurt," Ser Rodrik said, his voice grave.

Catelyn did not need to be told; she had eyes, she could see the bright finger of blood running along the knight's forearm, the wetness inside the elbow joint. Every parry was a little slower and a little lower than the one before. Ser Vardis turned his side to his foe, trying to use his shield to block instead, but Bronn slid around him, quick as a cat. The sellsword seemed to be getting stronger. His cuts were leaving their marks now. Deep shiny gashes gleamed all over the knight's armor, on his right thigh, his beaked visor, crossing on his breastplate, a long one along the front of his gorget. 

 

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Daenerys III

"No trick," a woman said in the Common Tongue.

Dany had not noticed Quaithe in the crowd, yet there she stood, eyes wet and shiny behind the implacable red lacquer mask. "What mean you, my lady?"

Is Quiathe Ashara Dayne? 

Quiathe is a shadow binder and i've already linked Melisandre to possibly being dead and the "Melony, Lot 7" is actually her remembering her past life as the Wight who attacked Mormont did, Beric Dondarrion, and Lady Stone Heart.

Jeyne is given over to Ramsey Bolton to be mutilated.

Quote

The tip of her nose becomes black from frostbite en route, and she will most likely lose a bit of her nose because of it.

Facially disfigured possibly.

Now i dont think Ashara was mutilated like this. She killed her self by jumping to her death. So she is disfigure by death. 

So Peter, knowing she kills her self, would see Jeyne Pooles role more or less full filled and of no use other that to serve as a pawn a little longer till her death.

Yet some how some one brought her back. Was it Melisandre, Shadow binder from Asshai? 

 

Indigo and Violet, Ashara and Lyanna

 

As always the search will continue :)

Edited by AlaskanSandman
explain my self better on conclusion and add extra quote

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Interesting topic.

I think we now know where mance is and why he was so interested in the cripts. Probably just to hide after sending farya away...

And while I like the idea that the starks are also descendentes of one famous king of the wildlings because it can be extremely useful now I doubt alysane had na affair with bael. If they went north to batle the wildlings then bael was na old man because his son was 30 at the time...

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Posted (edited)

17 minutes ago, divica said:

Interesting topic.

I think we now know where mance is and why he was so interested in the cripts. Probably just to hide after sending farya away...

And while I like the idea that the starks are also descendentes of one famous king of the wildlings because it can be extremely useful now I doubt alysane had na affair with bael. If they went north to batle the wildlings then bael was na old man because his son was 30 at the time...

Queen Alysanne went first, then Jaehaerys. Further, no added dates are given other than Jaehaerys ruled for a long time. And Bael was a young man and not yet King Beyond the Wall when he visited Winterfell. 

They had two fights, at least one is unknown and drove a huge wedge between them. 

Septon Barth seems likely to have been aware of the Prophecy as much as Jaehaerys would have been aware of it. 

And a few other things just lead me to think that it could have been Alysanne instead.

Stories are half truths and Jon calls Ygrittes story a lie. Assuming half is true

Plus there seems to be some mysterious involvement at the wall and Queen's Crown with rumor of a dragon egg left in the North. Dragon Eggs can refer to baby Targaryens after all. 

Though i definitely may be wrong about some of this, i do think there is more going on here than just Bael the Bard and the Starks. 

This would after all explain why Val the wildling princess looks almost Valyrian and is treated like a Queen, even though it was her sister that married Mance.

Mance has to have more that he's working with.

I also doubt that's all Mance wants with the Crypts. I think it's more likely he's hoping the Horn of Joramun is really down there. Just my opinion though based on the clues :)

 

Edited by AlaskanSandman

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I should mention too the Starks compared to Targs around the time

Aegon --->Torhen Stark the King who bent his knee

Aenys I, Maegor I------->  Missing Stark Lord.    Baels son?

Jaehaerys-----------------> Lord Ellard Stark.        Baels son?

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Jaehaerys and his brother are mentioned in one of the above quotes hinting that his brother may have been apart of things at the wall. So there may have been a deul hook up. Alysanne hooking up with Bael, while either Jaehaerys or their brother Aegon slept with a Stark sister or something. Giving Targaryen blood to the family, just not the ruling side, which is something they were still seeking during the time of the Dance of the Dragons a generation or two later.

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Interesting idea, but had this all taken place post-Conquest, would there not be more detailed history of the Stark son - Bael's bastard - and the battle with the King Beyond the Wall?   As Jon Snow doesn't know the tale of Bael the Bard, I'm not convinced that this recent history could be kept from future Stark generations in such a way.  

Also, if Bael were to have seduced Alysanne, and she bore the son, that would make the child a Targaryen bastard, no?   Are you implying that she left the babe at Winterfell to be raised as a Stark?

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2 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Queen Alysanne went first, then Jaehaerys. Further, no added dates are given other than Jaehaerys ruled for a long time. And Bael was a young man and not yet King Beyond the Wall when he visited Winterfell. 

They had two fights, at least one is unknown and drove a huge wedge between them. 

Septon Barth seems likely to have been aware of the Prophecy as much as Jaehaerys would have been aware of it. 

And a few other things just lead me to think that it could have been Alysanne instead.

Stories are half truths and Jon calls Ygrittes story a lie. Assuming half is true

Plus there seems to be some mysterious involvement at the wall and Queen's Crown with rumor of a dragon egg left in the North. Dragon Eggs can refer to baby Targaryens after all. 

Though i definitely may be wrong about some of this, i do think there is more going on here than just Bael the Bard and the Starks. 

This would after all explain why Val the wildling princess looks almost Valyrian and is treated like a Queen, even though it was her sister that married Mance.

Mance has to have more that he's working with.

I also doubt that's all Mance wants with the Crypts. I think it's more likely he's hoping the Horn of Joramun is really down there. Just my opinion though based on the clues :)

 

Your quotes said that the great war happened when bael's son was 30 and that he killed his father.

Even if allysane went first Bael would have around 50 years. Hardly a good age to charm a young (fertile) queen. Then you are saying that she stayed hidden 9 months in the north and gave her child to a bunch of wildlings to raise in awful conditions? And if this isn t enough she then led her dragon to fight against bael? It makes very little sense.

Besides, I think it is given a explanation somewhere about why she closed the dreadfort...

And jon dismisses the story because he doesn t think any stark was ever skinned. which is very interesting because there are stories about boltons skinning starks...

And wether mance thinks the horn is in the cripts or not he must stay alive to use it and I doubt that the horn will do a lot in winterfell... Well maybe the horn is suposed to wake something in winterfell and only a stark can use it? THAT  would make sense!

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1 minute ago, divica said:

Your quotes said that the great war happened when bael's son was 30 and that he killed his father.

Even if allysane went first Bael would have around 50 years. Hardly a good age to charm a young (fertile) queen. Then you are saying that she stayed hidden 9 months in the north and gave her child to a bunch of wildlings to raise in awful conditions? And if this isn t enough she then led her dragon to fight against bael? It makes very little sense.

Besides, I think it is given a explanation somewhere about why she closed the dreadfort...

And jon dismisses the story because he doesn t think any stark was ever skinned. which is very interesting because there are stories about boltons skinning starks...

And wether mance thinks the horn is in the cripts or not he must stay alive to use it and I doubt that the horn will do a lot in winterfell... Well maybe the horn is suposed to wake something in winterfell and only a stark can use it? THAT  would make sense!

What? No, Bael and the Queen would have met when both were young as both would be of an age with each other respectively. 

They would hook up, she would hang out up there, maybe around Queen's Crown (Birthing imagery much?), she would yes, give up the child to the Starks to hide likely so her husband didn't flip. Cause she's not likely gonna be allowed to bring that bastard home in the political atmosphere of the south. She then returns to the South and 30 years past roughly (roughly, Ygritte could be off by a couple years give or take).

Then 30 years later, when Bael has become King beyond the Wall some time in his 50s? He faces off against his 30 year old son. In the war that Jaehaerys now comes North for (as he came after her).

Are you picking up what im throwing down yet?

Im sure there are some details off or just missing, but time wise it does work. 

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5 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

What? No, Bael and the Queen would have met when both were young as both would be of an age with each other respectively. 

They would hook up, she would hang out up there, maybe around Queen's Crown (Birthing imagery much?), she would yes, give up the child to the Starks to hide likely so her husband didn't flip. Cause she's not likely gonna be allowed to bring that bastard home in the political atmosphere of the south. She then returns to the South and 30 years past roughly (roughly, Ygritte could be off by a couple years give or take).

Then 30 years later, when Bael has become King beyond the Wall some time in his 50s? He faces off against his 30 year old son. In the war that Jaehaerys now comes North for (as he came after her).

Are you picking up what im throwing down yet?

Im sure there are some details off or just missing, but time wise it does work. 

Ah. I thought you were saying she went like some months before jaehaerys went to the north to fight the wildlings.

That is more possible. But I think that child wouldn t be a stark. At most he would be a stark bastard. However I have no idea if alyssane sent 1 year in the north 30 years before jaehaerys went there.

 

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15 minutes ago, divica said:

Your quotes said that the great war happened when bael's son was 30 and that he killed his father.

Even if allysane went first Bael would have around 50 years. Hardly a good age to charm a young (fertile) queen. Then you are saying that she stayed hidden 9 months in the north and gave her child to a bunch of wildlings to raise in awful conditions? And if this isn t enough she then led her dragon to fight against bael? It makes very little sense.

Besides, I think it is given a explanation somewhere about why she closed the dreadfort...

And jon dismisses the story because he doesn t think any stark was ever skinned. which is very interesting because there are stories about boltons skinning starks...

And wether mance thinks the horn is in the cripts or not he must stay alive to use it and I doubt that the horn will do a lot in winterfell... Well maybe the horn is suposed to wake something in winterfell and only a stark can use it? THAT  would make sense!

 

Quote

 

The World of Ice and Fire - The Targaryen Kings: Jaehaerys I

For forty-six years, the Old King and Good Queen Alysanne were wed, and for the most part it was a happy marriage, with children and grandchildren aplenty.
Two estrangements are recorded, but they did not last more than a year or two before the pair resumed their customary friendship. The Second Quarrel, however, is of note, as it was due to Jaehaerys's decision in 92 AC to pass over his granddaughter Rhaenys—the daughter of his deceased eldest son and heir, Prince Aemon—in favor of bestowing Dragonstone and the place of heir apparent on his next eldest son, Baelon the Brave. Alysanne saw no reason why a man should be favored over a woman...and if Jaehaerys thought women of less use, then he would have no need of her. They reconciled in time, but the Old King outlived his beloved queen, and in his last years it was said that the grief of their parting hung over his court like a pall.

 

 
 
So what ever that first quarrel was, it happened earlier in their relationship

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Just now, divica said:

Ah. I thought you were saying she went like some months before jaehaerys went to the north to fight the wildlings.

That is more possible. But I think that child wouldn t be a stark. At most he would be a stark bastard. However I have no idea if alyssane sent 1 year in the north 30 years before jaehaerys went there.

 

I think some of the current narratives are meant to clue us in, and suspect maybe the Starks adopted said baby for Alysanne (The Dragon Egg left). So it wasn't a Stark by blood but if he mated with a sister before dying, then he would have mixed Bael and Targ blood into House Stark. 

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1 minute ago, AlaskanSandman said:

I think some of the current narratives are meant to clue us in, and suspect maybe the Starks adopted said baby for Alysanne (The Dragon Egg left). So it wasn't a Stark by blood but if he mated with a sister before dying, then he would have mixed Bael and Targ blood into House Stark. 

That is possible. But if it is true there is only 1 way we will ever know about it.

Rickard knew about it and his Southern ambitions were to put brandon on the IT because of their targ heritage and some old stark supporter will end up telling that story. Otherwise I think it is kind of irrelevant.

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1 minute ago, divica said:

That is possible. But if it is true there is only 1 way we will ever know about it.

Rickard knew about it and his Southern ambitions were to put brandon on the IT because of their targ heritage and some old stark supporter will end up telling that story. Otherwise I think it is kind of irrelevant.

Well it certainly would explain his southern ambitions better as his claim would be similar to that of the Baratheons and Martells at that point.

Though Brandon Stark could always see it in a vision. Whether one of his tree visions or his fire visions

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Posted (edited)

10 minutes ago, divica said:

That is possible. But if it is true there is only 1 way we will ever know about it.

Rickard knew about it and his Southern ambitions were to put brandon on the IT because of their targ heritage and some old stark supporter will end up telling that story. Otherwise I think it is kind of irrelevant.

 

Quote

 

A Dance with Dragons - Bran III

A Dance with Dragons - Bran III

Bran's throat was very dry. He swallowed. "Winterfell. I was back in Winterfell. I saw my father. He's not dead, he's not, I saw him, he's back at Winterfell, he's still alive."

"No," said Leaf. "He is gone, boy. Do not seek to call him back from death."

"I saw him." Bran could feel rough wood pressing against one cheek. "He was cleaning Ice."

"You saw what you wished to seeYour heart yearns for your father and your homeso that is what you saw."

Quick Note. Why is there wood pressing into Bran's Cheek suddenly???? O.o

Bran then, is done with the Tree, and goes to lay down and wait for Meera and Jojen. Then something really interesting happens. He begins to time travel through vision,  without the Tree…

. He had hoped that Meera and Jojen would be there, so he could tell them what he had seen, but their snug alcove in the rock was cold and empty. Hodor eased Bran down onto his bed, covered him with furs, and made a fire for them. A thousand eyes, a hundred skins, wisdom deep as the roots of ancient trees.

Watching the flames, Bran decided he would stay awake till Meera came back. Jojen would be unhappy, he knew, but Meera would be glad for him, He did not remember closing his eyes.

 

… but then somehow he was back at Winterfell again, in the godswood looking down upon his fatherLord Eddard seemed much younger this timeHis hairwas brown, with no hint of grey in it, his head bowed. "… let them grow up close as brothers, with only love between them," he prayed, "and let my lady wifefind it in her heart to forgive …"

"Father." Bran's voice was a whisper in the wind, a rustle in the leaves. "Father, it's me. It's Bran. Brandon."

 

Eddard Stark resumed his prayer. Bran felt his eyes fill up with tears. But were they his own tears, or the weirwood's? If I cry, will the tree begin to weep?

The rest of his father's words were drowned out by a sudden clatter of wood on woodEddard Stark dissolved, like mist in a morning sun. Now two children danced across the godswood, hooting at one another as they dueled with broken branches. The girl was the older and taller of the two. Arya! Bran thought eagerly, as he watched her leap up onto a rock and cut at the boy. But that couldn't be right. If the girl was Arya, the boy was Bran himself, and he had never worn his hair so long. And Arya never beat me playing swords, the way that girl is beating him. She slashed the boy across his thigh, so hard that his leg went out from under him and he fell into the pool and began to splash and shout. "You be quiet, stupid," the girl said, tossing her own branch aside. "It's just water. Do you want Old Nan to hear and run tell Father?" She knelt and pulled her brother from the pool, but before she got him out again, the two of them were gone.

After that the glimpses came faster and faster, till Bran was feeling lost and dizzy. He saw no more of his father, nor the girl who looked like Arya, but a woman heavy with child emerged naked and dripping from the black pool, knelt before the tree, and begged the old gods for a son who would avenge her. Then there came a brown-haired girl slender as a spear who stood on the tips of her toes to kiss the lips of a young knight as tall as Hodor. A dark-eyed youth, pale and fierce, sliced three branches off the weirwood and shaped them into arrows. The tree itself was shrinking, growing smaller with each vision, whilst the lesser trees dwindled into saplings and vanished, only to be replaced by other trees that would dwindle and vanish in their turn. And now the lords Bran glimpsed were tall and hard, stern men in fur and chain mail. Some wore faces he remembered from the statues in the crypts, but they were gone before he could put a name to them.

Wait, did Bran just time travel in visions without the Trees????? I should point out that Bran dozes off or goes into a trance while watching the flames, something that Melisandre does. Who even see's Bran in her fires. Could she be seeing him in this moment? Like they were a two way mirror of sorts? Almost like the Glass Candles and how they may possibly work? 

Then, as he watched, a bearded man forced a captive down onto his knees before the heart tree. A white-haired woman stepped toward them through a drift of dark red leaves, a bronze sickle in her hand.
"No," said Bran, "no, don't," but they could not hear him, no more than his father had. The woman grabbed the captive by the hair, hooked the sickle round his throat, and slashed. And through the mist of centuries the broken boy could only watch as the man's feet drummed against the earth … but as his life flowed out of him in a red tide, Brandon Stark could taste the blood.

 

 
Or did he see Good Queen Alysanne already?
Edited by AlaskanSandman
Put entire passage in to illustrate my point on fire visions

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12 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

 

 
Or did he see Good Queen Alysanne already?

If alysanne wanted revenge she had the power to seek it herself. 

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Posted (edited)

That may not be what that scene is about, perhaps the Targayens once worshiped the Old Gods? As always, a piece is probably missing.

 

Edited by AlaskanSandman

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Posted (edited)

1 minute ago, divica said:

If alysanne wanted revenge she had the power to seek it herself. 

Arg messed that up. 

That may not be what that scene is about, perhaps the Targayens once worshiped the Old Gods? As always, a piece is probably missing.

Edited by AlaskanSandman

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Posted (edited)

43 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Arg messed that up. 

That may not be what that scene is about, perhaps the Targayens once worshiped the Old Gods? As always, a piece is probably missing.

Do you know this is?

Quote

girl slender as a spear who stood on the tips of her toes to kiss the lips of a young knight as tall as Hodor

because it is probable that the naked woman is an event between this scene and lyanna and benjen fighting

Edited by divica

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2 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

 

I think that’s actually a typo? Jaehaery’s father was Aenys I and his brother was Aegon. Either way, Jaehaerys and his brother are mentioned. I wonder if this is tied to what happened at the wall?

 

 

 

Since when was Jaehaerys reckoned weak? Oh, when someone stole his wife.

 

 

Barristan was referring to Jaehaerys II in those parts, not the Conciliator. 

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37 minutes ago, divica said:

Do you know this is?

because it is probable that the naked woman is an event between this scene and lyanna and benjen fighting

Nope. Just going off possible clues. 

Im sure ill find more tidbits later.

And might just be, i couldn't say for sure. This is just a theory

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