How was there no Dustin succession crisis?

[Floki of the Ironborn]

Barbrey has been ruler of House Dustin ever since Robert’s Rebellion. She only married into it, and she’s been a widow since Willam died. There is no mention of any other Dustins being alive in the main story, so we can assume that she is the last person with the Dustin name.

How has that not been resolved in almost twenty years? She was just allowed to rule without wedding or producing Dustin heirs? When the Hornwoods died, leaving Donella, the whole North treated it like a crisis, with almost every major house offering to marry her and assume the Hornwood name. Where was all that for the Dustin situation? And it’s not like they’re a less significant house. They’re in charge of the North’s biggest winter town. I’m all for women ruling, but it doesn’t seem like Barbrey has made any kind of plan regarding heirs, and she’s not going to live forever.

[A Ghost of Someone]

Lady Barbrey strikes me as a bit tough, strong, not exactly a push over and has probably been though all of what Lady Hornwood was though up until her kidnapping, forced marriage, rape and locked away in a room to starve ordeal.

[Jaehaerys Tyrell]

We know less of the situation with Lady Dustin, but due to intermarriages the Ryswells may well be the heirs to Barrowton, and it’ll eventually be given to a younger brother of hers. 

The whole Hornwood fiasco seems like plot convenience to me, Brandon and Beren Tallhart were Lord Hornwood’s nephews and were the obvious heirs. I don’t know how on Earth they could allow an ancient family’s lands to be claimed by the Bolton widower of the Manderly widow of the last Lord Hornwood. It’d be like Petyr becoming the Lord of the Eyrie.

[A Ghost of Someone]

1 hour ago, Jaehaerys Tyrell said:

We know less of the situation with Lady Dustin, but due to intermarriages the Ryswells may well be the heirs to Barrowton, and it’ll eventually be given to a younger brother of hers. 

The whole Hornwood fiasco seems like plot convenience to me, Brandon and Beren Tallhart were Lord Hornwood’s nephews and were the obvious heirs. I don’t know how on Earth they could allow an ancient family’s lands to be claimed by the Bolton widower of the Manderly widow of the last Lord Hornwood. It’d be like Petyr becoming the Lord of the Eyrie.

The Manderly's intervened and took the lands so the Boltons could not have them but the Red Wedding happned and Wyman's remaining son was a hostage. Most of this took place while Robb was gone and the Boltons were already plotting against Robb at this time. LAdy Barbrey just strikes me as a very tough woman whom men seem to not want to "mess with".

[Free Northman Reborn]

2 hours ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

The Manderly's intervened and took the lands so the Boltons could not have them but the Red Wedding happned and Wyman's remaining son was a hostage. Most of this took place while Robb was gone and the Boltons were already plotting against Robb at this time. LAdy Barbrey just strikes me as a very tough woman whom men seem to not want to "mess with".

"Tough woman" image or not, there must be more to her staying in command than just her strength of will. No doubt we will learn more about it in future. I favour historical Ryswell/Dustin intermarriages, thus giving her a blood link to the Dustin seat in addition to her being the widow of the last lord Dustin.

[Ralphis Baratheon]

Like others have said Barb is one tough old biddy. I think she might have actually told off Ned after the rebellion when he brought a horse back to her instead of her husband's bones. That may have intimidated Ned into basically letting her do what she wanted while he was Warden of the North. 

[PrinceHenryris]

It's a good question.

One possibility for her staying in power is that she got some sort of concessions from Ned when he brought the horse back.

For me, I think Lady Barbrey could be the second most powerful economic force outside of Winterfell.   She controls Barrowton, and is also a daughter/sister of the Cantankerous Ryswell boys.  She might often arbitrate their disputes and ultimately govern House Ryswell in all but name.

Either way, she has some measure of power in the North.  As she tells Theon (paraphrasing), "Roose knows I can make trouble, so he keeps me sweet."

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

If you have the Boltons , Ryswell and especially the Starks to support your claim you wont have any succession crisis .

[Adam Yozza]

I think it's most likely that the current Ryswell's are the closest house with a blood claim on Barrowtown. Rather than give Barrowtown to Roger, Rickard or Roose, Ned probably just allowed Barbrey; as the widow of the last Lord as well as a claimant in her own right; to keep on ruling the town.

[Lord Varys]

There is no reason to assume that Lady Barbrey has any blood claim to Barrowton. All we need for her being the Lady of Barrowton is House Dustin being pretty much extinct and Winterfell giving her permission to rule Barrowton due to her claim by marriage. Why Ned would have done that is completely unclear but it is pretty obvious that he did it. Without his permission Lady Barbrey couldn't have possibly become or remained the ruler of Barrowton.

Widows have claims, too, and the absence of an heir pretty much indicates that there are no known Dustin heirs around. Else Lady Barbrey would have some sort of presumptive heir leading her armies, etc.

Chances are not that bad that Barrowton will go to the Ryswells after Barbrey's death but not because they have blood claims to Barrowton but because Barbrey is a born Ryswell and now she is the Lady of Barrowton, and no one else.

This is a medieval world. People might not really have documents about the marriages of some Dustins ten generations back. And if the recent Dustins didn't produce any male or female cadet branches the house might simply have died out both in the male and the female line when Lord Willam Dustin died. That kind of thing can and does happen.

[Free Northman Reborn]

10 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

There is no reason to assume that Lady Barbrey has any blood claim to Barrowton. All we need for her being the Lady of Barrowton is House Dustin being pretty much extinct and Winterfell giving her permission to rule Barrowton due to her claim by marriage. Why Ned would have done that is completely unclear but it is pretty obvious that he did it. Without his permission Lady Barbrey couldn't have possibly become or remained the ruler of Barrowton.

Widows have claims, too, and the absence of an heir pretty much indicates that there are no known Dustin heirs around. Else Lady Barbrey would have some sort of presumptive heir leading her armies, etc.

Chances are not that bad that Barrowton will go to the Ryswells after Barbrey's death but not because they have blood claims to Barrowton but because Barbrey is a born Ryswell and now she is the Lady of Barrowton, and no one else.

This is a medieval world. People might not really have documents about the marriages of some Dustins ten generations back. And if the recent Dustins didn't produce any male or female cadet branches the house might simply have died out both in the male and the female line when Lord Willam Dustin died. That kind of thing can and does happen.

Don't agree with the marriage claim bit. That would be like Sansa becoming heir to the Vale just by marrying Harry, even if she has no child by him. Or Cersei inheriting the Iron Throne if Tommen and Myrcella should die.

Both highly improbable events, TV show fan fiction be damned.

As I said before, I believe there is Dustin blood in the Ryswell recent ancestry. Lady Dustin might not have a stronger claim by blood than her brothers, then, but in that case I can see her retaining temporary control over Barrowton by virtue of her added marriage claim. But the idea that Jeyne Westerling could have inherited Winterfell even if she did not bear Robb a child, or any of the other examples above makes little sense.

 

[A Ghost of Someone]

6 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

"Tough woman" image or not, there must be more to her staying in command than just her strength of will. No doubt we will learn more about it in future. I favour historical Ryswell/Dustin intermarriages, thus giving her a blood link to the Dustin seat in addition to her being the widow of the last lord Dustin.

I think she is simply strong enough to rise above the institutional norms of her world. No one is going to make her do what she does not want to.

[Lord Varys]

6 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Don't agree with the marriage claim bit. That would be like Sansa becoming heir to the Vale just by marrying Harry, even if she has no child by him. Or Cersei inheriting the Iron Throne if Tommen and Myrcella should die.

Both highly improbable events, TV show fan fiction be damned.

Nope. George makes it clear in his long SSM on inheritance customs that widows have claims, too. Just as non-legitimized bastards do.

And we do know that those claims were actually realized. Lady Hornwood does have a claim to Hornwood, that's how Ramsay justifies his own claim to the title after he has married and killed her. And Rodrik and Bran leave her in charge of the Hornwood lands after her husband and son have died, even considering to marry her to Rodrik to help her keep the lands. She does have a claim and said claim is universally acknowledged.

Dowager queens and ladies could indeed lay claim to the lands of titles of their husbands (in absence of other heirs). It is what Nymeria did in Dorne after the death of Prince Mors, and it is what Lady Barbrey apparently did in Barrowton. It might not happen all that often - and it certainly needs a strong woman capable and willing to destroy of push other heirs aside or the absence of such heirs - but it is certainly possible.

6 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

As I said before, I believe there is Dustin blood in the Ryswell recent ancestry. Lady Dustin might not have a stronger claim by blood than her brothers, then, but in that case I can see her retaining temporary control over Barrowton by virtue of her added marriage claim. But the idea that Jeyne Westerling could have inherited Winterfell even if she did not bear Robb a child, or any of the other examples above makes little sense.

It makes actually a lot of sense. If a wife ended up dominating a weak-willed husband, effectively ruling in his name even before he died, the idea that a woman marrying into a family could take control of an entire household and lordship in her own name isn't unlikely or impossible at all.

Ellyn Reyne could have done something like that in the absence of Lannister heirs. She had the strength of personality to do so. Especially if she had ended up marrying Tytos Lannister. Usually such heirs do exist, however.

But if one thinks about the example of Catherine the Great a female consort could even seize the crown in place of her own son, deposing and condoning the murder of her own husband in the process of the coup. That could happen in Westeros, too.

And whenever there is no clear heir - or no known heir at all - leaving the castle with the familiar and accepted ruler is better than strife and anarchy.

With the Stark children all believed to be dead, Jeyne Westerling could indeed rise to the lordship of Winterfell by virtue of her marriage to Robb. People could easily prefer the Young Wolf's consort to some distant and unknown Vale cousins.

Power resides where people believe it to be. And a queen dowager or lady dowager usually looks pretty powerful and prestigious. They can even wear crowns, unlike some distant cousins who might not even own castles.

[Free Northman Reborn]

36 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Nope. George makes it clear in his long SSM on inheritance customs that widows have claims, too. Just as non-legitimized bastards do.

And we do know that those claims were actually realized. Lady Hornwood does have a claim to Hornwood, that's how Ramsay justifies his own claim to the title after he has married and killed her. And Rodrik and Bran leave her in charge of the Hornwood lands after her husband and son have died, even considering to marry her to Rodrik to help her keep the lands. She does have a claim and said claim is universally acknowledged.

Dowager queens and ladies could indeed lay claim to the lands of titles of their husbands (in absence of other heirs). It is what Nymeria did in Dorne after the death of Prince Mors, and it is what Lady Barbrey apparently did in Barrowton. It might not happen all that often - and it certainly needs a strong woman capable and willing to destroy of push other heirs aside or the absence of such heirs - but it is certainly possible.

It makes actually a lot of sense. If a wife ended up dominating a weak-willed husband, effectively ruling in his name even before he died, the idea that a woman marrying into a family could take control of an entire household and lordship in her own name isn't unlikely or impossible at all.

Ellyn Reyne could have done something like that in the absence of Lannister heirs. She had the strength of personality to do so. Especially if she had ended up marrying Tytos Lannister. Usually such heirs do exist, however.

But if one thinks about the example of Catherine the Great a female consort could even seize the crown in place of her own son, deposing and condoning the murder of her own husband in the process of the coup. That could happen in Westeros, too.

And whenever there is no clear heir - or no known heir at all - leaving the castle with the familiar and accepted ruler is better than strife and anarchy.

With the Stark children all believed to be dead, Jeyne Westerling could indeed rise to the lordship of Winterfell by virtue of her marriage to Robb. People could easily prefer the Young Wolf's consort to some distant and unknown Vale cousins.

Power resides where people believe it to be. And a queen dowager or lady dowager usually looks pretty powerful and prestigious. They can even wear crowns, unlike some distant cousins who might not even own castles.

I just find it extraordinary that an 8000 year old House does not have any heirs by blood kicking around in the North. Similar to the Stark situation, which was obviously designed so for plot convenience.

In the Hornwood case, for example, there were blood relations of Lord Hornwood alive, but Ramsay usurped them while the overlord of the North was  away and unable to set things right. Similarly, I am pretty sure there are Dustin heirs around. I even seem to recall George confirming as much when quizzed about this, but that may be a false memory, I would have to check.

In my view, the only way for Lady Dustin to have temporary rule of Barrowton would be if the remaining blood heirs are under age and she is acting as their regent, or if she is a blood heir herself. Somehow I don't think that House Dustin is extinct as far as its bloodline is concerned. That would be an awful coincidence, considering its 8000 year history.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Here is Martin's quote on the matter:

Question:

That's it of those I came up with, although the web page has spurred one more question from others. You didn't block the Houses Ryswell and Dustin in the North as dead, and I said as much, but given that Lord Dustin and Ser Mark Ryswell fought and died at the Tower of Joy ... Were they the last of their houses? I don't think so, but I suppose one can't be certain, especially as no Dustins and Ryswells appear in the novels (both in the text and the appendicies.) Then again, neither are the Burleys or Liddles (I think), and certainly not the Flints of Flints Finger or any of the lords of Skagos.

Answer:

Well, Robin Flint is one of Catelyn's companions when she rides to Bitterbridge, though I never say which branch he's from, I don't think. No, there are still Dustins and Ryswells in the north, and maybe even in Robb's army. I mean, he had twenty thousand guys or near about when he marched south, I couldn't characterize them all. I have always figured that there are =dozens= of minor lords and =hundreds= of knights and such in all these armies. Simply because someone isn't mentioned doesn't mean they are not there.

The lords of Skagos, though... they are a special case. Skagos is a =real= backwater, with very little contact with the mainland. In theory, the island is part of the north and subject to Winterfell. In practice, they pretty much go their own way.

[Lord Varys]

1 minute ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

I just find it extraordinary that an 8000 year old House does not have any heirs by blood kicking around in the North. Similar to the Stark situation, which was obviously designed so for plot convenience.

You can find that odd, but that doesn't make it unlikely or impossible. Noble and royal lines did die out both in reality and in Westeros. Wars aren't always necessary for that. Infertility, sicknesses, plagues, accidents, high child mortality, etc. can see that it happens, too.

1 minute ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

In the Hornwood case, for example, there were blood relations of Lord Hornwood alive, but Ramsay usurped them while the overlord of the North was  away and unable to set things right. Similarly, I am pretty sure there are Dustin heirs around. I even seem to recall George confirming as much when quizzed about this, but that may be a false memory, I would have to check.

While you have nothing to offer you should remain silent. I don't remember George mentioning anything about additional Dustins.

The Hornwood succession wasn't settled by either Robb's representatives in the North or Robb himself, of course, but it is pretty clear that Lady Donella Hornwood had a claim by marriage in her own right, a claim Ramsay later used to justify his own claim. And Rodrik acknowledges that this claim is justified. He fears that Roose is going to insist that Hornwood belongs now to the Boltons thanks to Ramsay's marriage to Lady Donella. Robb might have ruled differently due to Ramsay's crimes and the fact that there were other Hornwood heirs around, but the Boltons do have a case there. And they can only have this case if widows actually do have claims in general.

1 minute ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

In my view, the only way for Lady Dustin to have temporary rule of Barrowton would be if the remaining blood heirs are under age and she is acting as their regent, or if she is a blood heir herself. Somehow I don't think that House Dustin is extinct as far as its bloodline is concerned. That would be an awful coincidence, considering its 8000 years history.

Your view is pretty much irrelevant.

Lady Barbrey Dustin doesn't act as a regent for unseen heirs nor is does she hold Barrowton temporarily. She is the Lady of Barrowton. There is no question about that. Few things are more obvious in ADwD than the fact that Lady Barbrey is ruling Barrowton and the Barrowlands in her own right.

And again - thousands of years in a medieval setting are no guarantee that people actually do know or recall who is the descendant of whom. The great houses might keep track of their male line ancestry - which isn't all that difficult - but tracking down the female line of any bloodline would be a very tedious business, especially if we are talking about the daughters of daughters of daughters of daughters. The house name would change with every successive marriage.

I've done considerable genealogical research in the last months, and it is not exactly getting easier the further we go back in time.

The idea that the average nobleman knows his female line ancestors back to ten or so generations is exceedingly unlikely.

In that sense, House Dustin could easily be extinct only officially while there are still descendants around who don't know that they have claims. Barbrey's claim most likely could only have been challenged by a male-line cousin bearing the name Dustin. And no such people seem to be around.

And in the end - it was Eddard Stark's decision who rules Barrowton. And he clearly favored Lady Barbrey. Either with some other claimant around or without such a claimant around. But if the succession of Barrowton had been disputed then it is very odd that there are no Dustins sucking up to Stannis right now.

[Lord Varys]

13 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Here is Martin's quote on the matter:

Question:

That's it of those I came up with, although the web page has spurred one more question from others. You didn't block the Houses Ryswell and Dustin in the North as dead, and I said as much, but given that Lord Dustin and Ser Mark Ryswell fought and died at the Tower of Joy ... Were they the last of their houses? I don't think so, but I suppose one can't be certain, especially as no Dustins and Ryswells appear in the novels (both in the text and the appendicies.) Then again, neither are the Burleys or Liddles (I think), and certainly not the Flints of Flints Finger or any of the lords of Skagos.

Answer:

Well, Robin Flint is one of Catelyn's companions when she rides to Bitterbridge, though I never say which branch he's from, I don't think. No, there are still Dustins and Ryswells in the north, and maybe even in Robb's army. I mean, he had twenty thousand guys or near about when he marched south, I couldn't characterize them all. I have always figured that there are =dozens= of minor lords and =hundreds= of knights and such in all these armies. Simply because someone isn't mentioned doesn't mean they are not there.

The lords of Skagos, though... they are a special case. Skagos is a =real= backwater, with very little contact with the mainland. In theory, the island is part of the north and subject to Winterfell. In practice, they pretty much go their own way.

Oh, I recall that now. That is a very old SSM. As it happened, there are Ryswells out there and one Dustin - Lady Barbrey Dustin, who showed up in ADwD.

George seems to put the Dustins and Ryswells among 'minor houses' which they clearly did not turn out to be.

This cannot be used as a canonical source that there are still Dustins around.

[Free Northman Reborn]

15 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Oh, I recall that now. That is a very old SSM. As it happened, there are Ryswells out there and one Dustin - Lady Barbrey Dustin, who showed up in ADwD.

George seems to put the Dustins and Ryswells among 'minor houses' which they clearly did not turn out to be.

This cannot be used as a canonical source that there are still Dustins around.

Haha!

A premature snotty reply, slapped down by a direct quote from George, and now some weak backtracking coupled with an attempt to handwave George's direct statement away.

Whatever, Lord Varys. Carry on.

[Lord Varys]

Just now, Free Northman Reborn said:

Haha!

A premature snotty reply, slapped down by a direct quote from George, and now some weak backtracking coupled with an attempt to handwave George's direct statement away.

Whatever, Lord Varys. Carry on.

Even if there were any Dustins around - obviously George thinks they have less of a claim than Lady Barbrey Ryswell Dustin, no?

SSMs are only canon if they are not contradicted by canon. I myself did ask George questions that are in the SSMs now which turned out to be overturned by later canonical publications.

You can also go back and read all the SSMs on the five year gap. They aren't canon today, either, are they?

[Free Northman Reborn]

2 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Even if there were any Dustins around - obviously George thinks they have less of a claim than Lady Barbrey Ryswell Dustin, no?

SSMs are only canon if they are not contradicted by canon. I myself did ask George questions that are in the SSMs now which turned out to be overturned by later canonical publications.

You can also go back and read all the SSMs on the five year gap. They aren't canon today, either, are they?

The issue is solved if the Ryswells are the Dustin heirs by blood. Which would provide a plausible reason why they are content to let her rule Barrowton without "sucking up to Stannis" in protest.

Else Barrowton still has a succession crisis, given that Lady Dustin is too old to have children.