Jon, Mance’s Blue Rose, and the Dayne Heiress. (Updated 1/15)

[AlaskanSandman]

On 1/21/2018 at 2:29 PM, Ser Insight said:

No... Jon is Ned's. 

No, Daenerys and Val are Ned's. The twins born at the Tower of Joy (which to Eddard is the Tower of Sorrow), which mirrors Queen Alysanne and her twins at Queen's Crown. Jon is the child of Mance and Lyanna born in the crypts of Winterfell. This is why even Mance is trying to get into the crypts, this is why the crypts call to Jon, this is why Jon and Mance (Abel) mirror Bael and his son. 

[LynnS]

4 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Id have to disagree on the grounds that he got beat by a bunch of squires, i doubt he could be the knights they served. And there are no magic swords, not that we've seen. Nor is there any magic shirts or shields lol at best there is valyrian steel which is i guess magic like but no flames or lightening coming from it. Doesnt make the fighter stronger. Mance would also have a connection to the Old Gods and weirwoods so he could have painted it too. But i could be wrong

We're told that Howland knows the magic of the Crannogmen; one of which is weaving words and that he went to the Isle of Face to learn their magic.
 

Quote

 

A Dance with Dragons - Melisandre I

Jon Snow turned to Melisandre. "What sorcery is this?"

"Call it what you will. Glamor, seeming, illusion. R'hllor is Lord of Light, Jon Snow, and it is given to his servants to weave with it, as others weave with thread."

 

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Melisandre I

"The bones help," said Melisandre. "The bones remember. The strongest glamors are built of such things. A dead man's boots, a hank of hair, a bag of fingerbones. With whispered words and prayer, a man's shadow can be drawn forth from such and draped about another like a cloak. The wearer's essence does not change, only his seeming."

 

Quote

 

A Dance with Dragons - The Ugly Little Girl

"Mummers change their faces with artifice," the kindly man was saying, "and sorcerers use glamors, weaving light and shadow and desire to make illusions that trick the eye. These arts you shall learn, but what we do here goes deeper. Wise men can see through artifice, and glamors dissolve before sharp eyes, but the face you are about to don will be as true and solid as that face you were born with. Keep your eyes closed." She felt his fingers brushing back her hair. "Stay still. This will feel queer. You may be dizzy, but you must not move."

Then came a tug and a soft rustling as the new face was pulled down over the old. The leather scraped across her brow, dry and stiff, but as her blood soaked into it, it softened and turned supple. Her cheeks grew warm, flushed. She could feel her heart fluttering beneath her breast, and for one long moment she could not catch her breath. Hands closed around her throat, hard as stone, choking her. Her own hands shot up to claw at the arms of her attacker, but there was no one there. A terrible sense of fear filled her, and she heard a noise, a hideous crunching noise, accompanied by blinding pain. A face floated in front of her, fat, bearded, brutal, his mouth twisted with rage. She heard the priest say, "Breathe, child. Breathe out the fear. Shake off the shadows. He is dead. She is dead. Her pain is gone. Breathe."

 

Weaving words is code for making a glamor.   If the Green Men are the protectors of the Isle of Faces; I think it's likely that Howland learned something about combat from them as well since he takes a bronze shirt, a shield and his spear with him.   I think it's entirely possible that Howland can draw something from his borrowed armor that assists him in the joust.  What memories are contained in the borrowed armor.

Consider Thoros' concern about Lem actually using the Hound's Helm.  Thoros thinks the helm contains a memory of Sandor which will influence anyone who wears it.

 

[LynnS]

4 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Well he served under Qhorqyle we're told who died in 288 when Jon was 5. If Benjen had never met Mance then it's likely Benjen hadn't joined by then either. What Mance was doing for all those years after the watch and becoming king beyond the wall is a mystery. Specially with what Osha says. So if he did leave in 288ac then he could have only faced 11 winters north of the wall, yet she says he hasnt seen one winter beyond the wall. I imagine since seasons run funny there may have only been one or two winters since, but still, where was he? 

There is much and more going on with him and the Wildling princess Val who has the grey eyes of a stark and the honey hair worn almost the same as Queen Alsyanne who had blue eyes also. I have my opinions on who Val is 

You'll have to talk to the Fattest Leach about her interpretation of the Bear and the Maiden Fair.

[Bloodraven's Spider]

4 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

No, Daenerys and Val are Ned's. The twins born at the Tower of Joy (which to Eddard is the Tower of Sorrow), which mirrors Queen Alysanne and her twins at Queen's Crown. Jon is the child of Mance and Lyanna born in the crypts of Winterfell. This is why even Mance is trying to get into the crypts, this is why the crypts call to Jon, this is why Jon and Mance (Abel) mirror Bael and his son. 

wheres the proof that Dany & Val are Neds? Im assuming the mother is Ashara in this case?

 

[LynnS]

17 minutes ago, Ser Insight said:

wheres the proof that Dany & Val are Neds? Im assuming the mother is Ashara in this case?

 

I'm assuming that Dany is Ashara's also given Ser Barristan's impression with either Rhaegar or Aerys the daddy if we keep to the prophecy. But I lean towards Rhaegar since 'there must be one more' and Ashara is Dornish and one of Elia's hand maidens most likely in the room with Elia when she was giving birth and possibly the third person that Rhaegar addresses in the HoU vision with Dany standing in Ashara's place at the door. . 

[J. Stargaryen]

13 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

No, it doesn't significantly undermine it just cause you think so. No one regards Rhaegar as a great fighter, that' fact. He's good but not on the level of Barristan, or Arthur. I dont need to take a fresh look at my theory. Further im hardly the first to think Rhaegar cheated and isn't that good based on the evidence. And i dont need to prove at any point that Rhaegar cheated as none of my theory is reliant on Rhaegar cheating. 

This isn't a matter of opinion. You claimed that Rhaegar must've known he would lose to Selmy since he'd lost to him before. But that claim no longer makes sense since Rhaegar had also defeated Selmy previously. It makes just as much sense to claim that Rhaegar knew he would win since he'd done so before. 

You also seem to conflate sword fighting with tourney jousting. Another mistake. Mance being a good swordsman, on foot no less, does not tell us anything about his jousting skills. There's simply nothing in the text indicating Mance was even an average tourney jouster. Whereas Rhaegar's jousting record indicates he was among the finest jousters in the 7K, if not the finest himself. Perhaps he could be thought of as first among equals. Selmy and Dayne being the other "equals."

Actually, I happen to agree with you that your theory doesn't need a fresh look so much as a fresh start.

When I pointed out Rhaegar's pre-HH jousting record you suggested he could have been cheating in those tourneys too, as a way to dismiss his excellent jousting record. Because that record is problematic for your theory, as it erases any motive for Rhaegar to use a double in the finals against Selmy. Put simply, if Rhaegar is more or less as good a jouster as Selmy, which is exactly what the record suggests, then there's no reason for Rhaegar to use a double in his place, and your theory falls apart.

[AlaskanSandman]

3 minutes ago, J. Stargaryen said:

This isn't a matter of opinion. You claimed that Rhaegar must've known he would lose to Selmy since he'd lost to him before. But that claim no longer makes sense since Rhaegar had also defeated Selmy previously. It makes just as much sense to claim that Rhaegar knew he would win since he'd done so before. 

You also seem to conflate sword fighting with tourney jousting. Another mistake. Mance being a good swordsman, on foot no less, does not tell us anything about his jousting skills. There's simply nothing in the text indicating Mance was even an average tourney jouster. Whereas Rhaegar's jousting record indicates he was among the finest jousters in the 7K, if not the finest himself. Perhaps he could be thought of as first among equals. Selmy and Dayne being the other "equals."

Actually, I happen to agree with you that your theory doesn't need a fresh look so much as a fresh start.

When I pointed out Rhaegar's pre-HH jousting record you suggested he could have been cheating in those tourneys too, as a way to dismiss his excellent jousting record. Because that record is problematic for your theory, as it erases any motive for Rhaegar to use a double in the finals against Selmy. Put simply, if Rhaegar is more or less as good a jouster as Selmy, which is exactly what the record suggests, then there's no reason for Rhaegar to use a double in his place, and your theory falls apart.

My theory doesn't really on Rhaegar cheating though. Thats what you seem to be missing. Rhaegar could have won fair and square. Doesn't matter really. Point of this thread is Mance being Jon's father and not Rhaegar. So that little nugget you keep focusing on in my speculations, doesn't' impact anything either way. 

 

[AlaskanSandman]

6 minutes ago, J. Stargaryen said:

This isn't a matter of opinion. You claimed that Rhaegar must've known he would lose to Selmy since he'd lost to him before. But that claim no longer makes sense since Rhaegar had also defeated Selmy previously. It makes just as much sense to claim that Rhaegar knew he would win since he'd done so before. 

You also seem to conflate sword fighting with tourney jousting. Another mistake. Mance being a good swordsman, on foot no less, does not tell us anything about his jousting skills. There's simply nothing in the text indicating Mance was even an average tourney jouster. Whereas Rhaegar's jousting record indicates he was among the finest jousters in the 7K, if not the finest himself. Perhaps he could be thought of as first among equals. Selmy and Dayne being the other "equals."

Actually, I happen to agree with you that your theory doesn't need a fresh look so much as a fresh start.

When I pointed out Rhaegar's pre-HH jousting record you suggested he could have been cheating in those tourneys too, as a way to dismiss his excellent jousting record. Because that record is problematic for your theory, as it erases any motive for Rhaegar to use a double in the finals against Selmy. Put simply, if Rhaegar is more or less as good a jouster as Selmy, which is exactly what the record suggests, then there's no reason for Rhaegar to use a double in his place, and your theory falls apart.

Some things in these theories are more musings than out right stating this is for sure what happened. So we know he won. Period. What ever the reasons. See how useless it is? Doesn't change who the Knight of the Laughing Tree was, or any evidence that Rhaegar would love Lyanna when he doesn't show love to any woman. It was hard to even find him a bride and the one he chose wasn't for love or duty. Argue around that all you want. 

[J. Stargaryen]

37 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Some things in these theories are more musings than out right stating this is for sure what happened. So we know he won. Period. What ever the reasons. See how useless it is? Doesn't change who the Knight of the Laughing Tree was, or any evidence that Rhaegar would love Lyanna when he doesn't show love to any woman. It was hard to even find him a bride and the one he chose wasn't for love or duty. Argue around that all you want. 

Okay, but you claim this scenario ended with Mance crowning Lyanna, the lady he loved. Except now you're admitting that Rhaegar (might have?) crowned her. Which then becomes a problem for any not-Rhaegar+Lyanna=Jon theories. Because, as is made obvious in the text, there's a link between blue roses and Stark maidens having children. 

Ned recalls that the room Lyanna died in smells of blood and roses. Later evidence strongly indicates the blood is from childbirth, and there's only one person in the story who gives Lyanna Stark roses, Prince Rhaegar. So that means the text links Lyanna Stark giving birth to one specific man, Rhaegar Targaryen. 

It follows quite directly that since Rhaegar gave Lyanna the roses, the phrase "blood and roses" indicates that Lyanna Stark gave birth to Rhaegar Targaryen's child.

[Bloodraven's Spider]

On February 4, 2018 at 1:23 AM, J. Stargaryen said:

Okay, but you claim this scenario ended with Mance crowning Lyanna, the lady he loved. Except now you're admitting that Rhaegar (might have?) crowned her. Which then becomes a problem for any not-Rhaegar+Lyanna=Jon theories. Because, as is made obvious in the text, there's a link between blue roses and Stark maidens having children. 

Ned recalls that the room Lyanna died in smells of blood and roses. Later evidence strongly indicates the blood is from childbirth, and there's only one person in the story who gives Lyanna Stark roses, Prince Rhaegar. So that means the text links Lyanna Stark giving birth to one specific man, Rhaegar Targaryen. 

It follows quite directly that since Rhaegar gave Lyanna the roses, the phrase "blood and roses" indicates that Lyanna Stark gave birth to Rhaegar Targaryen's child.

This is correct except the child is Aegon. Jon is Ned's

[AlaskanSandman]

On 2/3/2018 at 10:23 PM, J. Stargaryen said:

Okay, but you claim this scenario ended with Mance crowning Lyanna, the lady he loved. Except now you're admitting that Rhaegar (might have?) crowned her. Which then becomes a problem for any not-Rhaegar+Lyanna=Jon theories. Because, as is made obvious in the text, there's a link between blue roses and Stark maidens having children. 

Ned recalls that the room Lyanna died in smells of blood and roses. Later evidence strongly indicates the blood is from childbirth, and there's only one person in the story who gives Lyanna Stark roses, Prince Rhaegar. So that means the text links Lyanna Stark giving birth to one specific man, Rhaegar Targaryen. 

It follows quite directly that since Rhaegar gave Lyanna the roses, the phrase "blood and roses" indicates that Lyanna Stark gave birth to Rhaegar Targaryen's child.

Sorry, old thread and some of this was talked about here and worked over. Like Mance possibly having glamoured as Rhaegar. Something i found a quote to about Mance seeming to unfamiliar with glamouring. So Mance's actions there are likely in line with what LynnS thinks with Mance being the Knight of the Laughing Tree and Rhaegar finding him. Them making some sort of deal. Rhaegar crowning Lyanna for Mance while Mance backs out so Rhaegar can win to look viable to his Lords in usurping his father. The actual kidnap of Lyanna would have been by Mance though while Rhaegar went south with Arthur to look after Ashara who is later knocked up by Eddard or something of the sorts. Im still working it out and how things might mirror. This is all covered in a new 5 part thread that works through everything of importance leading up to Rhaegar and the claims he kidnapped her. This is working off of apparent mirrors in the story and following them to what path they may lead. Some is purely speculation as some even goes against some of my prior thoughts. Though some of these mirrors are hard to ignore and i thought worth the exploration as you know, may be we all dont have it right yet. Ive seen some of the same ideas banged around so maybe this is at least a fresh look at the events while still trying to use clues laid out in the books. As such, somethings do change as i do listen to people when they constructively bring up good points. 

And all those other things your talking about is coming from Eddard who barely remembers the events of back then and may even  be mixing information, as people do tend to do when remembering things. My brother still blames me for things he did. George has told us not to trust his dreams at least, and Eddard mentions not having remembered any of it when talking about how "they" found him. So what ever he is remembering may just be something some one told him, mixed with real memories. It's rather hard to say for sure.

[Ygrain]

2 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

And all those other things your talking about is coming from Eddard who barely remembers the events of back then and may even  be mixing information, as people do tend to do when remembering things.

That is a blatant lie. Nowhere does he state such a thing.

 

2 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

 

George has told us not to trust his dreams at least,

He says no such thing. He says that dreams are not always literal. That is not the same thing.

 

2 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

and Eddard mentions not having remembered any of it when talking about how "they" found him. So what ever he is remembering may just be something some one told him, mixed with real memories. It's rather hard to say for sure.

He doesn't remember "they" coming into the room and Howland taking Lyanna's hand out of his. He makes it very clear that this was a black-out caused by deep shock at Lyanna's passing. He remembers clearly what had happened before as well as afterwards. So, please, either go and re-read AGOT because you don't remember it very well, or stop making things up.