OtherFromAnotherMother Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 5 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said: Did Qhorin loose his hand to Valyrian steel? This almost seems like he's telling Jon that he knows how sharp it is by showing him how, his hand. The sharpness of Jon's sword was a conversation Qhorin and Jon had several times when Qhorin knew they were going to get caught by the Wildlings. Qhorin knew Jon was going to have to kill him to play out Jon's role as the turncloak. Quote ...When he slept, he did not dream; not of wolves, nor his brothers, nor anything. Even dreams cannot live up here, he told himself. "Is your sword sharp, Jon Snow?" asked Qhorin Halfhand across the flickering fire. Quote But when they emerged back into the light long hours later, the eagle was waiting for them, perched on a dead tree a hundred feet up the slope. Ghost went bounding up the rocks after it, but the bird flapped its wings and took to the air. Qhorin's mouth tightened as he followed its flight with his eyes. "Here is as good a place as any to make a stand," he declared. "The mouth of the cave shelters us from above, and they cannot get behind us without passing through the mountain. Is your sword sharp, Jon Snow?" "Yes," he said. The very next sentence after your quote gives you the answer. Quote The light was already fading in Qhorin's eyes. ". . . sharp," he said, lifting his maimed fingers. Then his hand fell, and he was gone. He knew, he thought numbly. He knew what they would ask of me. He thought of Samwell Tarly then, of Grenn and Dolorous Edd, of Pyp and Toad back at Castle Black. Had he lost them all, as he had lost Bran and Rickon and Robb? Who was he now? What was he? This is about Qhorin anyways. What would it have to do with Mance going to Dorne? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LynnS Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 8 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said: Well this is all new and speculative but its line to Melisandre about having drank summer wine and tasted the Dornishman's wife seemed like him saying he had, though i know this all is loose maybe. It all just kind of came to me the other night talking to @LynnS about Harrenhal and after just doing a thread on Bael. The quotes above that i used i think help show some of this idea, as when he first meets Jon even, despite having finished the song, repeats that last part to Jon. Plus all the 13 nods in the other thread pointing to certain things connecting Jon and possibly the original Bael and to Jaehaery's time. All of which i think is Matin's way of calling attention to these events and people. So it's not out right stated that he has ever been south, it would make sense. That was in a discussion about the identity of the KoLT and who Howland takes note of at the tournament. Among them a black brother who gave a speech. We don't know the identity of the recruiter, likely Yoren although he may not have been there on his own. There is mention of a black brother singing in another POV although I can't find the reference. The question was raised about Mance being at the tournament and disguising himself as the KoLT. The possibility that GRRM is hiding the knight in plain sight and that it was Mance's wish that Rhaegar give Lyanna the crown of roses in lieu of horses, armor and glory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlaskanSandman Posted January 10, 2018 Author Share Posted January 10, 2018 1 hour ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said: The sharpness of Jon's sword was a conversation Qhorin and Jon had several times when Qhorin knew they were going to get caught by the Wildlings. Qhorin knew Jon was going to have to kill him to play out Jon's role as the turncloak. The very next sentence after your quote gives you the answer. This is about Qhorin anyways. What would it have to do with Mance going to Dorne? Not really hahah i know what they were planning and i realize like all things can be used manifold. Like Mance rose. Martin could have said Mance stood up or any other word to not use rose symbolism around a guy already tied to Blue Roses by way of his love of the legend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlaskanSandman Posted January 10, 2018 Author Share Posted January 10, 2018 51 minutes ago, LynnS said: That was in a discussion about the identity of the KoLT and who Howland takes note of at the tournament. Among them a black brother who gave a speech. We don't know the identity of the recruiter, likely Yoren although he may not have been there on his own. There is mention of a black brother singing in another POV although I can't find the reference. The question was raised about Mance being at the tournament and disguising himself as the KoLT. The possibility that GRRM is hiding the knight in plain sight and that it was Mance's wish that Rhaegar give Lyanna the crown of roses in lieu of horses, armor and glory. That would be a good find Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlaskanSandman Posted January 10, 2018 Author Share Posted January 10, 2018 If there is really a parallel to Bael then Daenerys and Jon would be the children born to Mance. By Lyanna and Ashara? Did Mance snag both girls? O.o Just Lyanna? http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/150006-bael-queen-alyssaneprincess-gael/ Im totally speculating here but check the one thread then let me know any thought tied to this thread about Mance and Jon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlaskanSandman Posted January 10, 2018 Author Share Posted January 10, 2018 Did Bael take both the daughter of the North (Stark) and Alysanne (south)? As Aegon had Rhaenys and Visenya? Did Mance take Lyanna and Ashara Dayne? and if so? Where was Rhaegar who was obsessed with prophecy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlaskanSandman Posted January 10, 2018 Author Share Posted January 10, 2018 Quote "Aye," she said, "but the gods hate kinslayers, even when they kill unknowing. When Lord Stark returned from the battle and his mother saw Bael's head upon his spear, she threw herself from a tower in her grief. Her son did not long outlive her. One o' his lords peeled the skin off him and wore him for a cloak." So if everything is a mirror so far. Who is going to skin Jon or Dany? Roose? Ramsey? Arya? The Faceless Men? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bael's Bastard Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 Crazy how people spend so much time quoting from the books, only to completely ignore what they are quoting, except to twist it beyond recognition, and interpret it in ways that have no connection to what they are quoting. There isn't a shred of resemblance between this crackpot and the books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlaskanSandman Posted January 10, 2018 Author Share Posted January 10, 2018 38 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said: Crazy how people spend so much time quoting from the books, only to completely ignore what they are quoting, except to twist it beyond recognition, and interpret it in ways that have no connection to what they are quoting. There isn't a shred of resemblance between this crackpot and the books. I knowwwwww rightttttt????? Crazyyyyyy!!! Wank wank Coming from Bael's Bastard that's just ironic on top of rude and hurtful haha jk Even after i include the paragraph its generally from as not to give the sense of cherry picking sentences to fit my idea? lol beyond your opinion of such, there is a cyclical aspect of Jon's arch to that of Bael's possible son, let alone Mance to Bael. Like i've said before. Mance rose could easily have been written as Mance stood up, Mance hoisted to his feet, Mance boosted to his feet, Mance lifted to his feet, Mance mounted to feet, Mance raised to his standing, Mance climbed to his feet, Mance rocketed to his feet, Mance sprung to his feet, Mance sprouted to the sky as he stood up, Mance got to his feet, but no, he chose Mance rose. GRRM could have gone with any thing other than rose symbolism, but he didn't. On top of the many other clues that clearly parallel Bael and his son. But ok Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlaskanSandman Posted January 10, 2018 Author Share Posted January 10, 2018 53 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said: Crazy how people spend so much time quoting from the books, only to completely ignore what they are quoting, except to twist it beyond recognition, and interpret it in ways that have no connection to what they are quoting. There isn't a shred of resemblance between this crackpot and the books. I could keep going too, Mance lurched to his feet, Mance stammered as he got to his feet, Mance stammered upward, Once to his feet Mance.., He got up, he stood up, he got to his feet, he stood, Once having stood up, Once having got up, once having got to his feet, once, Like a tree he sprouted, like a ladder he climbed to his feet, peaking to his feet, peaking to his full height as he stood, like a mountain he rose, he flung up to his feet, he flew to his feet, he jutted to his feet, and on and on and on and on i could go. Especially if i have a theme in mind or a relation i wanna get across, i can really choose my words very carefully for everything i write. It's not like speaking or writing on a forum like this where your just freely pouring out your thoughts. There is always time to reconsider what you have written until it's published. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlaskanSandman Posted January 10, 2018 Author Share Posted January 10, 2018 1 hour ago, Bael's Bastard said: Crazy how people spend so much time quoting from the books, only to completely ignore what they are quoting, except to twist it beyond recognition, and interpret it in ways that have no connection to what they are quoting. There isn't a shred of resemblance between this crackpot and the books. What parts more specifically do you disagree with though? haha also have you seen my other thread tied to this? bael-queen-alyssaneprincess-gael They're kind of tied together in my crack pot speculation here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clegane'sPup Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 7 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said: The sharpness of Jon's sword was a conversation Qhorin and Jon had several times when Qhorin knew they were going to get caught by the Wildlings. Qhorin knew Jon was going to have to kill him to play out Jon's role as the turncloak. I agree. 1 hour ago, Bael's Bastard said: Crazy how people spend so much time quoting from the books, only to completely ignore what they are quoting, except to twist it beyond recognition, and interpret it in ways that have no connection to what they are quoting. There isn't a shred of resemblance between this crackpot and the books. I agree. 1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said: I knowwwwww rightttttt????? Crazyyyyyy!!! Wank wank There seems to me that there are a few things going on ---- you are pranking, you are bored, your brain is not working properly or you are looking for validation or argument. Are you aware that LC Qorglye was most likely Dornish? Let me go back the what say stuff ---- what say Qorglye brought the song with him when he went to the Wall. I don't know why Qorglye decided to take the black. I don't know his back story. The Dornishman's wife was as fair as the sun, and her kisses were warmer than spring. But the Dornishman's blade was made of black steel, and its kiss was a terrible thing. The Dornishman's wife would sing as she bathed, in a voice that was sweet as a peach, But the Dornishman's blade had a song of its own, and a bite sharp and cold as a leech. As he lay on the ground with the darkness around, and the taste of his blood on his tongue, His brothers knelt by him and prayed him a prayer, and he smiled and he laughed and he sung, "Brothers, oh brothers, my days here are done, the Dornishman's taken my life, But what does it matter, for all men must die, and I've tasted the Dornishman's wife! I took the below quote directly off the wiki site. Easiest and simplest. I can’t find the words to ole Bael’s song of the winter rose legend. It seems to me ole Bael was a wildling. According to legend, Bael the Bard climbed the Wall, took the kingsroad, and entered Winterfell as a singer under the name Sygerrik of Skagos. There he sang until midnight for Lord Brandon Stark. Impressed by Bael's skills as a singer, Brandon asked him what he wanted as a reward. Bael answered by requesting the most beautiful flower blooming in Winterfell's gardens. As the blue winter roses were just blooming, Brandon agreed to offer him one. The following morning the single virgin daughter of the lord had disappeared. In her bed was the rose Bael had received from her father./ Your thread title is ---- Jon, Mance's blue rose and the Dayne heiress ---- From what I have read of your theories I am a bit confused especially with this one. What is it that you are trying to convey? Sum it up for me, please, in five sentences of 20 or less words. If you come back with a remark that you don't have to explain nuttin' to nobody Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorian Martell's son Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 10 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said: But why hold your hand up? and say sharp when your throat was just cut? Because you have just been cut by the sharpest blade in the world. It is remarkable, and you are about to die 10 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said: and yea i dont need it flat out stated that Mance went south. You do though. Otherwise it is pretty baseless with just a song as the reason. 10 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said: That's right up there with the likely hood that Rhaegar and Ashara spoke. There is a high chance really.] Not at all. Rhaegar and Ashara were seen at the same tourney by a whole swath of characters. Barristan, the Starks, Howland, King Bob, all were there and saw Rhaegar and Ashara. Nobody saw Mance, and your reason for saying he was there is a song he sings beyond the wall, where he was born and returned to after he left the watch, that he didn't desert until over a decade after Harrenhal happened. That means Zero chance. 10 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said: So any body who theorized that before it happened (Since there was clues) wasn't wrong to wonder. Of course not, but since we have seen Roose stab Rob in the heart, that is given, where your "Mance at Harrenhal" Theory has nothing. Not text, no witnesses, no corroborating conspirators. You are using the absence of anything to say there is something. It does not work like that. 10 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said: Now if i write a book about it or a story after we find out for sure that it's not the case, then it's fan fiction, for now it's just speculation. You are literally writing a different/Alternate story that the one we are reading. That is fan fic. 11 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said: Though i do think it's intriguing thought, and not near as far fetched as Qhorin and Mance actually being some body important from the past (Rhaegar, Gerold, Arthur, or Oswell). Plus he is still alive and some how still important to the story. There are a whole host of reasons why the secret identity theories do not work but I do not want to list all of them in this thread. 11 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said: Mance was a brother to Qhorin and the watch do come south for men. Further the timing of Yoren coming south and the timing of Harrenhal are roughly the same, which may imply when they come seeking men. Where does it say that Yoren was at Harrenhal for the tourney? I could see him being there, but it is not explicitly stated 11 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said: Plus Alliser Thorne has been on the wall since 283 when the war was lost. So he knew Mance also for at least 5 years (time Mance saw Jon in Winterfell first). So Alliser Thorne not trusting Jon that the Half Hand asked him to turn to the side of Mance would make sense if Alliser knew Mance went south and knew that Rhaegar wasn't the one who took Lyanna. Since Alliser was on the Targaryen side. If Mance went south, and members of the watch like Allister was aware of it. Mance would get his head cut off. So no, that argument fails in every way. 11 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said: Plus, given the possibility that Lyanna was the one to repair his cape, would mean they knew each other prior to Harrenhal. Lyanna was not a wildling. There is a less than zero chance that Lyanna repaired his cloak. In fact, the idea that she did is more than laughable. 11 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said: As opposed to say Rhaegar and Lyanna who just met. Would Rhaegar or Lyanna be so rash as to run off with some one they just met and barely if at all interacted with (Only interacted if she is Knight of Laughing Tree, and the one moment he gave her the crown). If you read your world book, it clearly states that Rhaegar ran off with Lyanna at least a year after the tourney of the false spring. Their interactions are yet to be determined, but since we have multiple accounts of them together, we can wait to be shown their interactions, as opposed to writing new ones that were never in the story. 11 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said: Even if Lyanna was the Knight of the Laughing Tree, how much time could they have had together before Rhaegar had to get back to his father and the Tourney so it could continue? Rhaegar was ordered by his king to find the mystery knight. He could have searched after the tilts had ended that day 11 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said: Rhaegar who ended up some how beating Barristan who had already bested Rhaegar at Storm's End. It even confuses Barristan the Bold. Idk I do not think you understand how fighting works. There are a whole host of variables that affect the outcome of combat. Skill, size, quality of weapons, traction, vision and luck. There are tons of examples of modern day fighters who are defeated by someone they had bested in the past. Rhaegar had Lyanna's favor. I carried him. Like how Lynesse's favor carried Jorah after Balon's rebellion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorian Martell's son Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 11 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said: Well idk, how long did Tyrion make Alliser Thorne wait in K.L.? A fort night at least seems about right at least as the hand had completely rotted that Alliser had brought with him. No one killed Alliser of claimed he had deserted. That's a rather long road with many unexpected interruptions id imagine. And noone has ever said that Mance was sent on a trip south of the neck. There is not mention, hint, suggestion or anything, from the watch or mance. Only a song. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorian Martell's son Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 11 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said: Ive always just excepted Rhaegar was Jon's father based simply on the fact that if they were locked in a Tower, there would be a child possibly. Jon seemed the only person of questioned parentage at the time so it seemed quite logical. Ned is too honorable and i still think he is. Though the more i look into it the more it doesn't seem to add up right. Lets assume im wrong about Daenerys being the child of Rhaegar and Ashara and is actually the child of Aerys and Rhaella. Either way, she is still a child of fire. The story has always seemed to be about Dany either fighting Jon, or hooking up with Jon. It's either one or the other. And this makes sense, since Dany is Fire. This would mean Jon is Ice. Ice and Fire. Yet, if Jon is the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna, then he is the child of Ice and Fire. And there is no parralel to Dany really, not at all. Other than Jon has a little fire in him and Dany is full fire. So them fighting or hooking up isn't really Ice and Fire. Ice and Fire coming together should be the child of Jon and Daenerys. The Stallion who mounts the world. Jon is only Ice by any theory i have ever seen, if he is the child of Mance and Lyanna. Not Eddard and Ashara, Rhaegar and Lyanna, Brandon and Ashara, or any other one ive seen. This is literally the only way he is pure Ice as Daenerys is pure fire. Period. It would seem Edit- Further this would put both Jon and Daenerys' parents at the center of their story arch and pop up in each of them. Mance in Jons (never Rhaegar), and Rhaegar in Daenerys (Mentions Rhaegar alot and Aerys only a couple times) Jon does not need to be "Pure Ice." He is literally the song of ice and fire and it fits the story perfectly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ralphis Baratheon Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 22 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said: Hahaha never heard this take before. Got more i can read? Sure. The reason why Doran was not surprised or mad when Arianne told him she slept with a bastard below her station when she was 14 was because she takes after her mother, Mellario, who slept with Mance who was below Mellario's station. When Arianne was young she fantasized about an outlaw stealing her away and sleeping with her. Mance is free folk and free folk steal women who want to be stolen and sleep with them. Which is another thing Arianne has in common with her mother Mellario, who Mance stole away and had an affair with while she was married to the Dornish man Doran. Mance is not just bold, he's very bold. He's the guy who snuck into Winterfell when it's Lord(Ned) was feasting his King(Robert), all while Mance was fugitive. Not only that but he took the position of a musician, which would have attracted attention. So why only sleep with a common Dornish man's wife when he can sleep with the ruling Prince of Dorne's wife? Also as Doran's wife Mellario would have access to the very best Dornish wine. Further into the rabbit hole? If you go with Mance being Jon Snow's father and Arianne taking after her mother in both appearance and personality. Then go off the notion that history repeats itself in some form or fashion Jon Snow may end up having an affair with Arianne at some point like their parents did. Like I previously stated when Arianne was a girl she fantasized an outlaw with "black eyes" would steal her away and sleep with her. Jon Snow's eyes are a grey so dark they sometimes appear to be black and he has stolen at least one girl, Ygritte. Arianne loves bastards, she sleeps with at least one and is closer to her bastard cousins then her true born siblings. There is other stuff that some people think foreshadows a Jon Snow/ Arianne future relationship but that's not really the point. The point here is that the tale of Mellario's beauty and rocking hot bod reached the Wall and Mance heard and couldn't resist. He loved that stupid song so much and wanted to relive it so when he sang it he could put all his heart into it. I must warm you though, I'm 70% sure that I'm probably wrong about at least 3/5 of this. But you never know though! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlaskanSandman Posted January 11, 2018 Author Share Posted January 11, 2018 8 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said: Jon does not need to be "Pure Ice." He is literally the song of ice and fire and it fits the story perfectly. Before i even try to respond to most of this, have you seen the other two threads that tie to this and help explain the narrative beats? http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/150021-bloodraven-nights-king-and-last-hero/ Bloodraven and 13 hints that led to Bael and Queen Alysanne http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/150006-bael-queen-alyssaneprincess-gael/ Bael the Bard who kidnapped a Stark woman and Queen Alysanne and left them both with child. Edit- Yes i need to rework a thread to explain all of this in order but it takes time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlaskanSandman Posted January 11, 2018 Author Share Posted January 11, 2018 1 hour ago, Ralphis Baratheon said: Sure. The reason why Doran was not surprised or mad when Arianne told him she slept with a bastard below her station when she was 14 was because she takes after her mother, Mellario, who slept with Mance who was below Mellario's station. When Arianne was young she fantasized about an outlaw stealing her away and sleeping with her. Mance is free folk and free folk steal women who want to be stolen and sleep with them. Which is another thing Arianne has in common with her mother Mellario, who Mance stole away and had an affair with while she was married to the Dornish man Doran. Mance is not just bold, he's very bold. He's the guy who snuck into Winterfell when it's Lord(Ned) was feasting his King(Robert), all while Mance was fugitive. Not only that but he took the position of a musician, which would have attracted attention. So why only sleep with a common Dornish man's wife when he can sleep with the ruling Prince of Dorne's wife? Also as Doran's wife Mellario would have access to the very best Dornish wine. Further into the rabbit hole? If you go with Mance being Jon Snow's father and Arianne taking after her mother in both appearance and personality. Then go off the notion that history repeats itself in some form or fashion Jon Snow may end up having an affair with Arianne at some point like their parents did. Like I previously stated when Arianne was a girl she fantasized an outlaw with "black eyes" would steal her away and sleep with her. Jon Snow's eyes are a grey so dark they sometimes appear to be black and he has stolen at least one girl, Ygritte. Arianne loves bastards, she sleeps with at least one and is closer to her bastard cousins then her true born siblings. There is other stuff that some people think foreshadows a Jon Snow/ Arianne future relationship but that's not really the point. The point here is that the tale of Mellario's beauty and rocking hot bod reached the Wall and Mance heard and couldn't resist. He loved that stupid song so much and wanted to relive it so when he sang it he could put all his heart into it. I must warm you though, I'm 70% sure that I'm probably wrong about at least 3/5 of this. But you never know though! Hhaha that's ok. I apparently spout all sorts of non sense hahaha give the bird and march to your own drum hahah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrettyPig Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 9 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said: The Dornishman's wife was as fair as the sun, and her kisses were warmer than spring. But the Dornishman's blade was made of black steel, and its kiss was a terrible thing. The Dornishman's wife would sing as she bathed, in a voice that was sweet as a peach, But the Dornishman's blade had a song of its own, and a bite sharp and cold as a leech. As he lay on the ground with the darkness around, and the taste of his blood on his tongue, His brothers knelt by him and prayed him a prayer, and he smiled and he laughed and he sung, "Brothers, oh brothers, my days here are done, the Dornishman's taken my life, But what does it matter, for all men must die, and I've tasted the Dornishman's wife! You know what I found was a fun exercise? Figuring out what new meaning the song takes on when you switch up the Dornishman’s wife with the Dornishman’s blade. Also neat to think about the significance of a group of “brothers” gathered around saying a “prayer” for their fallen comrade, and the dying man replying with “valar morghulis”, basically. Not very Westerosi-sounding, is it? What an odd combination of elements... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlaskanSandman Posted January 11, 2018 Author Share Posted January 11, 2018 3 hours ago, PrettyPig said: You know what I found was a fun exercise? Figuring out what new meaning the song takes on when you switch up the Dornishman’s wife with the Dornishman’s blade. Also neat to think about the significance of a group of “brothers” gathered around saying a “prayer” for their fallen comrade, and the dying man replying with “valar morghulis”, basically. Not very Westerosi-sounding, is it? What an odd combination of elements... I did a new thread leaving the parentage open and instead focusing on the set up instead and leaving open how it may or may not mirror Dany and Jon. @Ralphis Baratheon @Dorian Martell's son @Bael's Bastard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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