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Bakker LIII - Sranc and File

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I think the whitewashing is somewhat absurd as a complaint, given the very diverse cast that was expanded from the book itself. I get why they complained (Kovacs in a white body) but it really isn't reasonable.

The violence towards women, sexualized violence in particular, is a major component and plot point of the storyline, and that hasn't changed a bit. If anything it's become even worse than the books, with one notable exception. 

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33 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

I think the whitewashing is somewhat absurd as a complaint, given the very diverse cast that was expanded from the book itself. I get why they complained (Kovacs in a white body) but it really isn't reasonable.

The violence towards women, sexualized violence in particular, is a major component and plot point of the storyline, and that hasn't changed a bit. If anything it's become even worse than the books, with one notable exception. 

Oh I'm sure 99 percent of it is absurd, my point was that I still think a straight Bakker adaptation would piss people off.

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I'm reminded of another major issue of TAE. Bakker constantly claimed the sex / gender stuff was a major internal theme, one that shouldn't be criticized until the series was complete, as he was intentionally evoking gender oppression to... [wait for it!]. Problem was, nothing was illuminated by the end, and all the sexual violence wasn't given any context, rendering it borderline-exploitative / crapsack world building. (I use "borderline" because Esme's sections, at least in the first trilogy, made me sympathetic towards her. But Bakker tooted his own horn about how he was radically changing literature, and that toot sounds like a wet fart in hindsight).  

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4 hours ago, kuenjato said:

I'm reminded of another major issue of TAE. Bakker constantly claimed the sex / gender stuff was a major internal theme, one that shouldn't be criticized until the series was complete, as he was intentionally evoking gender oppression to... [wait for it!]. Problem was, nothing was illuminated by the end, and all the sexual violence wasn't given any context, rendering it borderline-exploitative / crapsack world building. (I use "borderline" because Esme's sections, at least in the first trilogy, made me sympathetic towards her. But Bakker tooted his own horn about how he was radically changing literature, and that toot sounds like a wet fart in hindsight).  

It's shocking how much it didn't matter.  The only thing I can even think of is that he was trying to touch on "but I have these characters Mimara and Serwa that have more agency" but it still didn't mean shit to the world or the philosophy.

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Where did the phrase "layers of revelation" actually originate? Did Bakker say that in some interview or was it from an overactive fanboy?

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If they ever did make a Second Apocalypse adaptation, I think the magic should look kind of phony and ridiculous. It's compared in-universe to a child scribbling across a master painting, so it would actually make more sense for at least the Anagogic sorcery to look bizarre and fake in display. Gnostic sorcery could be all fancy lines and geometric patterns. 

8 hours ago, kuenjato said:

Problem was, nothing was illuminated by the end, and all the sexual violence wasn't given any context, rendering it borderline-exploitative / crapsack world building. (I use "borderline" because Esme's sections, at least in the first trilogy, made me sympathetic towards her. But Bakker tooted his own horn about how he was radically changing literature, and that toot sounds like a wet fart in hindsight). 

It took him way too long to bring up the idea that the Hundred and Ciphrang are possibly stoking violence and bad behavior in the World, making it worse than we'd expect if there was no Outside. 

Edited by Fall Bass

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3 hours ago, Fall Bass said:

If they ever did make a Second Apocalypse adaptation, I think the magic should look kind of phony and ridiculous. It's compared in-universe to a child scribbling across a master painting, so it would actually make more sense for at least the Anagogic sorcery to look bizarre and fake in display. Gnostic sorcery could be all fancy lines and geometric patterns. 

It took him way too long to bring up the idea that the Hundred and Ciphrang are possibly stoking violence and bad behavior in the World, making it worse than we'd expect if there was no Outside. 

Possibly like a kind of graffiti - perhaps a mix of medieval imagery style from old texts, but since say a dragons head is in a three dimensional environment and rapidly created, it kind of looks like it was sprayed onto reality. Making it look like medieval paintings but badly done around the edges would lend to the idea of it being a corruption of gods song.

And yeah, the Gnosis should look kinda like Tron.

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16 hours ago, kuenjato said:

I'm reminded of another major issue of TAE. Bakker constantly claimed the sex / gender stuff was a major internal theme, one that shouldn't be criticized until the series was complete, as he was intentionally evoking gender oppression to... [wait for it!]. Problem was, nothing was illuminated by the end, and all the sexual violence wasn't given any 

Bakker probably thinks he did illuminate everything with the Dragon. 

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On 1/31/2018 at 6:06 AM, Let's Get Kraken said:

Because that'd be so inconsistent with the rest of the story?

C'mon, all of the evidence for Shae possessing the Dunsult is that they kinda-sorta talk in order, until they don't. I find the Daario = Benjen theories more convincing.

That's not all the evidence.   There's something to the effect that "it didn't matter which spoke, because Truth spoke with a single Voice."  Dunyain is the Kunuiric (or however you spell it) word for Truth and Voice was what they called souls in The False Sun.  The line is wordplay - "the Dunyain spoke with a single soul."

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I think you've probably hit on something thematic there, even if Shae isn't possessing the dunsult.

One truth, one soul - the god. Shattered.

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12 hours ago, Ajûrbkli said:

That's not all the evidence.   There's something to the effect that "it didn't matter which spoke, because Truth spoke with a single Voice."  Dunyain is the Kunuiric (or however you spell it) word for Truth and Voice was what they called souls in The False Sun.  The line is wordplay - "the Dunyain spoke with a single soul."

While my guess is that the Shûnsult (?) theory is correct, this kind of theorizing is very reminiscent of all the old theories on this forum that didn't payoff. 

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On 1/11/2018 at 11:05 PM, Dora Vee said:

From what I've heard, he's been working on the third trilogy for quite some time. The question is how it will end up published. He claims that the first book will focus on the Boy. TBH, I don't know if I will bother. 

I thought the last series was just going to be 2 books.  Do we know how many it will be?

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14 hours ago, WalterX said:

I thought the last series was just going to be 2 books.  Do we know how many it will be?

It depends on what he can ultimately get a publisher to agree to, I suppose. Bakker doesn't sound interested in trying out a self-publishing route (at least with books - he's self-published the Atrocity Tales on his site). 

Edited by Fall Bass

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23 hours ago, WalterX said:

I thought the last series was just going to be 2 books.  Do we know how many it will be?

I believe that's accurate to what RSB always said in the past, as in when he was still writing the Prince of Nothing. But he also said that the Aspect Emperor was supposed to be 3 books. And that a lot of things in the books would have a point. He says a lot of things that end up being less than factually accurate.

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1 hour ago, matt b said:

I believe that's accurate to what RSB always said in the past, as in when he was still writing the Prince of Nothing.

Yeah, they were all "supposed" to only be two books in the initial outline.  None ever stayed that contained.

Considering that Bakker said that he wanted to do a book on the fate of the nameless, crab-handed boy and that this was something he wanted to write first, so as to not seem like a pointless addendum to TNG itself, I can't imagine there being any less than 3 books forthcoming, but more likely, 4.

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5 hours ago, .H. said:

Yeah, they were all "supposed" to only be two books in the initial outline.  None ever stayed that contained.

Considering that Bakker said that he wanted to do a book on the fate of the nameless, crab-handed boy and that this was something he wanted to write first, so as to not seem like a pointless addendum to TNG itself, I can't imagine there being any less than 3 books forthcoming, but more likely, 4.

As he refuses to consider self-publication, I doubt it will be 4. I sorta have doubts it will be even one, given the general reception to the latter books of TAE, though he might be able to wiggle in a book-by-book contract with someone large, figuring their might be just enough RSB fanboys to turn a profit with a low advance. Not sure, though. Already tanked a book with Tor, right? Not sure who else would fit that picture.

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5 hours ago, .H. said:

Considering that Bakker said that he wanted to do a book on the fate of the nameless, crab-handed boy and that this was something he wanted to write first, so as to not seem like a pointless addendum to TNG itself

So if the next book was released after TNG it would seem like a pointless addendum? Did Bakker say that? Because if that's the case he better release it as a standalone or it will be a pointless addendum to the series as a whole anyway like most of TAE.

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11 hours ago, Hello World said:

So if the next book was released after TNG it would seem like a pointless addendum? Did Bakker say that? Because if that's the case he better release it as a standalone or it will be a pointless addendum to the series as a whole anyway like most of TAE.

I had my wording slightly off, but the quote of his quote was, "He said at Zaudunyanicon straight up that if he wrote it after the other two or more books of TNG that people would think it a cheap add-on so he wants to do it first."

Which spurred my thought that it would be an Eärwa version of Blood Meridian and that the crab-handed boy is not a savior or a hero, but rather, another survivor trying to survive.  Just like the nameless kid in Blood Meridian, he wouldn't be a traditional hero or anything, but rather an exposition of the world and the trials he goes through, people he meets.  I could easily be wrong, but my idea would be that this is why it would be written first, so that it doesn't seem like some random "extra" content tacked onto the end.  I mean, it might in any case anyway, but that was just my take-away.

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