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Tourney at Harrenhal: Forfeit/ransom after Brandon Stark's loss to Rhaegar Targaryen


Bael's Bastard

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3 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Daemon II Blackfyre let all his vanquished opponents keep their stuff without them having to ransom it back when he was looking to overthrow the current King. Perhaps Rhaegar was just as generous at HH.

I think this is probably the most accurate theory.  Do Princes even take ransoms?  As far as I can tell, Baelor Breakspear didn't take one from Ser Arlyn and Prince Valarr didn't claim any at Ashford.  As stated above, Daemon II didn't take ransoms either.

I think it's entirely likely that most Princes/"Kings" don't take ransoms from their subjects as it would probably be considered "un royal".

Now, if we want to get more conspiracy minded, it's possible that Rhaeghar might have requested a meeting with each of his vanquished foes, but I don't think that armour, horses or gold were Rhaeghar's goals.

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8 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Daemon II Blackfyre let all his vanquished opponents keep their stuff without them having to ransom it back when he was looking to overthrow the current King. Perhaps Rhaegar was just as generous at HH.

Agreed. And John the Fiddler was my first thought when I thought of the ransom aspect of things. If we forget about conspiracies for a moment, ransoming serves to put two people who don't look like they've had any interaction, in the same room together, talking. 

That's the idea.

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4 hours ago, PrinceHenryris said:

Now, if we want to get more conspiracy minded, it's possible that Rhaeghar might have requested a meeting with each of his vanquished foes, but I don't think that armour, horses or gold were Rhaeghar's goals.

I’m of the same mind, actually.   There was no financial need for it, it would be more of a formality than anything, but using said formality as a chance to meet and do the secret handshakes is intriguing. 

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21 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

Tense.  There was already tension between the Targaryens and the Starks.  Rickards plan to tie his house to the Baratheon and the Tully's is so transparent for anyone.  It's obvious what that alliance would do.  It was a tense meeting and if Rhaegar had any balls he should have killed Brandon during the jousting.  King Aerys should have ambushed the Starks on the King's Road and made sure the jackal and his pups never made it back to Winter fell.

I don't see any evidence of tension between the Targaryens and Starks prior to the Harrenhal tourney. I would go so far as to suggest that Rhaegar and his crowning of Lyanna at the end of the Harrenhal tourney was 100% responsible for Aerys's suspicions turning toward House Stark. Prior to that, the most notable event we know of between them is Lord Rickard's visit to King's Landing in 264, which is said to have awakened Aerys's interest in the North. And there is absolutely no reason to believe that either Lord Rickard or Lord Steffon had any reason to be hostile or defensive toward Aerys in around 271 when Ned (and at some point Robert) was sent to the Eyrie.

You are projecting backwards with hindsight, not examining things in the time and context in which they actually occurred. Lord Steffon Baratheon was Aerys's cousin and one of his oldest and best friends, and unlike Tywin, he does not appear to have ever fallen out with Aerys. Not only did Aerys entrust Steffon with finding a bride for Rhaegar in 278, years after Rickard and Steffon had first fostered their sons with Jon Arryn, but it was rumored that he had intended to dismiss Tywin and name Steffon his Hand before his untimely death.

In other words, the very first political move we know of Rickard making with his children was to foster his son in around 271-272 with the son and heir of one of King Aerys's closest and most trusted friends and relatives, a man who Aerys had known since they were boys, a man who Aerys had been inseparable from as youths (together with Tywin), a man who Aerys had fought together with and become a man with on the Stepstones during the War of the Ninepenny Kings.

You would be hard pressed to come up with anyone Lord Rickard could have befriended that was closer to Aerys and the Iron Throne than Lord Steffon Baratheon and his family. Lord Steffon's mother was Aerys's aunt, and Lord Steffon's own aunt would have been Prince Duncan's queen had he not fallen for Jenny. Had Steffon produced a daughter rather than Robert or Stannis, there is a great chance Aerys would have looked no further for a bride for Rhaegar.

And for his part, Lord Robert appears to have been a loyal servant of the king all the way up to the Harrenhal tourney, at which point he had already been best friends with Ned for years, and long been betrothed to Lyanna. Robert was in fact one of two men noted to have sworn to unmask the Knight of the Laughing Tree, the other being one of Rhaegar's closest personal friends.. And we are told that he even outwardly brushed off Rhaegar's crowning of Lyanna, though it is claimed that this may have been when his heart hardened toward Rhaegar (though not necessarily Aerys).

The Tully's for their part were another house that owed their status as a Great House to the Targaryens, and in fact, Aerys's father Jaehaerys had been betrothed to Celia Tully before he ran off and married his sister Shaera. Simply put, the Tullys were one of the last houses that had been considered worthy to wed a Targaryen prince, and even become the queen of Jaehaerys had he not broken the betrothal to wed the sister he loved.

Furthermore, no matter how much their relationship had deteriorated over the years, Lord Tywin was still King Aerys's Hand when Lord Tully was negotiating with him to wed Jaime and Lysa,  It stretches credulity that Lord Hoster went to King's Landing and was actively negotiating an anti-Aerys or anti-Targaryen pact with Lord Tywin right under Aerys's nose. Especially when we know that Tywin himself, no matter how much his relationship with the king had deteriorated, was still holding out hope to wed his daughter Cersei to a Targaryen prince up to the very moment that Aerys named his son and heir Jaime to the Kingsguard.

Every single one of Lord Rickard's actions re: fostering Ned, and the betrothals of Lyanna and Brandon, can be easily explained by a desire to get closer to Aerys and the Targaryens, and to eventually have descendants of his on the Iron Throne, while attempts to spin these things as being offensive or defensive moves against Aerys or the Targaryens simply do not hold up to scrutiny. We know, of course, that these fosterings and betrothals made it easier for the rebel leaders to come together once threatened, but there is no indication these fosterings and betrothals were made with any such in intent.

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11 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Daemon II Blackfyre let all his vanquished opponents keep their stuff without them having to ransom it back when he was looking to overthrow the current King. Perhaps Rhaegar was just as generous at HH.

I don't think that is unlikely. But whatever the case, it gives us an implied face to face meeting between Rhaegar and Brandon after they jousted and before Rhaegar laid the crown of blue winter roses in Lyanna's lap, after which Brandon had to be restrained from confronting him. I find that to be very exciting.

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I don't think that is a significant issue, actually. If Brandon attended tourneys on a regular basis - which he may have done when visiting Ned and Robert in the Vale and the Riverlands - then he knew how that went, and it was likely not all that different in whatever tourneys they were in the North - Andal tourneys in the Manderly lands, Northern stuff elsewhere.

The idea that Brandon would have had some sort issue with losing his horse and armor during a tilt isn't all that likely. It is what happens when you ride in the lists.

As to Rhaegar's own participation in the tourney:

We have no idea of the way this tourney was organized. Considering that there was only one winner in the end it would have been closer to the Tourney of the Hand than the tourney of Ashford. But there is still the chance that you could enter the tourney whenever you wanted, in a similar fashion as you could at Ashford.

If we keep in mind that the mystery knight did show up during the tourney, and we only learn about Rhaegar entering the lists thereafter, chances are not that bad that Rhaegar actually didn't participate in the tourney from the beginning. For him, Harrenhal wasn't set up as a tourney but as a front to talk to the lords. And while Aerys' presence made the whole informal Great Council thing impossible, we do know that many people talked with each other both openly and secretly during the tourney.

If Rhaegar spent most of his waking hours preparing for and participating in the tourney he would have little to no time to actually do some talks.

If Lyanna triggered Rhaegar's desire to win the tourney - to crown her - then chances are not that bad he only entered the lists only after he had found out who the mystery knight was. Then he would also have ridden against Brandon thereafter. But if he was in the tourney from the beginning then there is simply no way of knowing when they rode against each other.

If all participants began riding in the tourney in the beginning - which would sort of make sense considering the insane amount of matches there would have been in a tourney this size - then Rhaegar and Brandon could easily enough have met each other before the mystery knight even showed up. The matches wouldn't have happened all on the same day. Far to the contrary, actually.

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