Lady Dacey Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 It struck me the first time she came up in the books. Obara. Could it be merely a coincidence? How familiar could GRRM be with African religion and mithology? I'm surely imagining things, I thought at first. But I did keep thinking about it. And now I cannot read her name and not picture a babalawo with his opele looking at the Obara Odu telling an Ikin. Allow me to clarify some thoughts... the traditional Yoruba religion is practiced in Africa around current-day Nigeria. It's said to be as old and humankind. Brazil and Cuba have developed different organized religions that worship the Youruba deities as well. In the tradicional cult of Ifa the babalawo is a priest - the literal translation is "father of secrets". In this tradition, the babalawo uses the opele to communicate with Orunmila, the god/deity of destiny. There are sixteen odus, which are "destinies" or "life paths". Each odu has sixteen smaller odus in it. The sixth of the main odus is OBARA. Each man or woman has a personal odu. Knowing your odu can give insight to your personality, your shortcomings, your qualities, the challenges you're likely to encounter throughout your life, the restrictions you must follow to have the blessing of the gods, etc. I'm obviously over-simplifying a complex and beautiful culture for the purpose of getting where I want to get as I believe most of the people in this forum aren't familiar with Yoruba mythology. We know for a fact GRRM draws a lot of inspiration from world mythology. Specially European, but there might be something indigenous American on his work as well. I don't know if he has any knowledge of African mythology, but why not? The similarities are stunning! I'll try to summarize: A person with Obara's destiny is first and foremost a warrior. It's associated with the male deities Ossossi, Sango and Logunede and the female deity Oshun. Hunters and warriors and kings. Obara the odu is regal - even if humble born, there's kingship in that person somehow. In the books, Obara the character is daughter of a prince and a whore. Obara the odu is hot-tempered, strong-willed and fast of speech. It's a person with problems with balance, a person that must reach for balance in order to have a happy life - otherwise the martial nature of Obara will take over. Obara the character is very martial. Obara odu is strongly associated with choosing your own destiny - for the character, tears os spears? This is from an African site about the Ifa divination system: "The good: The people of this Odu tend to be hard workers and very active and productive. They have strong ability to grow with what ever labor they choose as long as they feel is for the better to their family and themselves. They have a strong sense of duty to family. The bad: They are overly talkative and should learn to be more quite and listen. Their life is up and down. They tend not to save anything and at times the pass in hunger because of this. They should learn to hear the advices given and avoid lying because they will be found out. A pice of advice: You are living very uncomfortable and you do not sleep at night. You are a person of very few friends, you are not treated with legitimateness, others always think they are better than yourself, but they fight behind your back because they fear you. Careful of your bad temper, your tongue is harsh. You hate when people tell you the truth in your face, but you love to do it to everyone else. You have many envious enemies that surround you." Sounds like the eldest Sand Snake to anyone? Do you think it's coincidence? The advice part is almost like Doran himself is talking to our Obara! I believe if indeed this connection is real, if it were so intended by the author, then the Odu can give us some insight on the character development and aftermath. Obara is now heading to High Hermitage, what will she find there? How does it affect the plot? Could the odu's path and taboos tell us something? What do you think? Would it be interesting if I expanded the parallels? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lion of the West Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 I'd love for this to be true. But to be honest, his treatment of non-European cultures has so far convinced that while he is certainly progressive in terms of his view of race relations, gender and most everything, he isn't very interested in non-European cultures' history. I don't think that he is in any way uneducated or is a man of prejudices, but I think that when he wants to read a history book is probably European history. Not pre-Colombian Aztec, ancient Assyrian, medieval Swahili or Vedic Indian history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OtherFromAnotherMother Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 Wow! Nice find @Lady Dacey! This is great stuff. Your refreshing insight has brightened the forum lately. I'm so glad you started sharing with us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OtherFromAnotherMother Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 3 hours ago, Lady Dacey said: Would it be interesting if I expanded the parallels? Yes, please! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curled Finger Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 Lady, this is really nice. I do believe that in the last interview I heard with GRRM he did say he was a student of World History. He likens the Dothraki to the Huns. It's time the larger world was exposed to the smaller or less organized religions of South America, Africa and Australia. I don't suppose we could prove Obara is linked to the Obara of your OP, but it is now a suspicious connection. I wonder if you've dedicated any study to the names of all the Sand Snakes with a bent toward perhaps Oberyn being a babalawo of sorts. 12 odus and 8 daughters. Seems like there could be something here. Even if not related, this is just cool, @Lady Dacey. I would love to see some discussion of religions I'm not familiar with in relation to ASOIAF rather than mulling over the same things ad nauseum. Let's have the rest of it--don't hold back! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cridefea Posted January 12, 2018 Share Posted January 12, 2018 On 11/1/2018 at 6:23 PM, Lady Dacey said: It struck me the first time she came up in the books. Obara. Could it be merely a coincidence? How familiar could GRRM be with African religion and mithology? I'm surely imagining things, I thought at first. But I did keep thinking about it. And now I cannot read her name and not picture a babalawo with his opele looking at the Obara Odu telling an Ikin. Allow me to clarify some thoughts... the traditional Yoruba religion is practiced in Africa around current-day Nigeria. It's said to be as old and humankind. Brazil and Cuba have developed different organized religions that worship the Youruba deities as well. In the tradicional cult of Ifa the babalawo is a priest - the literal translation is "father of secrets". In this tradition, the babalawo uses the opele to communicate with Orunmila, the god/deity of destiny. There are sixteen odus, which are "destinies" or "life paths". Each odu has sixteen smaller odus in it. The sixth of the main odus is OBARA. Each man or woman has a personal odu. Knowing your odu can give insight to your personality, your shortcomings, your qualities, the challenges you're likely to encounter throughout your life, the restrictions you must follow to have the blessing of the gods, etc. I'm obviously over-simplifying a complex and beautiful culture for the purpose of getting where I want to get as I believe most of the people in this forum aren't familiar with Yoruba mythology. We know for a fact GRRM draws a lot of inspiration from world mythology. Specially European, but there might be something indigenous American on his work as well. I don't know if he has any knowledge of African mythology, but why not? The similarities are stunning! I'll try to summarize: A person with Obara's destiny is first and foremost a warrior. It's associated with the male deities Ossossi, Sango and Logunede and the female deity Oshun. Hunters and warriors and kings. Obara the odu is regal - even if humble born, there's kingship in that person somehow. In the books, Obara the character is daughter of a prince and a whore. Obara the odu is hot-tempered, strong-willed and fast of speech. It's a person with problems with balance, a person that must reach for balance in order to have a happy life - otherwise the martial nature of Obara will take over. Obara the character is very martial. Obara odu is strongly associated with choosing your own destiny - for the character, tears os spears? This is from an African site about the Ifa divination system: "The good: The people of this Odu tend to be hard workers and very active and productive. They have strong ability to grow with what ever labor they choose as long as they feel is for the better to their family and themselves. They have a strong sense of duty to family. The bad: They are overly talkative and should learn to be more quite and listen. Their life is up and down. They tend not to save anything and at times the pass in hunger because of this. They should learn to hear the advices given and avoid lying because they will be found out. A pice of advice: You are living very uncomfortable and you do not sleep at night. You are a person of very few friends, you are not treated with legitimateness, others always think they are better than yourself, but they fight behind your back because they fear you. Careful of your bad temper, your tongue is harsh. You hate when people tell you the truth in your face, but you love to do it to everyone else. You have many envious enemies that surround you." Sounds like the eldest Sand Snake to anyone? Do you think it's coincidence? The advice part is almost like Doran himself is talking to our Obara! I believe if indeed this connection is real, if it were so intended by the author, then the Odu can give us some insight on the character development and aftermath. Obara is now heading to High Hermitage, what will she find there? How does it affect the plot? Could the odu's path and taboos tell us something? What do you think? Would it be interesting if I expanded the parallels? This is great! I love this kind of thread, they enrich us! I don't know if it's a coincidence or not, but GRRM should read your post even if he didn't know Yoruba mythology! If he wasn't inspired by it, it proves sometimes myths have a universal base or common origins. Maybe @ravenous reader will enjoy it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ravenous reader Posted January 13, 2018 Share Posted January 13, 2018 19 hours ago, Cridefea said: This is great! I love this kind of thread, they enrich us! I don't know if it's a coincidence or not, but GRRM should read your post even if he didn't know Yoruba mythology! If he wasn't inspired by it, it proves sometimes myths have a universal base or common origins. Maybe @ravenous reader will enjoy it... Nice thread @Lady Dacey and thank you to @Cridefea for thinking of me. Regarding GRRM's interest in African culture, as many of the forum have picked up on, he has already referenced the 'Sansa' -- an African thumb piano (an instrument sounded by plucking strings under someone else's thumb, in contradistinction to the 'Aria', a solo operatic voice)! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Dacey Posted January 20, 2018 Author Share Posted January 20, 2018 On 11/01/2018 at 3:44 PM, LionoftheWest said: I'd love for this to be true. But to be honest, his treatment of non-European cultures has so far convinced that while he is certainly progressive in terms of his view of race relations, gender and most everything, he isn't very interested in non-European cultures' history. Oh, I actually agree with you, but let's try to be optimistic shall we? I'm bringing a few more parallels to this thread and let's see how it goes... we could have fun, even if none of it is true! The same can be said about most theories right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Dacey Posted January 20, 2018 Author Share Posted January 20, 2018 On 11/01/2018 at 6:56 PM, OtherFromAnotherMother said: Your refreshing insight has brightened the forum lately. I'm so glad you started sharing with us. You're too kind! I'm delighted to have found such fertile place to share thoughts and impressions on this amazing work of fantasy GRRM has gifted us. On 11/01/2018 at 6:57 PM, OtherFromAnotherMother said: Yes, please! They're coming! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Dacey Posted January 20, 2018 Author Share Posted January 20, 2018 On 11/01/2018 at 8:54 PM, Curled Finger said: I would love to see some discussion of religions I'm not familiar with in relation to ASOIAF rather than mulling over the same things ad nauseum. Let's have the rest of it--don't hold back! Curled Fingers, I always appreciate your input. Thanks for the all the encouragement. I'd love to do a topic exploring the animism present in the religion of Old Gods, which is closer to my personal practice than what I believe most readers on the forum have experienced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Dacey Posted January 20, 2018 Author Share Posted January 20, 2018 On 12/01/2018 at 7:33 PM, Cridefea said: This is great! I love this kind of thread, they enrich us! I don't know if it's a coincidence or not, but GRRM should read your post even if he didn't know Yoruba mythology! If he wasn't inspired by it, it proves sometimes myths have a universal base or common origins. Maybe @ravenous reader will enjoy it... I'm glad you enjoyed it! And thanks for tagging another forum user Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Dacey Posted January 20, 2018 Author Share Posted January 20, 2018 On 13/01/2018 at 3:14 PM, ravenous reader said: Regarding GRRM's interest in African culture, as many of the forum have picked up on, he has already referenced the 'Sansa' -- an African thumb piano (an instrument sounded by plucking strings under someone else's thumb, in contradistinction to the 'Aria', a solo operatic voice)! Thank you the link, I really liked the thread it directed me to. I live anything that explores the depths of character of the Stark sisters. The Sansa connection does point in the direction of GRRM being at least partially familiar with some African culture, which is very nice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Dacey Posted January 20, 2018 Author Share Posted January 20, 2018 It took me a while, but I'm back Obara is an interesting minor character. She's the first bastard daughter of a much beloved Prince - both 'in universe' by his countrymen and in the fandom. Oberyn seems to have taken a keen interest in raising his daughters. He has armed them, trained them and counseled them. They all seem to be extremely loyal to their father, and Obara is no exception. Dorne, the kingdom (or principality) these characters hail from, is unique in Westeros. They have a strong Rhoynar influence to culture and customs, making them different from the other six kingdoms in many aspects. They look different, they have a thick accent, they follow somewhat different laws. They are regarded as exotic and passionate. GRRM has stated that he has taken inspiration from the Iberic Peninsula when writing Dorne, making the Rhoynar akin to the Moors - North Africans who had very developed philosophy and technology unthinkable to medieval Europe by the 11th century. Portugal and Spain were markedly different from the rest of Western Europe during the Middle Ages because this strong influence. In the 14th century the technological and economical development of the peninsula meant that Portugal was the first modern state to ever exist, the first country to establish a nacional identity and a central government in Europe, allowing it to pioneer in slave trade and colonization. The Portuguese brought African workforce to it's first American colony, Brazil. But I'm getting sidetracked... This was all to say that if African influences are going to be somewhere in the Seven Kingdoms, it seems Dorne seeem a reasonable candidate. Obara is presented to us as hot headed and ungraceful. She is very similar to what I identify as a person whose personal odù is Obàrá. If there is a connection between Obàrá and Obara, there are some other aspects of the Odù I'd like to explore that weren't in the OP. Thing is, the most well known, base-level thing about the Obàrá odù in African-Brazilian tradition revolves around treason. Very GRRMish if you ask me... As I've said, an odu carries a series of taboos, or interjections: things a person mustn't do if she wants to succeed. For those with Obàrá's destiny keeping your mouth shut about your plans is paramount. If the person in question shares her plans before they happen, they fatally won't happen as planned because she'll be cheated by those she trusted. Being cheated and dealing with traitors is an integral part of the downside of Obara's destiny. Could this be foretelling something about Oberyn's daughter? I'm not convinced, but I would find beautiful if it were true. Are we going to see Obara Sand trust someone she shouldn't? Is she in for a trap? Is she going to face treason? Of course I have no answers, but I'm curious about what's to come. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curled Finger Posted January 20, 2018 Share Posted January 20, 2018 Oh very nice, Lady. Interesting take on Dorne's Obara in conjunction with treason. Remember when Doran summons his 3 elder nieces to give them assignments for his great plot? Nym and Tyene are sent to King's Landing for intrigue. Obara, warrior that she is, is sent with Balon Swann and Areo Hotah to apprehend the most dangerous man in Dorne. Here is the quote I'm trying to address here... "Darkstar," Tyene murmured, with a giggle. "Why not? It is all his doing. But will Ser Balon believe it?" ADWD The Watcher The deal here is that Darkstar is being set up by Doran and the Sandsnakes. Darkstar is the fall guy. Obara has been sent to get this patsy with a knight of the Kings Guard as well as Doran Martell's own personal guard. Sounds like a treachery to me. Would a truly loving uncle send his niece on such a dangerous journey? Who is Doran really trying to get rid of here? Sorry if not applicable, but it looks like a double cross to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Dacey Posted January 21, 2018 Author Share Posted January 21, 2018 3 hours ago, Curled Finger said: Oh very nice, Lady. Interesting take on Dorne's Obara in conjunction with treason. Remember when Doran summons his 3 elder nieces to give them assignments for his great plot? Nym and Tyene are sent to King's Landing for intrigue. Obara, warrior that she is, is sent with Balon Swann and Areo Hotah to apprehend the most dangerous man in Dorne. Here is the quote I'm trying to address here... "Darkstar," Tyene murmured, with a giggle. "Why not? It is all his doing. But will Ser Balon believe it?" ADWD The Watcher The deal here is that Darkstar is being set up by Doran and the Sandsnakes. Darkstar is the fall guy. Obara has been sent to get this patsy with a knight of the Kings Guard as well as Doran Martell's own personal guard. Sounds like a treachery to me. Would a truly loving uncle send his niece on such a dangerous journey? Who is Doran really trying to get rid of here? Sorry if not applicable, but it looks like a double cross to me. Absolutely applicable! It's precisely what I had in mind. I'm truly lost on Doran's intentions, but as far as immediate threats go, I'm concerned about Swann and Hotah - one is sworn to the Iron Throne and the other to the prince of Dorne, and neither would much care for Obara I guess. I wonder if we are getting to see what does down on the way to High Hermitage through Hotah's POV, or if we're only going to hear about the outcome later with someone else. Hotah killed Arys Oakhaert, but Balon Swann believes the Darkstar did it. Obara knows the truth of it - and lying is a bad omen for someone whose personal odù is obara. There is a saying for obara that goes "the lies you speak become the truth in time". Um... Could 'Darkstar killed a knight of the kingsguard' become an actual truth? How convenient for Doran would it be if the kingsguard and the Sand Snake perished on th mission together with their target? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curled Finger Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 26 minutes ago, Lady Dacey said: Absolutely applicable! It's precisely what I had in mind. I'm truly lost on Doran's intentions, but as far as immediate threats go, I'm concerned about Swann and Hotah - one is sworn to the Iron Throne and the other to the prince of Dorne, and neither would much care for Obara I guess. I wonder if we are getting to see what does down on the way to High Hermitage through Hotah's POV, or if we're only going to hear about the outcome later with someone else. Hotah killed Arys Oakhaert, but Balon Swann believes the Darkstar did it. Obara knows the truth of it - and lying is a bad omen for someone whose personal odù is obara. There is a saying for obara that goes "the lies you speak become the truth in time". Um... Could 'Darkstar killed a knight of the kingsguard' become an actual truth? How convenient for Doran would it be if the kingsguard and the Sand Snake perished on th mission together with their target? Wow, the more I learn the more the more I know! I realized after the fact that I mixed treason and treachery up. Thank you for understanding my meaning and not hitting me on the knuckles with a ruler. I'm pleased that we see similar paths here in that murky place that is Doran's plans. He wouldn't be the 1st not so great guy I thought was excellent in ASOIAF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OtherFromAnotherMother Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 3 hours ago, Lady Dacey said: Absolutely applicable! It's precisely what I had in mind. I'm truly lost on Doran's intentions, but as far as immediate threats go, I'm concerned about Swann and Hotah - one is sworn to the Iron Throne and the other to the prince of Dorne, and neither would much care for Obara I guess. I wonder if we are getting to see what does down on the way to High Hermitage through Hotah's POV, or if we're only going to hear about the outcome later with someone else. Hotah killed Arys Oakhaert, but Balon Swann believes the Darkstar did it. Obara knows the truth of it - and lying is a bad omen for someone whose personal odù is obara. There is a saying for obara that goes "the lies you speak become the truth in time". Um... Could 'Darkstar killed a knight of the kingsguard' become an actual truth? How convenient for Doran would it be if the kingsguard and the Sand Snake perished on th mission together with their target? Um... Yes! It is set up pretty well. It makes sense narratively. At this point, Balon is expendable. A lot of people, myself included, believe Darkstar could steal (maybe just be given) Dawn. How GRRM would it be if the first time we see Dawn is with the wielder killing a 'white shadow'? This would be a precursor to Dawn killing the other 'white shadow' methinks. I'm fairly convinced you are onto something with this Obara thing. I like the possibile areas it could take us. Your suggestion holds a lot of water, both narratively and symbolically. I like it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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