The lie of a love story

[Bael's Bastard]

46 minutes ago, LynnS said:

But he doesn't say that.  He says that he and Howland tore it down and built cairns out of it. GRRM says that only two walked away from the tower.  One assumes they had horses to help pull it down.  Ned tells us it is a round tower.  If is as easy to pull down as all that; then it fits the description of an Irish round tower.  We even have a description of such a tower in Arya's POV.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_round_tower#/media/File:WalArdm.jpg

It only says that Ned tore the tower down afterwards. It does not say whether Howland participated, or at what point afterward Ned did this, or how or with what he did this. It is a flimsy evidence to use to dismiss it as the place where Lyanna was found, which is implied in the books and explicitly stated in the app as the place where Ned found her dying.

[Hodor the Articulate]

9 hours ago, lAPPYc said:

You didn't think that I was saying the bit about the camp follower seriously, right? It's obvious that Rhaegar whispered Khal Drogo's name, who was winking at him throughout the battle from below the surface of the trident.

Okay, that was very bad. I was saying that we don't know that I think that the whispered name could be either of Lyanna or Elia. That said, I wouldn't really mind reading the subplot about the camp follower. Maybe she was Shae's mother.

Perhaps this camp follower was a spunky nurse from Volantis who wanders through battlefields without being robbed or raped or kidnapped. Move over L+R=J, the real hidden prince is baby T+R!

In all seriousness though, any name but Lyanna's holds no value, as far as I can see. You gave an in-story explanation for why 'Elia' might have been Rhaegar's final utterance, but failed to explain why it would be thematically significant.

[Curled Finger]

15 hours ago, LynnS said:

I don't think there is any point to it. So much fantasy has been larded onto the bones of RLJ that it's become too-fat-to-sit-a-horse.

TOJ may not look exactly like your watch tower, but it gives such a good perspective.

[Curled Finger]

11 hours ago, lAPPYc said:

@Curled Finger, you'll have to try very hard to sell to me that Elia was completely okay with being publicly humiliated at the greatest tourney of the time, and would have settled for being the 'discarded' wife, at least in the eyes of westeros, or that she *cringe* encouraged this tryst of her husband and Lyanna. When you say 'How about it?', I will say sure, it will lessen the pain level of the world. But if you ask me if this is probable, I would tell you that it sounds as fantastical as the tower @LynnS has problems with. But since Elia's consent/encouragement/reproaches don't really matter or explain anything that we are missing, I will refrain from writing my objections.

And about that tower, what's the problem there? I don't understand. We don't know that Ned and Howland pulled it down with a few horses. Ned would have called men from his main party from Storm's End to pull down the tower and build the graves for his companions.

A rotting flower or fruit has a sharper smell than normal. If they hadn't been replaced recently, or there were some old ones fallen below the bed that hadn't yet been cleaned away, the room will smell of them. He doesn't even say that it's a very thick smell.

Well, they were waiting outside the room while the Lord of Winterfell met with his dying sister. Why is this a question? Ned, as you yourself point out @LynnS, says that

so 'they' had to be the people who had already been at the Tower of Joy before Eddard Stark arrived, plus Howland Reed. If the tower had been empty, it would have only been Howland Reed and Ned would have said that 'he' found him with her.

Aerys got mad at the KotLT, but if you are drawing parallels between his being angry at KotLT and at Lyanna, you may remember that he didn't give a fig about the KotLT by the next day. There was about a year for him to forget about Lyanna.

Now I am not saying that he wouldn't remembered her when he heard that Lyanna was in the riverlands for her brother's wedding. But unlike in the case of KotLT, about whom, like, nobody cared, people would have warned Aerys not to retaliate against Lyanna. At the Tourney of Harrenhal, when Rhaegar crowned Lyanna, someone like Varys, or any other lickspittle on Aerys' side against his son, would have pointed out, like I said in the OP, that Rhaegar had just potentially made enemies of Winterfell and Storm's End. That's a great thing for Aerys.

But let's say that a year later, Aerys just had to have his revenge. But if Rhaegar learned of his plans, why didn't he take Lyanna back to her father?

But taking her to her father would have made Aerys suspicious as to why suddenly Rhaegar was at Riverrun/with Rickard Stark. So maybe he didn't have to go with her. He could have sent her with added guards, dressed as common guardsmen, but increasing the quantity of her guard so much that the group Aerys had sent on her would be deterred. And with Lyanna, Rhaegar could have sent a letter to her father saying that "Hey, like... I just saved your daughter's life. Keep her in constant watch, my father's got his eyes on her. Maybe if she had a husband he won't touch, she would finally be safe. Maybe a husband like... ME? My wife is completely fine with it, and... fuck the faith, you are of the North anyway. So what do you say?"

But maybe he was afraid that if he sent Lyanna back to her father, Rickard might say no, and Lyanna will slip from his fingers forever. So that's why he hid her himself. But that still doesn't tell us why he didn't contact Rickard afterwards. He could have even given him some proof of the King's intentions now, if Aerys was really trying to harm Lyanna.

About the pact of Ice and Fire, it was about a royal princess marrying into the Stark's, not about a bride from Winterfell. It was a pact made by a bastard anyway, so maybe that's why Jon Snow was a bastard and died breaking my heart, just like Jace. Poor things, we will never see the likes of them again...

Thank you for your thoughts.  

[Angel Eyes]

We never hear what Elia thought, only that she was kind-hearted (Oberyn), gracious (Barristan) had a quiet wit (Barristan), was slender and had small breasts (Cersei).  

[Jaehaerys Tyrell]

12 hours ago, Knight Of Winter said:

 

And let's even assume best case scenario: R and L marry, Dorne is for some reason ok with that and little Jon is raised alongside Aegon and Rhaenys. Hmm, I wonder where have we seen a situation like this before. Oh, I know, with Viserys I and so called "Dance of the Dragons", where the war half-brother and half-sister desolated the realm. But, Rheagar was noted as a fine scholar - so surely he would not have been so stupid to recreate the same circumstances? Surely?

 

I don’t agree. Rhaenyra and Aegon II were in a very different situation - Rhaenyra was her father’s proclaimed heir but tradition favoured Aegon II, and Rhaenyra and Aegon’s families hated each other. Rhaegar’s Aegon and Jon are closer in age, would be raised together as brothers, and Aegon would be both Rhaegar’s proclaimed heir and firstborn son. Now if he named Jon is heir, you’d get a civil war, but nowhere are we given the impression that he considered a child by Lyanna to come before Elia’s children. Aerys didn’t even consider Rhaegar the heir to the throne anyway. 

[Knight Of Winter]

6 hours ago, Jaehaerys Tyrell said:

I don’t agree. Rhaenyra and Aegon II were in a very different situation - Rhaenyra was her father’s proclaimed heir but tradition favoured Aegon II, and Rhaenyra and Aegon’s families hated each other. Rhaegar’s Aegon and Jon are closer in age, would be raised together as brothers, and Aegon would be both Rhaegar’s proclaimed heir and firstborn son. Now if he named Jon is heir, you’d get a civil war, but nowhere are we given the impression that he considered a child by Lyanna to come before Elia’s children. Aerys didn’t even consider Rhaegar the heir to the throne anyway. 

By "rules" - yes, Elia's Aegon comes before Lyanna's Jon. But the problem is, Lyanna may not care for the "rules" at all. She may become ambitious and push Rhaegar to name Jon as his heir. Her father, Lord of the North, may back her up. His allies, Lords of Stormlands, Vale and Riverlands may support him in this. Martells will naturally oppose this and start gathering their allies around them. And soon, you could have two powerful factions forming on the court. At best, they can learn to coexist - but in history, things often turn out not in the best way - and then you're stuck with civil war. And it doesn't matter if Lyanna and Elia hate each other or not - as long as they have mutually contradictory goals, they can easily become enemies.

It's mostly Rheagar's responsibility for even creating a scenario where two houses both yearn for their scion to be the next heir. Stuff such as this was avoided by generations for a reason. In fact, even if both women come from the same house, such as Rhaenys and Visenya, thier children (half-brothers) may start a war against each other.

[Ygrain]

On 15. 1. 2018 at 9:11 AM, lAPPYc said:

It was not right away, I stated what I wanted after the entire essay.

Do you think it really matters if you state your bias at the beginning or at the end of the OP? It's the approach you are taking.

On 15. 1. 2018 at 9:11 AM, lAPPYc said:

(And I acknowledged my bias when I spoke about yours).

Beg your pardon, you know nothing about me. I defend the love story position because I that where I perceive the story going, ever since I read AGOT and noticed the discrepancy between the two version as well as the hints that didn't fit with the rape versions. I had no vested interested in the existence or absence of a love story between R+L then and do not have one now, other than relying on gathering the hints that GRRM has been dropping, in-book as well as outside. As I pointed out above, the love versions is receiving a steady flow of further details, the rape version is not. Hence, I defend the love story and I enjoy dissecting and arguing for and against, this theory as well as others. 

On 15. 1. 2018 at 9:11 AM, lAPPYc said:

You, on the other hand, want Brandon to make an illogical mistake when there would be another, perfectly possible option, where he just wanted to kill his sister's rapist, an option which doesn't discredit your theory at all.

Not sure what illogical mistake you mean here - Brandon going to KL doesn't make sense whether he believed it was rape or a consensual love affair, because Rhaegar wasn't there in the first place. What I am pointing out is that we don't know Brandon's motivation, and that while his action, though rash, is compatible with the desire to avenge his sister's rape, it should be also taken into consideration that a consensual love affair might prompt exactly the same response, to avenge his sister's honour.

On 15. 1. 2018 at 9:11 AM, lAPPYc said:

She could have gone riding, hawking, to meet with her lover, any number of things.

Certainly. But why so close to HH? That's not on the way from Winterfell to Riverrun. Had she been staying at HH for some time? That would make some communication between her and Rhaegar way easier than frlom Winterfell, not to mention that there is a very convenient location near HH where no-one goes and with weirwoods for interesting scenes to be seen by Bran.

On 15. 1. 2018 at 9:11 AM, lAPPYc said:

But according to you, Rickard wanted Rhaegar to not make it public knowledge. That needs communication.

Indeed. But that doesn't mean Rickard necessarily knew where Rhaegar would be hiding. For instance, with Aerys' paranoia, he might start suspecting the Starks of somehow scheming with Rhaegar. Rickard can then truthfully claim he doesn't know a thing about Rhaegar's whereabouts. And since this would be agreed on beforehands, by communication from DS, HH or some other place where Rhaegar had support, Rickard wouldn't have any information about ToJ.

On 15. 1. 2018 at 9:11 AM, lAPPYc said:

That is not true. Runners, couriers, messengers, all these are trained to travel fast between places. In the time of peace and when people were holding weddings, they wouldn't be in much danger either. They could always mask the messages as wedding invitations.

The distance are huge. Although GRRM doesn't bother himself with counting days and miles, he doesn't have people teleporting like the show does. No courier sent after Brandon was imprisoned would have made it in time.

 

On 15. 1. 2018 at 9:11 AM, lAPPYc said:

They could have tried. All this:-

are things that you could ask in hindsight, but at the time when this was actually happening, all these were the questions that they could have at least asked each other. When he was being cooked in his armor, knowing that there was a fued between Rhaegar and Aerys, would Rickard not try to take advantage of it? What was the worst that would happen if Aerys refused the deal? Rickard would die? He was doing that already. There was nothing to lose by asking.

And nothing to gain if he didn't posses the information, which he was not bound to.

On 15. 1. 2018 at 9:11 AM, lAPPYc said:

Just like there was nothing to lose for Rhaegar by contacting Jon Arryn/Ned Stark and showing him the correspondence between him and Rickard and give his word of support in a war against his father? What was the worst that could have happened? Winterfell and the Eyrie would have refused his offer and raised against the Targaryens? That was already happening.

Well... and do we know that no communication attempts were made by Rhaegar?

On 15. 1. 2018 at 9:11 AM, lAPPYc said:

There was the whole of the rebellion to make an alliance against Aerys, the guy who actually killed Rickard Stark.

Ned will tell his bannermen that their main target was Aerys, you know, the guy that killed the Lord of Winterfell? I am not saying that he would have told them this, I am saying that Rhaegar had nothing holding him back from writing to Ned, not if him and Lyanna were in love.

And do we know that he or Lyanna didn't? Because mind you: no-one was fighting a war over Lyanna! 

- If you want a historical parallel, take a look at the abduction of Isabella of Angouleme by John Lackland. It was not the abduction itself, but when her family and her betrothed raised a complaint with the King of France, he claimed that John owed him fealty and ordered John to returned her. John refused, and then war ensued, to establish who had an upper hand. It was never about Isabella herself, who remained with John ever though he lost the war.

 

On 15. 1. 2018 at 9:11 AM, lAPPYc said:

So Rhaegar's plan of lessening her pain worked. She found some solace in the flowers!

That would require us to believe that the wild and wilful Lyanna would accept flowers from the guy who raped her, instead of throwing them into her chamber pot. - Unless she still loved him even though he raped her, which still leaves us with a love story.

On 15. 1. 2018 at 9:11 AM, lAPPYc said:

Okay, now I hope your are being sarcastic. Because if you still don't know what I mean, there is something very wrong with my writing(come to thing of it, that would actually explain why nobody likes my fanfic). What I mean is that he wasn't the rapist type, but when Lyanna refused to marry him/carry his child, he

and so abducted her and rape her till she became pregnant. This is what I have been saying from the start.

It really wasn't clear, because you seem to be operating with a rather abridged version of what it means to be a rapist. People rape for various reasons and when you say that someone isn't a rapist type, you are rejecting all of them in their entirety.

Besides, why would Rhaegar need to rape her? He possessed all the means to make her fall in love with him and manipulate her to want to have his child. There is no need to make their love go sour by having Lyanna raped, because the love did go sour, anyway, by all the tragedy that followed.

On 15. 1. 2018 at 9:11 AM, lAPPYc said:

All that hints at is that Ser Barristan thought that Rhaegar loved Lyanna. What would you think, after seeing that spectacle at the Tourney of Harrenhal(I already know what you think). In this series where every character is an unreliable narrator, I wouldn't put much faith in their feelings.

And outside the series?

The app: Rhaegar was killed after giving Robert a serious wound. He would die with Lyanna's name on his lips.

Plus, the GRRM quote in my signature, which I keep there for reference sake, not fangirlism.

On 15. 1. 2018 at 9:11 AM, lAPPYc said:

Varys was sad when he killed Ser Kevan(as much sadness as he could practice at least). "There are many like you, good men in service of bad causes". To Ned, they were just knights that were following their orders. Knowing Ned's honor, of course he will think of them as honorable.

But Ned himself refused to follow Robert's dishonourable order to have Dany assassinated. He doesn't believe in blind obedience of atrocities.

On 15. 1. 2018 at 9:11 AM, lAPPYc said:

I have already conceded that Ned could have believed Lyanna's story of the love story.

And as I said above, I believe it, too, because in five books, I don't see a single element to the contrary.

On 15. 1. 2018 at 9:11 AM, lAPPYc said:

We are never told that it was Lyanna's name he was whispering. What the vision is:

See above, the app quote. 

[LynnS]

@lAPPYc  The app says so and the the wiki says so and we all know anyone can change the wiki.  The only one who hasn't said so is Martin. If someone had inside information, I doubt they would say a thing about it, never mind take bets.  This isn't canon, it's just someone's head canon.  Otherwise the Stark family tree would be changed by now.

[Bael's Bastard]

The app and wiki are two different things. The app was made from information from the books and information from GRRM. Not that this will stop crackpots from continuing to delude themselves in order to cling to their baseless theories.

[Ygrain]

Exactly. GRRM participated in the creation of the app. 

Besides, the app was released after "Rhaegar loved his lady Lyanna", so it's not like GRRM gave away something that people hadn't figured out by then. 

[PrettyPig]

On 1/16/2018 at 8:59 AM, LynnS said:

But he doesn't say that.  He says that he and Howland tore it down and built cairns out of it. GRRM says that only two walked away from the tower.  One assumes they had horses to help pull it down.  Ned tells us it is a round tower.  If is as easy to pull down as all that; then it fits the description of an Irish round tower.  We even have a description of such a tower in Arya's POV.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_round_tower#/media/File:WalArdm.jpg

Is there a discussion about this tower happening somewhere (preferably absent the usual “Royal Maternity Ward” BS)? This has potential to be really eye-opening given the real historical significance of the location of one of these towers.    Nice find, LynnS.

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, PrettyPig said:

Is there a discussion about this tower happening somewhere (preferably absent the usual “Royal Maternity Ward” BS)? This has potential to be really eye-opening given the real historical significance of the location of one of these towers.    Nice find, LynnS.

No, there is no discussion about it.  Given that two men (and some horses) could tear it down; it had to be old and unstable to start, probably no more than a ruin.

[lAPPYc]

On 1/17/2018 at 9:47 PM, Ygrain said:

On 1/15/2018 at 1:41 PM, lAPPYc said:

It was not right away, I stated what I wanted after the entire essay.

Do you think it really matters if you state your bias at the beginning or at the end of the OP? It's the approach you are taking.

Quote

(And I acknowledged my bias when I spoke about yours).

Beg your pardon, you know nothing about me. I defend the love story position because I that where I perceive the story going, ever since I read AGOT and noticed the discrepancy between the two version as well as the hints that didn't fit with the rape versions. I had no vested interested in the existence or absence of a love story between R+L then and do not have one now, other than relying on gathering the hints that GRRM has been dropping, in-book as well as outside. As I pointed out above, the love versions is receiving a steady flow of further details, the rape version is not. Hence, I defend the love story and I enjoy dissecting and arguing for and against, this theory as well as others. 

Quote

You, on the other hand, want Brandon to make an illogical mistake when there would be another, perfectly possible option, where he just wanted to kill his sister's rapist, an option which doesn't discredit your theory at all.

Not sure what illogical mistake you mean here - Brandon going to KL doesn't make sense whether he believed it was rape or a consensual love affair, because Rhaegar wasn't there in the first place. What I am pointing out is that we don't know Brandon's motivation, and that while his action, though rash, is compatible with the desire to avenge his sister's rape, it should be also taken into consideration that a consensual love affair might prompt exactly the same response, to avenge his sister's honour.

Okay, how about we just let this go. 'Cause none of us is apparently going to back down.

On 1/17/2018 at 9:47 PM, Ygrain said:

Quote

They could have tried. All this:-

are things that you could ask in hindsight, but at the time when this was actually happening, all these were the questions that they could have at least asked each other. When he was being cooked in his armor, knowing that there was a fued between Rhaegar and Aerys, would Rickard not try to take advantage of it? What was the worst that would happen if Aerys refused the deal? Rickard would die? He was doing that already. There was nothing to lose by asking.

And nothing to gain if he didn't posses the information, which he was not bound to.

Everybody knew Aerys didn't like his son, and maybe even that he didn't want him as his heir. If even Rickard would tell him that Rhaegar was cooking something behind Aerys's back there was a possibility that he might be pardoned. To people being tortured even a small possibility looks bigger than the milkey way. Theon begged for his finger be cut off so that the pain will stop. According to Hizdahr,

Quote

“I do not doubt that Skahaz would soon have me confessing. A day with him, and I will be one of the Harpy’s Sons. Two days, and I will be the Harpy. Three, and it will turn out I slew your father too, back in the Sunset Kingdoms when I was yet a boy.

 

If Rickard was being cooked in his armor, and he knew Rhaegar wanted to unseat Aerys, he would have screamed all he knew to the courtroom. But he didn't, because he wasn't in league with Rhaegar.

Quote

And do we know that he or Lyanna didn't? Because mind you: no-one was fighting a war over Lyanna! 

Ned was. He was fighting against the Targaryens and Rhaegar could have asked him to make it just against Aerys. because, you know, Aerys killed Rickard and Brandon while Rhaegar was away on a trip blessed by Rickard himself. We have Ned as a pov. He never thinks of any communication with Rhaegar. Because he knew that Lyanna would never back him up.

Quote

That would require us to believe that the wild and wilful Lyanna would accept flowers from the guy who raped her, instead of throwing them into her chamber pot.

 

People break. She might have thrown them in the chamber pot, but then, in the night when she is resting on the bed alone, I'll guarantee you that she will wish for those flowers that remind her of home. Wild and willful doesn't mean they are like that 24/7, otherwise, she wouldn't have sniffled at the song Rhaegar sung at Harrenhal.

On 1/17/2018 at 9:47 PM, Ygrain said:

Besides, why would Rhaegar need to rape her? He possessed all the means to make her fall in love with him and manipulate her to want to have his child.

 

And he tried. He tried for a year. In the OP, I even say that I have no qualms with believing that Lyanna loved him/had an affair with him. But when he popped the question, she remembered her honor and said that she wouldn't leave her fiancee. Not wanting her to escape his reach, he abducted her

On 1/17/2018 at 9:47 PM, Ygrain said:

And outside the series?

The app: Rhaegar was killed after giving Robert a serious wound. He would die with Lyanna's name on his lips.

Plus, the GRRM quote in my signature, which I keep there for reference sake, not fangirlism.

.Okay, I don't have the app, so I didn't know this. TWoIaF is written by the Maester Yandel, and we know that he is unreliable. I don't know who wrote this app, but the GRRM quote(I was on the cellphone the first time you made the reference to your signature, so I couldn't read it) sets it straight. That's sad, but I guess he fell in love with her. That still doesn't make the trip to ToJ consensual.

On 1/17/2018 at 9:47 PM, Ygrain said:

But Ned himself refused to follow Robert's dishonourable order to have Dany assassinated. He doesn't believe in blind obedience of atrocities.

He accords all respect to Ser Barristan, the man that watched his father being cooked before the Iron Throne. He even at least lets Bran believe that Ser Barristan is the greatest knight alive. Robb however thinks that Jaime Lannister shouldn't be counted in the Kingsguard because he killed the mad king. This also I am guessing comes to him from Ned. At least where Arthur Dayne and co. were concerned, the rape was going on behind a door. Here Ser Barristan watched the entire thing, and all other things Aerys did over the years, with his own eyes, and then he even went to the battlefield following this madman's standard. It is the person that gives the order that matters to Ned, not the guards that are following their orders.

[Ygrain]

2 hours ago, lAPPYc said:

Okay, how about we just let this go. 'Cause none of us is apparently going to back down.

Very apparently - though, you are making some good points and concede some, as well, which is not exactly common.

2 hours ago, lAPPYc said:

Everybody knew Aerys didn't like his son, and maybe even that he didn't want him as his heir. If even Rickard would tell him that Rhaegar was cooking something behind Aerys's back there was a possibility that he might be pardoned. To people being tortured even a small possibility looks bigger than the milkey way. Theon begged for his finger be cut off so that the pain will stop. According to Hizdahr,

If Rickard was being cooked in his armor, and he knew Rhaegar wanted to unseat Aerys, he would have screamed all he knew to the courtroom. But he didn't, because he wasn't in league with Rhaegar.

That's the problem with "ifs" - did Rhaegar mention this "little detail"?

The other problem is, we don't have a very detailed account. Was Rickard reduced to begging for his - or Brandon's - life at some point, even if he didn't know a thing to trade in exchange? It would be very believable, very human, yet we don't hear about anything like that, either. Is this because Rickard was extremely proud/strong-willed, or did Jaime just skip this?

 

2 hours ago, lAPPYc said:

Ned was. He was fighting against the Targaryens and Rhaegar could have asked him to make it just against Aerys. because, you know, Aerys killed Rickard and Brandon while Rhaegar was away on a trip blessed by Rickard himself. We have Ned as a pov. He never thinks of any communication with Rhaegar. Because he knew that Lyanna would never back him up.

Well, but this doesn't change the outcome - the war is still going on, the only difference is on whose side Rhaegar turns up. Hence, Lyanna's or Rhaegar's explanation doesn't stop the fighting.

As for Ned, he doesn't think about great many things which we do know that happened, e.g. his trip to Starfall and Ashara's suicide, so I'm afraid that cannot be taken as proof one way or another.

The rest is going in cycles, so I won't go more into this. Suffice to say that Rhaegar joining the rebels doesn't seem very plausible to me.

2 hours ago, lAPPYc said:

People break. She might have thrown them in the chamber pot, but then, in the night when she is resting on the bed alone, I'll guarantee you that she will wish for those flowers that remind her of home. Wild and willful doesn't mean they are like that 24/7, otherwise, she wouldn't have sniffled at the song Rhaegar sung at Harrenhal.

Certainly, such an explanation can be made. Personally, I find it convoluted and in the absence of points to the contrary, I find the easier solution more convincing.

 

2 hours ago, lAPPYc said:

And he tried. He tried for a year. In the OP, I even say that I have no qualms with believing that Lyanna loved him/had an affair with him. But when he popped the question, she remembered her honor and said that she wouldn't leave her fiancee. Not wanting her to escape his reach, he abducted her

A couple of problems here:

1) If they already had a full-blown affair going, or were planning one, why risk alienating Lyanna by telling her about the need for a child?

2) when Dany daydreams about Daario sweeping in to abduct her prior the wedding to Hizdahr, she compares this to Rhaegar carrying of his northern girl. - Now, this is in no way conclusive, but it does offer the possibility that Rhaegar "rescued" Lyanna from the marriage we know she had doubts about. (It has even been theorized that the impulse may have come from Lyanna herself, as a parallel to Alys Karstark's escape to none other that Rhaegar's own son)

3) one point I failed to mention earlier: tower of joy. Even if they had spent there some happy time together before Rhaegar raped Lyanna, it would still be very calluous to call the place that after he forced himself on her.

 

2 hours ago, lAPPYc said:

.Okay, I don't have the app, so I didn't know this. TWoIaF is written by the Maester Yandel, and we know that he is unreliable. I don't know who wrote this app, but the GRRM quote(I was on the cellphone the first time you made the reference to your signature, so I couldn't read it) sets it straight. That's sad, but I guess he fell in love with her. That still doesn't make the trip to ToJ consensual.

The app was written by Ran and Linda, who run this site, in consultation with GRRM and with his approval of some passages. It compiles the information from the books plus adds details revealed by GRRM (for example, that Lyanna practiced riding at rings).

2 hours ago, lAPPYc said:

He accords all respect to Ser Barristan, the man that watched his father being cooked before the Iron Throne. He even at least lets Bran believe that Ser Barristan is the greatest knight alive. Robb however thinks that Jaime Lannister shouldn't be counted in the Kingsguard because he killed the mad king. This also I am guessing comes to him from Ned. At least where Arthur Dayne and co. were concerned, the rape was going on behind a door. Here Ser Barristan watched the entire thing, and all other things Aerys did over the years, with his own eyes, and then he even went to the battlefield following this madman's standard. It is the person that gives the order that matters to Ned, not the guards that are following their orders.

I don't recall, was Barristan personally present? Hightower was, because he gave Jaime the speech about obey-not-judge, but I don't recall Barristan directly mentioned.

 

Feel free to discontinue the discussion any time.

[Geddus]

On 17/1/2018 at 5:17 PM, Ygrain said:

Certainly. But why so close to HH? That's not on the way from Winterfell to Riverrun. Had she been staying at HH for some time? That would make some communication between her and Rhaegar way easier than frlom Winterfell, not to mention that there is a very convenient location near HH where no-one goes and with weirwoods for interesting scenes to be seen by Bran.

But Ned himself refused to follow Robert's dishonourable order to have Dany assassinated. He doesn't believe in blind obedience of atrocities.

I think Lyanna being able to communicate with Rhaegar is very difficult to believe, and her being in Harrenhal (or anywhere other than Winterfell) wouldn't make it easier. Quite the opposite, actually.

Ned does believe in obedience whent it's required, otherwise he would hold Barristan in contempt. And he refused because he could; Kingsguard can't resign.

[Ygrain]

1 hour ago, Geddus said:

I think Lyanna being able to communicate with Rhaegar is very difficult to believe, and her being in Harrenhal (or anywhere other than Winterfell) wouldn't make it easier. Quite the opposite, actually.

Don't forget that HH was the seat of the Whent family and Oswell Whent was among Rhaegar's closest friends. Also, there was the young Whent daughter, who we know nothing about. If she was a romantic soul, she might have been more than willing to help out.

1 hour ago, Geddus said:

Ned does believe in obedience whent it's required, otherwise he would hold Barristan in contempt. And he refused because he could; Kingsguard can't resign.

I didn't mean to suggest that the KG should have resigned but that Ned doesn't believe in blind obedience. And note that Barristan voted against the king in the matter of Dany's assassination.

And I don't believe for a second that Ned would name Arthur the finest knight ever if he had a shadow of doubt that the man just stood by while Lyanna was being raped. He might have given Arthur a pass for being forced into obeying by his vows, but wouldn't name him as a shining example when there are a bunch of historical examples without such a stain.

[Geddus]

Yes but how? Ravens are out of the question for obvious reasons; a messenger going back and forth between Dragonstone and Harrenhal (or wherever Lyanna was) doesn't sound much better. I just can't find a way that doesn't sound ridiculous.

Ned says all (but one, I guess) of Aerys' Kingsguard were shining examples, not just Arthur Dayne: that includes people who just stood by while Rickard and Brandon Stark were being slaughtered. Kingsguards are all about blind obedience, I assume Ned knows that.

Just to clarify, I think Lyanna went willingly, at least at first.

[Ygrain]

16 hours ago, Geddus said:

Yes but how? Ravens are out of the question for obvious reasons;

I wouldn't rule them out completely - unlike at Winterfell, where no-one would probably dare act under Rickard's nose, the HH maester might have been talked into cooperation. I guess it would largely depend on Lord Whent's attitude - he was the one holding the tourney, which seems to have been prompted by Oswell Whent's visit. Perhaps he was also willing to do Rhaegar another favour?

16 hours ago, Geddus said:

a messenger going back and forth between Dragonstone and Harrenhal (or wherever Lyanna was) doesn't sound much better. I just can't find a way that doesn't sound ridiculous.

Perhaps the messenger wouldn't have to go to Harrenhal itself. I can imagine that with her love of horse riding, Lyanna would have a pretext to go to a location nearby which could serve as a dead drop. Also, Oswell visiting his family could act as a messenger (if any messaging did take place).

16 hours ago, Geddus said:

Ned says all (but one, I guess) of Aerys' Kingsguard were shining examples, not just Arthur Dayne: that includes people who just stood by while Rickard and Brandon Stark were being slaughtered. Kingsguards are all about blind obedience, I assume Ned knows that.

But he names Arthur as the finest, and I don't think he means fighting skills...

True enough, I have no idea how Ned put up with the KG standing by while his brother and father were being murdered, or how he would feel about the KG beating Sansa; on the other hand, he doesn't seem surprised when Barristan voices his disapproval with Robert's decision to have Dany murdered. Hm. Perhaps the difference would be in the approval/disapproval? I suppose he would understand that the KG obeyed their orders as they were bound to by their vows, but he would be greatly disappointed if they weren't troubled by orders that went against the codes of honor. 

[Geddus]

10 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

I wouldn't rule them out completely - unlike at Winterfell, where no-one would probably dare act under Rickard's nose, the HH maester might have been talked into cooperation. I guess it would largely depend on Lord Whent's attitude - he was the one holding the tourney, which seems to have been prompted by Oswell Whent's visit. Perhaps he was also willing to do Rhaegar another favour?

Perhaps the messenger wouldn't have to go to Harrenhal itself. I can imagine that with her love of horse riding, Lyanna would have a pretext to go to a location nearby which could serve as a dead drop. Also, Oswell visiting his family could act as a messenger (if any messaging did take place).

Castles have only a certain amount of ravens for any given destination, they're used for important communications. I don't think lord Whent would lend them to Lyanna so she could send love letters. And that is if Harrenhal even has ravens for Dragonstone, which is not certain.

The messenger thing seems slightly more feasible, but still, leaving compromising messages to a dead drop isn't very smart. I also don't think Lyanna would have had the freedom to go around as she pleased, she would have had an escort for sure. I'm still convinced there must be much more to the "abduction" than we think, any theories I've read about it seem unlikely for one reason or another.

I agree about the approval. Kingsguard can disagree with the king, but they can't disobey him: had Robert ordered Barristan to go hire an assassin for Daenerys, I think the old knigt would have done it. If there's something Ned understands it's duty, I have no doubt he was fully prepared to kill Theon in case Balon rebelled again.