lAPPYc

The People Vs. Sansa Stark. Exhibit A: Lyanna Stark

32 posts in this topic

People hate Sansa Stark, it is no secret.

They hate the way she thinks, about Jon, or just about people in general.

They hate how naive(dumb, they call it) she is.

They say that she has proven time and again that she is not a Stark and condemn her as a Tully(Yes, that's apparently a condemnation, and it means 'stupid like Catelyn')

They say her priorities are selfish, and she is the worst character in the series.

They say that she went against her father's teaching and lied to Robert, and that made as non-Stark as possible, and the gods proved it when they took away Lady.

They hate because she went to Cersei and spilled her father's plans.

But...

These same people celebrate Lyanna running off with Rhaegar - her one true love like Joffrey was for Sansa at a time - and going against her father's wishes to marry him.

Am I missing something here? How does this work? Is this because Lyanna's mother's maiden name was Stark? Or have I found the best way to differentiate between haters and critics?

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48 minutes ago, Lady Dacey said:

Who are 'they'? 

They are the obscure faces hiding behind anonymity.

Give a man a mask and he will become rude.

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I can only speak for myself but my biggest problem with her is that she is snobby. Judging by tKotLT Lyanna wasnt.

Edited by Sigella

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Lol @lAPPYc you really had me going there with the twist at the end.  I'm totally pro-Sansa and think that Lyanna definitely deserves a lot of blame for the bloodshed and suffering brought on by the events leading up to and including Robert's Rebellion if the romanticized "she and Rhaegar were in love and ran away together plus Elia was cool with it" version of the story is true.  Never thought to compare the two characters though.  Plus Lyanna was older.  Definitely giving Sansa the win... provided the Rhaegar isn't a kidnapper/rapist theory is true.

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@LynnS you may be interested in this freedom to express the personal opinion in a forum.

I would ask the same question @Lady Dacey asked. Who is they?

3 hours ago, lAPPYc said:

People hate Sansa Stark, it is no secret.

The twitterverse and facebookverse and the other social media outlets need to reign in that “hate” shite.

3 hours ago, lAPPYc said:

They hate the way she thinks, about Jon, or just about people in general.

Sansa is a fictional character in a fictional book. She is a child with childish ideas.

3 hours ago, lAPPYc said:

They hate how naive(dumb, they call it) she is.

She is a child so yes, Sansa is naïve and was until Eddard took her to KL she was much protected and believed her fairy tales.

3 hours ago, lAPPYc said:

They say that she has proven time and again that she is not a Stark and condemn her as a Tully(Yes, that's apparently a condemnation, and it means 'stupid like Catelyn')

They say her priorities are selfish, and she is the worst character in the series.

She is a child so yes, Sansa is naïve and was until Eddard took her to KL she was much protected and believed her fairy tales.

3 hours ago, lAPPYc said:

They say that she went against her father's teaching and lied to Robert, and that made as non-Stark as possible, and the gods proved it when they took away Lady.

They hate because she went to Cersei and spilled her father's plans.

Both Cat and her darling Sansa are selfish and a bit self centered. I do not agree that either of them are the worst characters in the series. The book character Ms. Stark and her daughter merely portray the dark side of the female essence.

3 hours ago, lAPPYc said:

They hate because she went to Cersei and spilled her father's plans.

Yes little Sansa  a 11/12 year old girl afeard of being separated from her prince spilled the beans.

3 hours ago, lAPPYc said:

But...

These same people celebrate Lyanna running off with Rhaegar - her one true love like Joffrey was for Sansa at a time - and going against her father's wishes to marry him.

Am I missing something here? How does this work? Is this because Lyanna's mother's maiden name was Stark? Or have I found the best way to differentiate between haters and critics?

As to the But...  a wrench does not fit every nut.  Whatcha think @LynnS is the OP being sincere? Was I amiable enough?
 

3 hours ago, lAPPYc said:

People hate Sansa Stark, it is no secret.

They hate the way she thinks, about Jon, or just about people in general.

They hate how naive(dumb, they call it) she is.

They say that she has proven time and again that she is not a Stark and condemn her as a Tully(Yes, that's apparently a condemnation, and it means 'stupid like Catelyn')

They say her priorities are selfish, and she is the worst character in the series.

They say that she went against her father's teaching and lied to Robert, and that made as non-Stark as possible, and the gods proved it when they took away Lady.

They hate because she went to Cersei and spilled her father's plans.

But...

These same people celebrate Lyanna running off with Rhaegar - her one true love like Joffrey was for Sansa at a time - and going against her father's wishes to marry him.

Am I missing something here? How does this work? Is this because Lyanna's mother's maiden name was Stark? Or have I found the best way to differentiate between haters and critics?

The discussion in a different thread goes like this

 

Poster !: Nobody has any obligation to humor interpretations or arguments that have absolutely no basis in the text. You are within your right to post such things, however baseless, and others are well within their right to point out how baseless they are.

Poster 2: Yes, all kinds of baseless things have been posted including assumptions about RLJ. However, there is an obligation for civil discourse. The ability to treat other members with respect is the issue, not whether or not you think something is baseless.

  •  

 

 

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37 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

As to the But...  a wrench does not fit every nut.  Whatcha think @LynnS is the OP being sincere? Was I amiable enough?

You're mistaking me for someone who cares what you think.

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1 minute ago, LynnS said:

You're mistaking me for someone who cares what you think.

ouch

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5 hours ago, lAPPYc said:

People hate Sansa Stark, it is no secret.

They hate the way she thinks, about Jon, or just about people in general.

They hate how naive(dumb, they call it) she is.

They say that she has proven time and again that she is not a Stark and condemn her as a Tully(Yes, that's apparently a condemnation, and it means 'stupid like Catelyn')

They say her priorities are selfish, and she is the worst character in the series.

They say that she went against her father's teaching and lied to Robert, and that made as non-Stark as possible, and the gods proved it when they took away Lady.

They hate because she went to Cersei and spilled her father's plans.

But...

These same people celebrate Lyanna running off with Rhaegar - her one true love like Joffrey was for Sansa at a time - and going against her father's wishes to marry him.

Am I missing something here? How does this work? Is this because Lyanna's mother's maiden name was Stark? Or have I found the best way to differentiate between haters and critics?

I hate both Sansa and Lyanna.  Both girls are acting selfishly.  Robb, Jon, Sansa, and Lyanna are selfish people.

Edited by 300 H&H Magnum

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I think the OP is really talking about Stark supporters.  The ones who like Arya and Lyanna but dislike Sansa.  Like I wrote above, I don't like Lyanna and I most certainly don't like Sansa.  Rickon and the Eddard are the only Starks that I don't dislike. 

It is hard to stereotype an entire family.  All of the Starks are not cut from the same mold.  The one thing Lyanna, Jon, Robb, and Sansa have in common is they are selfish.  They place what they want ahead of the common good.  Eddard seems different.  He looks at the big picture and he can see beyond his own wants.  Too bad his children didn't inherit his sense of duty.

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I don't hate her. That said in GoT, when she was still but a child, she did do some stuff that made me dislike her in that first book.

The main thing for me was when Joffrey tried to kill her sister Arya with a sword at the Trident, after which Sansa still claimed to love Joff. It's one thing to bicker with Arya and be annoyed with her, it's another to claim to love the kid that almost killed her sister with a sword while Arya was only armed with a stick. 

In the later books I actually came to like Sansa and enjoy her arc. However if she does anything to harm Strong Robin I will in fact hate her. Lord Robert Arryn has only the best intentions for his love Alayne, if she betrays him...:tantrum:

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17 minutes ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

The main thing for me was when Joffrey tried to kill her sister Arya with a sword at the Trident, after which Sansa still claimed to love Joff. It's one thing to bicker with Arya and be annoyed with her, it's another to claim to love the kid that almost killed her sister with a sword while Arya was only armed with a stick.

Wasn't Sansa wine drunk when this was going down?  Also it was Arya who hit Joff in the back of the head with the stick unexpectedly first, then she tried hitting him again and he defended himself knocking the stick away, then she threw rocks at him and his horse and only then did Joffrey slash at her so as to quickly back her up when Nymeria came to save the day.  I say a reasonable case could be made that while Joff was wrong/evil/pyschopathic to put his sword on Mycah that he was acting in self defense and didn't get the opportunity to actually threaten Arya in a serious way that would give Sansa any more pause then she already has.  Plus is not like this incident undid her betrothal, and she was wary of Joff thereafter except for during the feast at the Hand's tourney.

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2 hours ago, Lucius Lovejoy said:

Wasn't Sansa wine drunk when this was going down?

I don't remember her thinking she was drunk in her POV and the incident was through her POV chapter. She seemed to be very aware of what was happening when it was going down. I believe she said the wine made her "a little dizzy."

2 hours ago, Lucius Lovejoy said:

Also it was Arya who hit Joff in the back of the head with the stick unexpectedly first

Yes. But that was only because Joff was cutting Mycah's face and drawing blood. He also showed no sign of stopping. When Arya tried to get Joff to stop by saying he was hurting Mycah Joff told Arya he "wouldn't hurt him...much." All while keeping his sword on Mycah.

The only thing that did stop him was Arya picking up her stick and whacking him.

2 hours ago, Lucius Lovejoy said:

then she tried hitting him again and he defended himself knocking the stick away, then she threw rocks at him and his horse

True. After Joff whirled around and starting roaring curses, Arya made the first move in the duel with her stick that Joff valiantly defended with his steel sword disarming Arya. After Arya's stick was gone she threw one rock that missed. After that the 9 year old small and thin Arya was defenseless, even Sansa is screaming for Joff to stop as he pursued her.

2 hours ago, Lucius Lovejoy said:

and only then did Joffrey slash at her so as to quickly back her up when Nymeria came to save the day.

 Not quite.

She hit his horse instead, and the blood bay reared and went galloping off after Mycah. "Stop it, don't, stop it!" Sansa screamed. Joffrey slashed at Arya with his sword, screaming obscenities, terrible words, filthy words. Arya darted back, frightened now, but Joff followed, hounding her toward the woods, backing her up against a tree. Sansa didn't know what to do. She watched helplessly, almost blind from tears. - Sansa

Then Nymeria came to save Arya. After Joff had her disarmed, frightened and backed up against a tree. All while Sansa was crying because she was scared of what Joff would do to Arya. Maybe because those "terrible words" were threatening.  

2 hours ago, Lucius Lovejoy said:

  I say a reasonable case could be made that while Joff was wrong/evil/pyschopathic to put his sword on Mycah that he was acting in self defense and didn't get the opportunity to actually threaten Arya in a serious way that would give Sansa any more pause then she already has.

If Joff had sheathed his sword after he had Arya disarmed and backing away then I could see an argument for self defense. However as we see from the quotes above, her kept after her with sword in hand. 

Also if Joff felt he was justified in how he acted against Arya then why did he tell his mother a different story?

"Joff told us what happened," the queen said. You and the butcher boy beat him with clubs while you set your wolf on him." Cersei 

2 hours ago, Lucius Lovejoy said:

Plus is not like this incident undid her betrothal, and she was wary of Joff thereafter except for during the feast at the Hand's tourney.

Sansa later says that the Hound was in his rights to kill Mycah because Sandor is his sworn sword, knowing full well Mycah did literally nothing to deserve to be run down by the Hound.

Arya screwed up her face in a scowl, "Jaime Lannister murdered Jory and Hewaard and Wyl, and the Hound murdered Mycah. Somebody should have beheaded them."

"It's not the same," Sansa said. "The Hound is Joffrey's sworn shield. Your butcher's boy attacked the prince."

"Liar," Arya said. Her hand clenched the blood orange so hard that red juice oozed between her fingers.

"Go ahead, call me all the names you want," Sansa said airily. You won't dare when I'm married to Joffrey. You'll have to bow to me and call me Your Grace." Sansa

Sansa still seemed pretty excited to be married to Joff and has even embraced his lie by claiming Mycah attacked him. Which was disappointing as she seemed pretty scared that Joff was possibly going to kill her sister before the wolf came.

But as I said, this is book one young and naive Sansa. I feel she has evolved a lot since then. She's endured terrible treatment and showed great strength in character to have lived through it.

Edited by Ralphis Baratheon

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1 hour ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

But as I said, this is book one young and naive Sansa. I feel she has evolved a lot since then. She's endured terrible treatment and showed great strength in character to have lived through it.

The reason of this post was to signify the double standards in the fandom. No one in the book thinks much about these incidents because they don't really matter. The fight was just 'children fighting' as Robert calls it. No one is saying that Sansa didn't make mistakes, it is just that, unlike you, people don't give her second chance. When I first read Sansa's chapters, I thought she was the stereotypical popular girl who in fiction(TV/Books/Movies) nowadays prompts others(like Arya) to be better, or gets some awakening or something like that in the end, making her a side character essentially, and I was like, oh no, not another girl drama, only to be surprised by my one eighty degree turn by the end of the series.

GRRM intended Sansa to be foil to Arya initially, but fans don't ever let her shed that image. That is what frustrates me the most.

Edited by lAPPYc

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7 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Both Cat and her darling Sansa are selfish and a bit self centered. I do not agree that either of them are the worst characters in the series. The book character Ms. Stark and her daughter merely portray the dark side of the female essence

If you think that Catelyn or Sansa are even close to the "dark side of the female essence" (whatever that is) then you haven't read the books very well. There are many women who can be argued to be worse than Catelyn and Sansa. In fact I'd say the two of them are among the better people. I do have some theories on why people dislike Catelyn but I'll save them for later.

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4 hours ago, LionoftheWest said:

If you think that Catelyn or Sansa are even close to the "dark side of the female essence" (whatever that is) then you haven't read the books very well. There are many women who can be argued to be worse than Catelyn and Sansa. In fact I'd say the two of them are among the better people. I do have some theories on why people dislike Catelyn but I'll save them for later.

I was using satire to mock “hate” threads. If you look at my words you quoted I said, “I do not agree that either of them are the worst characters in the series.”

If you want an explanation of my words,” dark side of the female essence,” I’ll give you one. In my life experience I have met females who exhibit some of the traits of Martin’s characters. I myself on occasion have been selfish and self centered. To deny that females can be petty, vicious and vindictive is foolish, but you will note that I didn’t say Cat or Sansa exhibited those traits, did I.

I would be interested in reading your response to the original post. Thanks

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It is possible that Lyanna was working against her family.  Knowing her father is plotting against their king, she ran away to throw a wrench in his plans to create his alliance.  She knew it was wrong and tried to work against him.  

Sansa has no excuse.  But I have to say.  She is better than Arya.  

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16 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

The book character Ms. Stark and her daughter merely portray the dark side of the female essence.

 I never knew there was such a thing as a female essence! Can you enlighten me? What are the dark and light sides of it? I'm a female myself and I never noticed anything essencialy different between me and male counterparts... 

Edited by Lady Dacey

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27 minutes ago, Lady Dacey said:

 I never knew there was such a thing as a female essence! Can you enlighten me? What are the dark and light sides of it? I'm a female myself and I never noticed anything essencialy different between me and male counterparts... 

Sorry no, I dunna think I can enlighten you or anyone.  :mellow: The word essence in the context I was using it merely means the human condition.

Maybe what I posted four hours ago to another poster will shed some light on it.

4 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

I was using satire to mock “hate” threads. If you look at my words you quoted I said, “I do not agree that either of them are the worst characters in the series.”

If you want an explanation of my words,” dark side of the female essence,” I’ll give you one. In my life experience I have met females who exhibit some of the traits of Martin’s characters. I myself on occasion have been selfish and self centered. To deny that females can be petty, vicious and vindictive is foolish, but you will note that I didn’t say Cat or Sansa exhibited those traits, did I.

I would be interested in reading your response to the original post. Thanks

 

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