Varysblackfyre321

Do you see the red God becoming popular in Westeroes?

42 posts in this topic

On ‎11‎/‎01‎/‎2018 at 11:17 PM, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Dany and Jon are the likeliest contenders for AA. Neither would champion the cause for "r'hllor is so great" Jon needs the support of the north and he's going to get enough flack for his policy concerning the wildlings-championing out a foreighn God who demands human sacrifice would be untenable for him

First, mel appeared in dragonstone and elected stannis as AA for reasons nobody really understands. Then we know that thoros first objective was to spread his faith in westeros and that he failed...

So why not assume that the red priests decided to create a false AA as a simbol to spread their faith in westeros? Even if along the way mel changes gears and thinks jon is AA it would still serve the purpose of the red priests... And as long as the religion doesn t burn innocents or weirwood trees jon won t forbid it.

In regards to danny. Do you think she will forbid the religion as long as they don t kill innocents? No

So as long as danny is living and showing her dragons she is a symbol that their faith is the best! 

Believe in me, the red priest are using the AA profecy to expand. I have faith in it.

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@Megorova you draw nice parallels between the mysteries behind Christianity and the narratives in the book, but when I said that I didn't believe GRRM wanted to tell a story that involved mass conversion to religion I meant that I believe he is a secularist who mostly sees organized religion as a bad thing in the real world, so I have a hard time seeing him telling a story where religion is positively affirmed at the end.  Maybe there will be a major religious revival among the commoners but the elites will "know" the "truth" which is non-religious.  I could be completely wrong about GRRM's personal opinions on religion though.  For what it is worth I am a practicing Catholic and well versed in the faith.

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2 hours ago, Megorova said:

In Christianity the Holy Trinity is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. In ASOIAF there's the Mother (Dany, Mother of dragons, mother of three), the Son (Rhaego, the Prince that was promised, the Stallion that will mount the world) and the ? Unded man? Ghost? some sort of Lazarus (Jon Snow).

Burning heart is symbol of Jesus in Catholicism. In ASOIAF burning heart is symbol of Prince that was promised, Messiah sent by Red God.

These parallels don't sound very parallel to me. GRRM is definetely depicting Christianity and more specifically the Catholic Church when he writes the Faith of the Seven, not R'hollorism. 

The holy trinity is parallel with "the seven who are one", or seven aspects of one supreme God. 

R'hollorism has two gods (one is good and the other is bad, but he's a god nonetheless) and in this is extremely different from Christianity, where "bad" or "sin" is the defined by the absence of god, not the presence of another entity. 

I see R'hollorism sort of filling the whole of neopentecostal churches is out modern world: strong sense of black and with morality, strong focuses on a messianic figure, burning of holy images of other religions, focus on individual prayer, fervor and trying to convert people... yeah, it fits nicely. 

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4 hours ago, LionoftheWest said:

A hybrid religion between R'hllor and the Great Stallion would indeed be interesting but I think that R'hllorism is to strictly monotheistic and with an official priesthood to enforce orthodoxy on its adherents so that syncretism is probably not very likely to happ on the R'hllor part of the divide.

That sort of syncretism of their religions are fairly possible. Because in both religions there was a prophecy about his coming (messenger/savior send by God).

There are similarities between religion of R'hllor and religion of the Stallion, so thru use of those similarities, those religions and their practitioners can be brought together and united.

AGOT, Dany's chapters:

Quote

“Why should you want to help my khal!”

All men are one flock, or so we are taught,” replied Mirri Maz Duur. “The Great Shepherd sent me to earth to heal his lambs, wherever I might find them.”

Quote

“What does it mean?” she asked. “What is this stallion? Everyone was shouting it at me, but I don’t understand.”

The stallion is the khal of khals promised in ancient prophecy, child. He will unite the Dothraki into a single khalasar and ride to the ends of the earth, or so it was promised. All the people of the world will be his herd.

“Oh,” Dany said in a small voice. Her hand smoothed her robe down over the swell of her stomach. “I named him Rhaego.”

This is from the Bible, said by Jesus:

Quote

14 “I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me - 15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father - and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16 I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.

Isn't what the Stallion will do, according to the prophecy, similar to what was done by Jesus? ALL people will be his herd. This is what Dothraki believe. So if their Stallion will worship Lord of Light, and will be his champion, then Dothraki will also do as he does.

Rhaego is both: fire in flesh, i.e. dragonseed, and Dothraki, who is khal of khals, or King of kings like Jesus. So he can simultaneously be a peaceful Red Priest, and Dothraki warlord.

Propagators of religion, that are serving to God, can simultaneously be warriors. For example monks of Shaolin, that practice Zen Buddhism, that is all about peace and natural balance, but simultaneously practice martial arts such as Shaolin Kung Fu.

When Dothraki are in their sacred city, they are prohibited from sheding blood, so when they are worshiping their God, they are also keeping to peaceful side.

And about Red Priests - if their promised Prince, will be not what they were expecting (a Dothraki boy), then they may be hesitant at first. But eventually they will accept him as he is. What will they do, if he will tell them, that as Khal of khals, it is his duty to gather all people of the world, as followers of one God, and make them practitioners of one religion? They will do as he said. Because Red Priests can only see some visions in fire, and can only try to interpret them. So they can be wrong about the meaning of those visions, and thus may not understand what the Lord of Light really wants from them. While the Messiah sent by R'hllor, will be a fire in flesh, and he will directly receive commands from R'hllor.

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2 hours ago, divica said:

First, mel appeared in dragonstone and elected stannis as AA for reasons nobody really understands. Then we know that thoros first objective was to spread his faith in westeros and that he failed...

 

Eh, she had a vision. And she filled in the gaps for what it was telling her. Maybe, it was to start the chain of events that would lead to the true AA to being discovered or saved or set the conditions for him or her to rise? I don't propecy is confusing. 

 

2 hours ago, divica said:

So why not assume that the red priests decided to create a false AA as a simbol to spread their faith in westeros? Even if along the way mel changes gears and thinks jon is AA it would still serve the purpose of the red priests... And as long as the religion doesn t burn innocents or weirwood trees jon won t forbid it.

I don't think it's that they planned a faa. I mean I think it's clear they know about the others and wights beyond the wall are coming and I think they're throwing everything at the wall and hoping its sticks. I mean you can't have any followers if the world is dead so best get to finding the real AA. And maybe he won't ban it(likely he won't), but he certianly won't ever champion it due to his own personal dealings with them. 

ards to danny. Do you think she will forbid the religion as long as they don t kill innocents? No

 of course not, but I'm not saying she would, she'd simply not champion it.

So as long as danny is living and showing her dragons she is a symbol that their faith is the best! 

 

 You bring up a valid I didn't consider. Thank you. Dany has already been used as a symbol to bring in converts (obviously her fire gimmick could be marketed as Pro-red God), among many of the down trodden in Essos. Though I wonder if such a thing could continuesly remain effective with her not giving the religion a public endorsement and I wonder if the Red priests are going to demand she burn the idiols of other religion to show them prefrence like Melisandre had done at DS with the 7 or the wall with the Weretrees. They are going to use the fact they found the messiah as reason to join to be sure.

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4 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Eh, she had a vision. And she filled in the gaps for what it was telling her. Maybe, it was to start the chain of events that would lead to the true AA to being discovered or saved or set the conditions for him or her to rise? I don't propecy is confusing. 

 

I don't think it's that they planned a faa. I mean I think it's clear they know about the others and wights beyond the wall are coming and I think they're throwing everything at the wall and hoping its sticks. I mean you can't have any followers if the world is dead so best get to finding the real AA. And maybe he won't ban it(likely he won't), but he certianly won't ever champion it due to his own personal dealings with them. 

ards to danny. Do you think she will forbid the religion as long as they don t kill innocents? No

 of course not, but I'm not saying she would, she'd simply not champion it.

So as long as danny is living and showing her dragons she is a symbol that their faith is the best! 

 

 You bring up a valid I didn't consider. Thank you. Dany has already been used as a symbol to bring in converts (obviously her fire gimmick could be marketed as Pro-red God), among many of the down trodden in Essos. Though I wonder if such a thing could continuesly remain effective with her not giving the religion a public endorsement and I wonder if the Red priests are going to demand she burn the idiols of other religion to show them prefrence like Melisandre had done at DS with the 7 or the wall with the Weretrees. They are going to use the fact they found the messiah as reason to join to be sure.

It is not just danny. As long as stannis or another person walks around with lithbringer (or an imitation) it is a simbol of their religion.

And if the red priest know about the others awakening why aren t them going to the Wall? why not convince their followers to go fight against the others? Sending mel to westeros and moqorro to danny is hardly fighting with all they have to avoid the apocalipse... 

And mel claiming stannis is AA makes zero sense. She knows he isn t borne in dragonstone, she gave him a false lightbringer and is consuming his fires to do shadowbabies to fight small battles. It is much easier to believe she wants to make the world believe he is AA than that he is the messiah of her religion and has 0 support from any other red priest, is being lied to and slowly consumed...

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2 hours ago, divica said:

It is not just danny. As long as stannis or another person walks around with lithbringer (or an imitation) it is a simbol of their religion.

And out of all the people she chose Stannis? Like, claim aside, he's woefully unpopular and generally ulikeable.

And he himself has made it clear he cares little for the religion. Not the type of champion one would hope for no?  A symbol would need to be someone who could inspire people.  Stannis really can't. 

2 hours ago, divica said:

And if the red priest know about the others awakening why aren t them going to the Wall? why not convince their followers to go fight against the others? Sending mel to westeros and moqorro to danny is hardly fighting with all they have to avoid the apocalipse... 

With what army? They're still just a cult. A rapidly expanding (in some parts of Essos) cult sure, but they wouldn't have the support to send an army all the way to Westeroes, and unless they've someone who likes them(or owes them) on the IT they can't just send them there, it'd be thought to be a forieghn invasion they can't  really do anything by themselves. Dany has the weapons that could possibly defeat the others so going to her makes sense. Stannis...well I still feel Mel is just following her vision. And doing what other charachters have done and try to "force" the conditions for prophecy(ex.Rhagear). 

 

Edited by Varysblackfyre321

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2 hours ago, Megorova said:

That sort of syncretism of their religions are fairly possible. Because in both religions there was a prophecy about his coming (messenger/savior send by God).

There are similarities between religion of R'hllor and religion of the Stallion, so thru use of those similarities, those religions and their practitioners can be brought together and united.

AGOT, Dany's chapters:

This is from the Bible, said by Jesus:

Isn't what the Stallion will do, according to the prophecy, similar to what was done by Jesus? ALL people will be his herd. This is what Dothraki believe. So if their Stallion will worship Lord of Light, and will be his champion, then Dothraki will also do as he does.

Rhaego is both: fire in flesh, i.e. dragonseed, and Dothraki, who is khal of khals, or King of kings like Jesus. So he can simultaneously be a peaceful Red Priest, and Dothraki warlord.

Propagators of religion, that are serving to God, can simultaneously be warriors. For example monks of Shaolin, that practice Zen Buddhism, that is all about peace and natural balance, but simultaneously practice martial arts such as Shaolin Kung Fu.

When Dothraki are in their sacred city, they are prohibited from sheding blood, so when they are worshiping their God, they are also keeping to peaceful side.

And about Red Priests - if their promised Prince, will be not what they were expecting (a Dothraki boy), then they may be hesitant at first. But eventually they will accept him as he is. What will they do, if he will tell them, that as Khal of khals, it is his duty to gather all people of the world, as followers of one God, and make them practitioners of one religion? They will do as he said. Because Red Priests can only see some visions in fire, and can only try to interpret them. So they can be wrong about the meaning of those visions, and thus may not understand what the Lord of Light really wants from them. While the Messiah sent by R'hllor, will be a fire in flesh, and he will directly receive commands from R'hllor.

Um what about the propecy of the Mongols to which the dothraki are based?

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14 hours ago, Lady Dacey said:

The holy trinity is parallel with "the seven who are one", or seven aspects of one supreme God.

The dragon has three heads. Three heads, who are a separate people, and ONE dragon. Three of those people together are the dragon.

Also those three people are the Mother, the Son, and the Holy Spirit (Jon Snow who will return from afterlife. I think he will become alive again, not like Beric or LSH, not a fire weight).

The Son is the promised Prince. In prophecies from Bible, Jesus was referred to as Prince. "John 3:16; 1 Corinthians 15:55. 3 Isaiah prophesied that Jesus would be called “Prince of Peace.” ")

Quote

R'hollorism has two gods (one is good and the other is bad, but he's a god nonetheless) and in this is extremely different from Christianity, where "bad" or "sin" is the defined by the absence of god, not the presence of another entity

In real world religions there are God and Devil. Evil is not absence of God, evil is evil, and that is Devil.

Red Priests don't worship the Great Other. There's no Temples of the Great Other. There's no priests that worship the Great Other. So he is the ASOIAF-version of Devil/Satan.

Quote

These parallels don't sound very parallel to me. GRRM is definetely depicting Christianity and more specifically the Catholic Church when he writes the Faith of the Seven, not R'hollorism

Let's use C for Christianity and Catholic Church,

S for religion of Seven,

D for religion of Dothraki that worship the Great Stallion,

R for religion of R'hllor, and

O for religion of Old Gods.

 

1. C & R.

Burning heart - symbol of Jesus in C, and symbol of Prince in R.

2. C & R & S.

Trinity - Father, Son and Spirit in C, three heads is the dragon in R, Seven are one in S.

3. C & D.

Khal of khals (Rhaego, the Prince and the Stallion) in D, King of kings (Jesus) in C.

4. C & D.

"All men are one flock", “The Great Shepherd" <- from religion of Mirri Maz Duur; "All the people of the world will be his herd." <- the Stallion in D; "I am the good shepherd" and "there shall be one flock and one shepherd" - said by Jesus in C.

5. C & D & R & O.

Bran ate paste made out of weirwood seeds and blood, and wedded to a tree, united with Old Gods, O.

Dany ate heart and blood of a stallion - horses are symbol of the Great Stallion in D.

Red Priests fill their mouths with fire and breathe flame into the deceased, as they believe that fire cleanses and is a bright gift. Fire is flesh and blood of R'hllor, R.

The Last Supper, disciples of Jesus ate bread and drunk wine, that were flesh and blood of Jesus, and thru this united with God, C.

All four are forms of Eucharist. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eucharist)

6. C & R.

Falling star/comet that heralded beginning of The End - prophecy of Long Night in R, and Apocalypse in C.

7. C & D.

The Mother of Mountains is a mountain that lies within sight of Vaes Dothrak and a lake known as the Womb of the World, from which, according to myth, the first man emerged riding on the first horse. It is a holy place for the Dothraki people and only men can set foot on it, D.

Holy Mountain Athos, Eastern Orthodox/Orthodox Catholic Church. "Virgin Mary was sailing accompanied by St John the Evangelist from Joppa to Cyprus to visit Lazarus. When the ship was blown off course to then-pagan Athos, it was forced to anchor near the port of Klement, close to the present monastery of Iviron. The Virgin walked ashore and, overwhelmed by the wonderful and wild natural beauty of the mountain, she blessed it and asked her Son for it to be her garden. A voice was heard saying "Let this place be your inheritance and your garden, a paradise and a haven of salvation for those seeking to be saved". From that moment the mountain was consecrated as the garden of the Mother of God and was out of bounds to all other women." C.

8. C & R.

Sacrifices to R'hllor are burned, R.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burnt_offering_(Judaism)

"Make an altar of earth for me and sacrifice on it your burnt offerings and fellowship offerings, your sheep and goats and your cattle" - Exodus 20:24

"Say to them: These are the offerings by fire that you are to present to the LORD: As a regular burnt offering every day, two yearling lambs without blemish. You shall offer one lamb in the morning, the other lamb you shall offer at twilight." -  Numbers 28.3-4

This is not exactly Christianity, that was prior birth of Jesus, but the God is the same, so this one is also C.

9. C & S. C & R.

In C there are nuns, priests, and Pope of Rome. In S there are septas/silent sisters, septons/sparrows, and High Septon/High Sparrow. To Red God serve Red Priests and Pristesses, and they have a leader - Hight Priest who is parallel to Pope, R.

10. C & S.

Bible in C. Seven Pointed Star in S.

11. C & O. C & R & D.

Christians/Judaists buried their dead in caves (Lazarus, Jesus), C. People of the North bury their dead in crypts, O.

Christians were told to either bury their dead in earth, or in caves, or to burn them. "Ashes to ashes." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cremation_in_the_Christian_World

Followers of R'hllor burn their dead, R.

12. C & R.

One of the most popular prayers in C:

"Our Father, Who art in Heaven, hallowed be Thy name; Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven. Give us this day our daily bread; and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us; and lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. Amen."

Prayer of Red Priests in R:

"Lead us from the darkness, O my Lord. Fill our hearts with fire, so we may walk your shining path. R'hllor, you are the light in our eyes, the fire in our hearts, the heat in our loins. Yours is the sun that warms our days, yours the stars that guard us in the dark of night. (Lord of Light, defend us. The night is dark and full of terrors. Lord of Light, protect us.) R'hllor who gave us breath, we thank you. R'hllor who gave us day, we thank you. (We thank you for the sun that warms us. We thank you for the stars that watch us. We thank you for our hearths and for our torches, that keep the savage dark at bay.)"

Aren't they similar? In both of them prayers ask for blessing, forgiveness, guidance, and daily bread/breath and day, light, fire and heat, and thank and praise/worship God.

Eight parallels between C and R, five between C and D, three between C and S, and two between C and O.

Aside from "flesh and blood" that is common for at least four religions of ASOIAF, two other parallels between C and S are sort of general - Holy book and servants of God. While majority of parallels between C and R, and C and D are specific, more individual and personal, about specific people or specific events.

To depict Faith of Seven GRRM just copied general outline of Christianity, while for portrayal of R'hllor's religion and religion of Dothraki, he used more detailed elements.

Edited by Megorova

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32 minutes ago, Megorova said:

In real world religions there are God and Devil. Evil is not absence of God, evil is evil, and that is Devil.

I don't know if you ever went to Sunday school, but "devil" is not in the Bible. Fallen angels and evil influences are never likened to God in the Catholic tradition. God is only one and more powerful than any other force. It's definetely very different than the concept of two deities, one good and one bad, battling each other, that we see in R'hollorism.

 

Quote

Red Priests don't worship the Great Other. There's no Temples of the Great Other. There's no priests that worship the Great Other. So he is the ASOIAF-version of Devil/Satan.

They don't worship him because he is seen as a source of evil, but he is most definitely a God - which is unthinkable for Catholics. 

Edited by Lady Dacey

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13 hours ago, divica said:

And if the red priest know about the others awakening why aren t them going to the Wall? why not convince their followers to go fight against the others? Sending mel to westeros and moqorro to danny is hardly fighting with all they have to avoid the apocalipse... 

Apocalypse is unavoidable. It will happen either way. The question is, whether it will ever end. It will, only if the Prince will defeat the Others. Though if he will fail, then the Long Night will last forever, and eventually all people will die.

And everything is due in it's own time. The Others are not there yet. So what can Red Priests do now - go beyond The Wall on their own, in snow and wilderness, to look there for a source of weights? And then what? The Prince and his magical Lightbringer are not with them yet. So they have to wait, for appearance of the Prince, and for arrival of the Others.

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Depends on who stays alive in there after the most important war. This religion will need its seeders, but it's a matter of question if these seeders would survive or not. So far, they didn't win the popularity contest. 

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2 hours ago, Lady Dacey said:

"devil" is not in the Bible.

I'm referring to all religions in which there are God and His Son, Virgin/Mother Mary, etc. That's Christianity, Catholicism, Orthodoxy, Judaism (partially); not Islam (too different to general concepts used in others).

Book of Revelation is part of the New Testament. And the evil one, is mentioned there.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Heaven

"Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8 But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9 The great dragon was hurled down - that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him. - Revelation 12:7–10 (NIV)"

And this (Matthew 4:1-11):

Quote

Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted[a] by the devil. After fasting forty days and forty nights, he was hungry. The tempter came to him and said, “If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread.”

Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.’[b]

Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. “If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down. For it is written:

“‘He will command his angels concerning you,
    and they will lift you up in their hands,
    so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’[c]

Jesus answered him, “It is also written: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’[d]

Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. “All this I will give you,” he said, “if you will bow down and worship me.”

10 Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.’[e]

11 Then the devil left him, and angels came and attended him.

But let's not discuss specifications of real world religions, let's stick with the future of religious movements in ASOIAF.

The point was, that there is a deity, that is worshiped by people (R'hllor), and there is evil being, that will bring death (or at least will try) to all people (the Great Other). Also there's a parallel between the Long Night and biblical Apocalypse. According to the Book of Revelation, after Apocalypse, there will be forever peace, eternal life, etc. And according to prophecy of Long Night, the Prince will chase away the darkness.

So the religion of R'hllor is slightly based on real world religion of single God. In both there are God, and opposing him evil force, some global horrible catastrophe, and a savior sent by God, whose coming was foretold by prophets.

So if GRRM will follow for R'hllorism, the same path of what happened with religional movements in real world (after birth of Jesus, his death and ressurection, religion of this God, got spread by disciples/apostles of Jesus, and by Jesus himself), then if in Planetos will appear the Prince that was promised, he will defeat the Others, and stay to spread religion of R'hllor among people, then this religion will become ASOIAF-version of Christianity. And Cristianity is the most popular world religion (in 2015 - 31.2% Christians, 24.1% Muslims, 16% unaffiliated, 15.1% Hindus, 5.7% folk religions, 0.8% other religions, 0.2% Jews).

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/04/05/christians-remain-worlds-largest-religious-group-but-they-are-declining-in-europe/

So far in Westeros the most common and organized religion is Faith of Seven. Though Old Gods are also still present there. Drowned God is worshiped only by Ironborn, and they are a minority.

In Essos, due to their numbers, probably the most popular is religion of Dothraki. Aside from R'hllor, inhabitants of Essos follow various different religions, and worship many deities. But aside from the Stallion and R'hllor, all others are deities of separate cities or small nations, such as the Great Shepherd of Lhazareen, Black Goat of Qohor, Many-Faced God of Braavos, the Lion of Night worshiped in Yi Ti, Lady of Spears worshiped by Unsullied.

If followers of R'hllor and the Stallion will be united under rule/guidance of mutual leader, that was sent by both of those Gods (Rhaego), and as result will be formed a new religion (for example they will worship Lord of Light galloping over the sky on a Great Stallion, and the symbol of this religion will be a blazing horseman), then other smaller religions of Essos, have zero chances to withstand pressure of this new religion.

According to beliefs of Dothraki, the first man emerged from the depths of lake the Womb of the World, riding on the back of the first horse. So isn't it logical that their horse god, the Great Stallion, should eventually be mounted by the strongest warrior? And could there be a stronger warrior than a dragonrider? And dragons are a living embodiment of fire, and thus they are children of R'hllor. Dragon = Great Stallion, it's rider = Lord of Light. So eventually all inhabitants of Essos will be followers of this religion, and it will spread like wildfire.

When the Long Night will begin, people of Westeros will pray to the Seven, and to the Drowned God, asking for their help and protection, but nobody will answer. Because those Gods are not real. And when it will be revealed, that the Old Gods are the source of the Others :thumbsdown: people will stop worshiping them. And then will come a Messiah, that was sent by R'hllor and the Stallion. Gues what will become the main religion of Westeros, after those events?

It doesn't look like GRRM is planning for Westerosians to stick to the Faith of Seven. Because all prophecies about the Savior, are not from this Faith.

Edited by Megorova

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1 hour ago, Megorova said:

the Old Gods are the source of the Others :thumbsdown: people will stop worshiping them. 

This is incorrect the old gods are the gods of earth and nature that stands between fire and ice. The lion of night, the great other, the stranger these are the names of the god of the others.

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19 minutes ago, Sensenmenn said:

This is incorrect the old gods are the gods of earth and nature that stands between fire and ice.

We'll see about that.

I think that Old Gods created the Others and wights. Because there are a few suspicious things about the Children.

1. From where do they get all that meat? They are underground, but somehow they are able each day to feed Bran and his companions with meat and blood.

I think it's human meat. And it gets delivered to the cave by wights. They hunt people and animals above ground, and bring this "food" to Children.

2. Why Coldhands, who is obviously a wight, is serving to them? And how come other wights, that were swarming above ground, still didn't killed/annihilated him? He is one, and there are many of them. So why he is still functioning? Can't many defeat one?

3. And all this situation with Bran looks like the Children lured Bran into that cave, and then the mousetrap closed - there are wights outside, so Bran and his friends can't go out.

4. Add to that Melisandre's vision, after seeing which, she thought that Bran and Bloodraven are servants of the Great Other. Could be that she was actually right. Bran himself is still unaware of this (that wights are work of Children and Old Gods).

5. Add to that Bran's final moments - vision in which the woman with white hair sacrificed a man to a weirwood tree, and fed to it that man's blood. That woman was the Female Other, with whom bedded one of previous Lord Commanders of Night's Watch, who was also a Stark. And that scene was happening in Winterfell. That Stark and the Female Other was sacrificing humans to weirwood trees/Old Gods/the Others.

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It can go either way. If Jon Snow turns out to be Azor Ahai in the books and somehow defeats the Others, then i imagine a vast majority of the people in Westeros are going to turn the Red God AKA R'hllor. I can also see the North refusing to accept a new religion and a new "God" considering how hard they fought to keep their religion ( the old Gods ) even when the faith of the 7 took over as the dominant/main religion in Westeros. The Ironborn are definitely not going to turn their backs on the Drowned God no matter what happens. 

 On the other hand even if R'hllor turns out to be real, and his champion Azor Ahai defeats the Others, the chances are that Azor Ahai ( if the prophecy is even real ) is probably going to die fighting the Others and the survivors of the war are going to be the ones who write down how it all went down and what happened ( as long as it suits their goals ). So if they decide that they don't want a new religion in Westeros they could easily say that the new Gods ( faith of the seven religion ) were the ones who helped them defeat the Others. They erase any and all records of Azor Ahai and his involvement in the war, and in 50-100 years no one will know the truth of what really happened ( that's if the Others don't kill them all and win ).  In any case it doesn't really matter that much in the end. 

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On 12/01/2018 at 11:14 PM, Lucius Lovejoy said:

Maybe there will be a major religious revival among the commoners but the elites will "know" the "truth" which is non-religious.  

I think so too. I love your use of "".

The war for dawn is won - was it by the smart use of technology and strategy, or by the use of magic, or by divine intervention? Is the commander who won the war just a common man/woman, or a sorcerer, or a messianic figure? Who would be right, believers or secularists? And which of the religious interpretations is the right one, if there happen to be some different ones as it's bound to happen? 

A honestly hope the author doesn't provide an objective answer and we can continue having doubts and different opinions about it :) 

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On 1/13/2018 at 0:35 PM, Lady Dacey said:

I don't know if you ever went to Sunday school, but "devil" is not in the Bible. Fallen angels and evil influences are never likened to God in the Catholic tradition. God is only one and more powerful than any other force. It's definetely very different than the concept of two deities, one good and one bad, battling each other, that we see in R'hollorism.

 

They don't worship him because he is seen as a source of evil, but he is most definitely a God - which is unthinkable for Catholics. 

Thanks for posting this, I started reading back through this thread and thought I was going to have to explain Manichaeism and Gnosticism and why they are heretical to the Catholic Church, as well as bust out my old catechism for the church teachings on Satan.

8 hours ago, Lady Dacey said:

I think so too. I love your use of "".

The war for dawn is won - was it by the smart use of technology and strategy, or by the use of magic, or by divine intervention? Is the commander who won the war just a common man/woman, or a sorcerer, or a messianic figure? Who would be right, believers or secularists? And which of the religious interpretations is the right one, if there happen to be some different ones as it's bound to happen? 

A honestly hope the author doesn't provide an objective answer and we can continue having doubts and different opinions about it :) 

That would be a fantastic way for it to end ambiguously - I hope so too!

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1 hour ago, Lucius Lovejoy said:

Thanks for posting this, I started reading back through this thread and thought I was going to have to explain Manichaeism and Gnosticism and why they are heretical to the Catholic Church, as well as bust out my old catechism for the church teachings on Satan.

It amazes me how much people will talk about things they clearly don't understand/haven't studied with so much confidence. From genetics to religion... Sometimes the comparisons people draw are hard to take seriously and respond to, because the premises they're build upon are false 

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