LordMiddleFinger

Elite Fighters vs Raw Physical strength who wins?

26 posts in this topic

 So i was thinking about this the other day and i would like to hear your thoughts on this, do fighters/warriors with superior fighting skills ( swordsmanship, fighting strategy, speed, experience, incredible talent ) really have an upper hand against fighters with incredible physical strength? In my opinion they do. But what would happen if a small group of Elite swordsman/warriors are attacked by a larger group of freakishly strong and big warriors? For example, i think that in a fight between 4 Elite Swordsman against 7 or 8 super strong and freakishly big/tall/muscular fighters, the 4 Elite swordsman would probably win. What do you guys think?

 BTW just to give you an example of what i mean, i chose these fighters to decide which group has the advantage:

Elite Swordsman team: Ser Arthur Dayne, Ser Barristan Selmy, Ser Jaime Lannister and Daemon I Blackfyre AKA "The Black Dragon" AKA "The Warrior Himself"
Raw physical strength/power team: Gregor Clegane, Sandor Clegane, Robert Baratheon, Greatjon Umber, Smalljon Umber, Strong Belwas, Victarion Greyjoy, Khal Drogo.

Who wins?

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I'd put Sandor Clegane into a "raw physical strength plus elite swordsmanship" category.

That said, the outcome would depend on the battlefield, the leadership, little things like the weather and time of day, the equipment each has (mounted or not? their favorite weapons, or just a sword? degree of armoring etc.) And why do you want the match to be two to one in favor of the behemoths?

I hope you didn't want just the one outcome...

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I believe elite swordsmanship / footwork / agility / vision is definitely more favorable than brute strength and sheer size.  That being said, the specific example you gave above includes a lot of men on the strong side who have a combination of crafty skills so I'd have to go with their team given the sheer number of men they had.  Still, I would take Jaime Lannister over The Mountain, Arthur Dayne over Robert, Barristan over Mance, etc in one on one match ups.

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2 hours ago, LordMiddleFinger said:



 BTW just to give you an example of what i mean, i chose these fighters to decide which group has the advantage:

Elite Swordsman team: Ser Arthur Dayne, Ser Barristan Selmy, Ser Jaime Lannister and Daemon I Blackfyre AKA "The Black Dragon" AKA "The Warrior Himself"
Raw physical strength/power team: Gregor Clegane, Sandor Clegane, Robert Baratheon, Greatjon Umber, Smalljon Umber, Strong Belwas, Victarion Greyjoy, Khal Drogo.

Who wins?

Half your physical team come under the elite class, their physical strenght may be the edge that takes them into the elite bracket but still.

Robert beat Rhaegar but Robert is one of the elite so proves nothing and the fight was close.

A better answer would be Neds mounted 7 vs 3 kingsguard.on foot.  The KG almost won despite being outnumber and unhorsed.  So I would agree with you the elites should win, though 7 giants v KG would be a challenge :)

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52 minutes ago, zandru said:

I'd put Sandor Clegane into a "raw physical strength plus elite swordsmanship" category.

That said, the outcome would depend on the battlefield, the leadership, little things like the weather and time of day, the equipment each has (mounted or not? their favorite weapons, or just a sword? degree of armoring etc.) And why do you want the match to be two to one in favor of the behemoths?

I hope you didn't want just the one outcome...

 I totally agree with you that Sandor Clegane is a mixture of incredible physical strength and impressive fighting skills ( he's a very good swordsman but i wouldn't put him in the same league as Arthur Dayne, Barristan Selmy, Jaime Lannister and Daemon I Blackfyre ). I thought the big guys needed a skilled swordsman on their team to make it more interesting. 

 Now i admit that i should've been more specific about the conditions as you yourself mentioned: Battlefield, leaders, weather conditions, equipment and weapons and all that stuff. The idea was that all of these fighters are:
- In their prime.
- They are using their favorite weapons ( which means that Ser Arthur is using his greatsword Dawn, is in his Kingsguard armor. Jaime has his  
gilded longsword and Kingsguard armor, Barristan also has a Longsword and his Kingsguard armor, Daemon has his Valyrian Steel sword, Blackfyre, Robert is using his Warhammer, Victarion has his battle axe, Greatjon has his giant greatsword, Belwas has his  curved arakh and his shield, Gregor is using his two handed greatsword and is in his ridiculous armor which makes him even more dangerous, Sandor has his longsword and his standard armor, Drogo fights with an  arakh of course, he also has his tiny bells LOL. )
- They fight to the death
- Fight takes place in an open field somewhere, no distractions from other people.
- Day time, it's a little cold but no rain, snow and stuff like that.


 
 "And why do you want the match to be two to one in favor of the behemoths?"

Great question! It is because i want to know if you guys think that superior skill, intelligence and natural talent is enough to overcome something like a team of, well, basically monsters who outnumber you two to 1. And i welcome all opinions and outcomes. 

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1 hour ago, elder brother jonothor dar said:

Half your physical team come under the elite class, their physical strenght may be the edge that takes them into the elite bracket but still.

Robert beat Rhaegar but Robert is one of the elite so proves nothing and the fight was close.

A better answer would be Neds mounted 7 vs 3 kingsguard.on foot.  The KG almost won despite being outnumber and unhorsed.  So I would agree with you the elites should win, though 7 giants v KG would be a challenge :)

I agree with you that Robert was more than just a "big, strong guy with a warhammer" he was also a very skilled warrior in my opinion but Rhaegar is overrated if you ask me. Not an Elite swordsman/warrior which is why he lost against Robert. 

As for the others: Gregor is a freaking idiot. He barely has any actual talent, he is just a freak of nature and a incredibly strong maniac who loves killing, so of course he's going to be a challenge to take down. He is not in the elite class of fighters however. Victarion is a vicious warrior and very brave but he is not very bright, in fact, he is an idiot according to George R.R. Martin. Also he relies too much on his physical strength to win. Smalljon Umber doesn't have many impressive feats, he is a huge man but not really known for his skill with a sword. Greatjon is probably closer to being an elite warrior considering that Jaime actually considers him a challenge. Strong Belwas is very skilled and experienced but he is too reckless, I'd like to see him try that "I'll let you cut me one time before i kill you" shit with Ser Arthur Dayne or any other member of the elite team, he'd be dead in a second if he did that. Drogo is quite agile and fast for his size but he would be like a fish out of water fighting against someone like Jaime, Arthur, Barristan or Daemon. Which is why it's a 8 against 4 type of scenario. 

Edited by LordMiddleFinger

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2 hours ago, Lucius Lovejoy said:

Still, I would take Jaime Lannister over The Mountain, Arthur Dayne over Robert, Barristan over Mance, etc in one on one match ups.

Agreed. I think two handed Jaime would best anyone at the start of series, that's why losing his sword hand was such a huge deal.

One of the main reasons I think Jaime is so good, on top of being a prodigy, is because he served under Arthur Dayne, Ser. Barristan ect...He was able to learn from all the best and study their moves then add them to his arsenal. 

Edited by Ralphis Baratheon
added some thoughts

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In controlled settings, "elite fighting" (which I assume also contains intelligent fighting) wins over raw physical strenght. It has been known since old military strategy.

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With that list, definitely the "Raw physical strength/power team" wins. It is like the old Bruce Lee vs the Muhammad Ali drunken discussions.

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I think Sandor fits the Elite Swordsmen Team, and he would choose these team, too. He wants to get rid of  Gregor.

4 against 8, the Raw Power Team would win, many of them are actually quite skilled.

If Sandor joined the Elite Swordsmen Team, that colud change things.

 

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27 minutes ago, 1/7 Maester said:

I think Sandor fits the Elite Swordsmen Team, and he would choose these team, too. He wants to get rid of  Gregor.

Indeed. As the "teams" stand, Sandor would probably go after his brother first, leaving it 7 to 4, then having achieved his life's ambition, let the remaining 6 behemoths go it alone. Which wouldn't be for long, as has been noted.

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In the books, strength seems to win out.  Brienne takes down Loras, Biter takes down Brienne, Dunk repeatedly takes out more skilled fighters, a dying Gregor can still kill Oberyn, Victarion takes down Serry, etc etc.

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Just now, aryagonnakill#2 said:

In the books, strength seems to win out.  Brienne takes down Loras, Biter takes down Brienne, Dunk repeatedly takes out more skilled fighters, a dying Gregor can still kill Oberyn, Victarion takes down Serry, etc etc.

Just one thing. We don t know how good a swordsman loras is. Just that he is great with a spear. So maybe he isn t that good with a sword and therefore brienne isn t that good...

And I would like to know how anyone would defeat the mountain. It isn t possible to parry his sword strikes... It is needed a special technique to fight him and I don t know if these great swordsman can do it...

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13 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Agreed. I think two handed Jaime would best anyone at the start of series, that's why losing his sword hand was such a huge deal.

One of the main reasons I think Jaime is so good, on top of being a prodigy, is because he served under Arthur Dayne, Ser. Barristan ect...He was able to learn from all the best and study their moves then add them to his arsenal. 

Totally with you here, the Kingslayer was the best swordsman of the bunch.  I believe his reputation may have even suffered because of what he did to Aerys - he may be remembered as an even superior swordsman if the public and nobility thought better of his character.  Very tragic him losing his swordhand, but as he says, he was that hand, so very necessary for his growth.

@divica @aryagonnakill#2 I think to Jaime's fight with Brienne which he almost won despite being chained and malnourished as a prisoner for several months as some evidence of elite over strong, but yeah there seems to be much book evidence for strong over elite - I'd add glamoured- Mance over Jon as an example of that, though I wouldn't count The Mountain over Oberyn as that was really strength over vanity at the end.

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9 minutes ago, Lucius Lovejoy said:

Totally with you here, the Kingslayer was the best swordsman of the bunch.  I believe his reputation may have even suffered because of what he did to Aerys - he may be remembered as an even superior swordsman if the public and nobility thought better of his character.  Very tragic him losing his swordhand, but as he says, he was that hand, so very necessary for his growth.

@divica @aryagonnakill#2 I think to Jaime's fight with Brienne which he almost won despite being chained and malnourished as a prisoner for several months as some evidence of elite over strong, but yeah there seems to be much book evidence for strong over elite - I'd add glamoured- Mance over Jon as an example of that, though I wouldn't count The Mountain over Oberyn as that was really strength over vanity at the end.

In mance's case I don t know. He was the best ranger and was able to defeat any wildling leader that chalanged him. We even have hints that he defeated clans champions... He is probably a very good swordsman. However we basically have no idea how good fighters in the north are.

In regards to jamie vs brienne don t forget that brienne is a woman. Even if jamie was malnourished I doubt he lost enough muscle to be much weaker than brienne. I think their fight is more proof that loras isn t that good. If I am not mistaken it is in that book that oberyn says that he doubts loras is as good a fighter as he is a jouster.

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10 minutes ago, divica said:

I think their fight is more proof that loras isn t that good. If I am not mistaken it is in that book that oberyn says that he doubts loras is as good a fighter as he is a jouster.

Indeed. Doesn't even Loras mention that his brother Garlan is the better sword? Garland (the Good) habitually trained against 3 or so other swordsmen at a time. Garlan is also bigger and presumably stronger than Loras. Loras excels in "knocking men off of horses with a stick" (thanks, Olenna!)

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I'm tired of Ser Jamie being placed with the likes of Ser Arthur Dayne and Daemon Blackfyre, Barristan Selmy etc. 

Yes he is unbelievably gifted and has the potential to be as great as the other knights I listed but Jamie hasnt really accomplished much YET. 

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15 minutes ago, Stormking902 said:

I'm tired of Ser Jamie being placed with the likes of Ser Arthur Dayne and Daemon Blackfyre, Barristan Selmy etc. 

Yes he is unbelievably gifted and has the potential to be as great as the other knights I listed but Jamie hasnt really accomplished much YET. 

George said he was the best fighter at the start of the series.  So plain and simple he is the top of the list.

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36 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

George said he was the best fighter at the start of the series.  So plain and simple he is the top of the list.

Your list perhaps....... I dont put a man who hasn't beatin anyone of consequence in his entire life besides maybe one guy on the top of my list thx. 

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38 minutes ago, Stormking902 said:

Your list perhaps....... I dont put a man who hasn't beatin anyone of consequence in his entire life besides maybe one guy on the top of my list thx. 

No, not my list, the authors, who did you think George was referring to?

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