Darry Man

Six and One, Half Dozen of the Others

24 posts in this topic

18 hours ago, White Ravens said:

I read Wizz's Hollow Hills thread when it occurred on this forum but I'm not nearly as convinced as you are that a good case was made for the Nightfort being located over a hollow hill which hosts (or hosted) a greenseer. 

Hi @White Ravens  :)

I appreciate your opinion of course, but thought I would attempt to support my claim that the Nightfort is indeed built on or next to a hollow hill.  Most of the sites I listed in my essay are confirmed to have been built on high ground with underground access/caverns, but you are right to notice the Nightfort lacks the textual confirmation of a hill [I cited the likelihood of a 'fort' being built on high ground instead]  However, I have since had some supportive text pointed out to me which I would like to share with you in the hope on strengthening my case.  ;)  Of the necessary ingredients for the site to be perfect for greenseeing the weirwood tree and magic is confirmed, so what of the [hollow] hill/caverns?......

The Nightfort is confirmed to have been built in hilly, mountainous terrain which is of course cavern country.......

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Jon IV

The Wall was often said to stand seven hundred feet high, but Jarl had found a place where it was both higher and lower. Before them, the ice rose sheer from out of the trees like some immense cliff, crowned by wind-carved battlements that loomed at least eight hundred feet high, perhaps nine hundred in spots. But that was deceptive, Jon realized as they drew closer. Brandon the Builder had laid his huge foundation blocks along the heights wherever feasible, and hereabouts the hills rose wild and rugged.

He had once heard his uncle Benjen say that the Wall was a sword east of Castle Black, but a snake to the west. It was true. Sweeping in over one huge humped hill, the ice dipped down into a valley, climbed the knife edge of a long granite ridgeline for a league or more, ran along a jagged crest, dipped again into a valley deeper still, and then rose higher and higher, leaping from hill to hill as far as the eye could see, into the mountainous west.

The Wall is described as 'a snake to the west' of Castle Black 'leaping from hill to hill as far as the eye could see'.  The Nightfort is situated within this area.     

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Jon III

A wind sighed through the trees, rich with the smell of pine needles, tugging at his faded blacks. Jon could see the Wall looming high and dark to the south, a great shadow blocking out the stars. The rough hilly ground made him think they must be somewhere between the Shadow Tower and Castle Black, and likely closer to the former. For days they had been wending their way south between deep lakes that stretched like long thin fingers along the floors of narrow valleys, while flint ridges and pine-clad hills jostled against one another to either side. Such ground made for slow riding, but offered easy concealment for those wishing to approach the Wall unseen.

This is confirmation that the hilly terrain stretches all the way from the Shadow Tower to Castle Black, the Nightfort is in a prime location to have caverns below it.  We also have text confirming caverns underneath the Wall........     

Quote

The World of Ice and Fire - Ancient History: The Dawn Age

It brings to mind a transcription of a wildling song in Maester Herryk's History of the Kings-Beyond-the-Wall, regarding the brothers Gendel and Gorne. They were called upon to mediate a dispute between a clan of children and a family of giants over the possession of a cavern. Gendel and Gorne, it is said, ultimately resolved the matter through trickery, making both sides disavow any desire for the cavern, after the brothers discovered it was a part of a greater chain of caverns that eventually passed beneath the Wall.
So the Nightfort is built in mountainous terrain with hills as far as the eye can see, and we have confirmation there is a great chain of caverns beneath the Wall.  I think the subterranean evidence is suggestive too.......
18 hours ago, White Ravens said:

The presence of tunnels below the Nightfort and other Night's Watch castles along the wall is just a logical development of coping with severe winters that last for years at a time.  Similarly, downtown Toronto has a warren of underground tunnels totaling over 30km that allow people to move between buildings and malls without going outside to brave the elements.

Perhaps everything east of Castle Black is exactly as you suggest, but with the caverns beneath the Wall and the sheer amount of hills west of Castle Black it seems likely they could fashion the tunnels so as to link with the caves.  Bloodraven's cave has the underground river running through it, as does the subterranean below the Nightfort.....

Quote

 

A Storm of Swords - Bran IV

"How did you get through the Wall?" Jojen demanded as Sam struggled to his feet. "Does the well lead to an underground river, is that where you came from? You're not even wet................"

It was a long way down. The top of the well was bathed in moonlight, but it grew smaller and dimmer every time they went around. Their footsteps echoed off the damp stones, and the water sounds grew louder. "Should we have brought torches?" Jojen asked.

"Your eyes will adjust," said Sam. "Keep one hand on the wall and you won't fall."

The well grew darker and colder with every turn. When Bran finally lifted his head around to look back up the shaft, the top of the well was no bigger than a half-moon. "Hodor," Hodor whispered, "Hodorhodorhodorhodorhodorhodor," the well whispered back. The water sounds were close, but when Bran peered down he saw only blackness.

A turn or two later Sam stopped suddenly. He was a quarter of the way around the well from Bran and Hodor and six feet farther down, yet Bran could barely see him. He could see the door, though. The Black Gate, Sam had called it, but it wasn't black at all.

 

It is unlikely the Nights Watch created this river, so it stands to reason that it's running through the natural cave system below the Wall. 

19 hours ago, White Ravens said:

I like the idea put forth by LmL that the Night's King may have actually caused the Long Night by breaking the moon but the string of supposition and metaphorical interpretations is too much for me to hold in my head and breath life and probability into.

I too like this idea, although it must be said that if this is the case it's likely the Night's King was a greenseer.  Breaking the moon would take some powerful [greenseeresque] sorcery.  

Cheers @White Ravens hopefully this has added some clarity to my thoughts and strengthened the case for the Nightfort as a castle built on or around a hollow hill and perfect for having hosted a greenseer in the past.  If not, no worries.   :cheers:  

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20 hours ago, White Ravens said:

I read Wizz's Hollow Hills thread when it occurred on this forum but I'm not nearly as convinced as you are that a good case was made for the Nightfort being located over a hollow hill which hosts (or hosted) a greenseer.  The presence of tunnels below the Nightfort and other Night's Watch castles along the wall is just a logical development of coping with severe winters that last for years at a time.  Similarly, downtown Toronto has a warren of underground tunnels totaling over 30km that allow people to move between buildings and malls without going outside to brave the elements. 

The hollow-hills hypothesis is pretty solid, and there is a reason for it too. Basically, GRRM is evoking the weirwood motif at most locations of significance in his story, as the pattern occurs time and time again.

It's his version of the Cosmic Tree.

 

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59 minutes ago, Wizz-The-Smith said:

Hi @White Ravens  :)

I appreciate your opinion of course, but thought I would attempt to support my claim that the Nightfort is indeed built on or next to a hollow hill.  Most of the sites I listed in my essay are confirmed to have been built on high ground with underground access/caverns, but you are right to notice the Nightfort lacks the textual confirmation of a hill [I cited the likelihood of a 'fort' being built on high ground instead]  However, I have since had some supportive text pointed out to me which I would like to share with you in the hope on strengthening my case.  ;)  Of the necessary ingredients for the site to be perfect for greenseeing the weirwood tree and magic is confirmed, so what of the [hollow] hill/caverns?......

The Nightfort is confirmed to have been built in hilly, mountainous terrain which is of course cavern country.......

The Wall is described as 'a snake to the west' of Castle Black 'leaping from hill to hill as far as the eye could see'.  The Nightfort is situated within this area.     

This is confirmation that the hilly terrain stretches all the way from the Shadow Tower to Castle Black, the Nightfort is in a prime location to have caverns below it.  We also have text confirming caverns underneath the Wall........     

So the Nightfort is built in mountainous terrain with hills as far as the eye can see, and we have confirmation there is a great chain of caverns beneath the Wall.  I think the subterranean evidence is suggestive too.......

Perhaps everything east of Castle Black is exactly as you suggest, but with the caverns beneath the Wall and the sheer amount of hills west of Castle Black it seems likely they could fashion the tunnels so as to link with the caves.  Bloodraven's cave has the underground river running through it, as does the subterranean below the Nightfort.....

It is unlikely the Nights Watch created this river, so it stands to reason that it's running through the natural cave system below the Wall. 

I too like this idea, although it must be said that if this is the case it's likely the Night's King was a greenseer.  Breaking the moon would take some powerful [greenseeresque] sorcery.  

Cheers @White Ravens hopefully this has added some clarity to my thoughts and strengthened the case for the Nightfort as a castle built on or around a hollow hill and perfect for having hosted a greenseer in the past.  If not, no worries.   :cheers:  

 Thank you for taking the time to respond.  You have argued your case most eloquently and convincingly!  Consider my mind changed on the subject of Castle Black having natural caverns below it.  :cheers:

I hope that Castle Black and the Black Gate play a major role in Winds!

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22 minutes ago, White Ravens said:

 Thank you for taking the time to respond.  You have argued your case most eloquently and convincingly!  Consider my mind changed on the subject of Castle Black having natural caverns below it.  :cheers:

I hope that Castle Black and the Black Gate play a major role in Winds!

No problem.  Glad to have changed your mind, I too hope we see the caverns play a key role in Winds.  :D  :cheers:

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