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U.S. Politics: And a Happy "Shithole" Year


Sivin

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8 hours ago, Week said:

 The Washington Post is all you could come with?  

How is pointing out that aid money was misued and redirect  inane and vulgar ? You don't have to do much digging to see that things like that did actually  happen. 

You do know who Duvalier, Mobutu  and Muguge are ?  

 

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Well guys, I made an honest attempt. It's the only thing I could do, really. I tried folks. 

Sorry I let you all down, if I was better then maybe I could have made a connection and thereby a difference.

But hey, we can't always get through and that's ok! Some people aren't ready, and I believe that only a miniscule fraction of people CAN'T get there.

I know it's tacky as fuck, but Dr. King was always about trying to make that connection. To form that bridge no matter what efforts it took.

It's not alright that some people won't step into the 21st century and act in basic good faith, it absolutely isn't.

But the only thing worse would be to throw up our hands and give up the fight.

That's the only way they win, when we stop having love in our hearts that is open to everyone. Even the worst among us are worthy of some compassion and effort, especially if it's hard to give it to them.

Just my opinion of course.

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Yglesias on Trump’s relationship with the Republican Party.

Touches on what I think we’ve discussed about Trump simply relying on the Republican Party to make policy for him.

And of course, the Republican Party will not be able to be disown him. They may try, like they did with Dubya, but they cannot be permitted to get away with it.

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/1/16/16883290/donald-trump-congress-fitness-policy-immigration

Quote

Over the course of approximately one year in office, Donald Trump has made it clear that he possesses no hidden depths and is exactly as lazy, ignorant, and unprepared to be president as he appeared to be on the 2016 campaign trail.

He’s also amassed a level of support from Republican officials that he never had as a candidate, turning once-fierce opponents into strong supporters and utterly quieting the significant doubts that GOP leaders in Congress once held about him.

It’s not a coincidence. Conservatives embrace Trump not despite his inability to conduct the functions of his office in a satisfactory manner, but because of it.

 

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1 hour ago, GAROVORKIN said:

 The Washington Post is all you could come with?  

How is pointing out that aid money was misued and redirect  inane and vulgar ? You don't have to do much digging to see that things like that did actually  happen. 

You do know who Duvalier, Mobutu  and Muguge are ?  

 

You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make them drink. If you cannot be bothered to read a short article that provides a hint of context of the long history of racism, exploitation, and violence towards Haiti from the western powers (particularly the US and France).then there is no point in trying to actually reason, educate, or listen to you at all. 

@Pony Queen Jace
Bravo to you for the attempt. Unfortunately, whether it is an inability, disinterest, or simply trolling -- somehow GAOVORKIN finds it necessary to sea-lion every few days and it is fucking maddening to just let the asinine one-liners go. 

Simply put, there is no there there. As many others have previously pointed out -- engagement is a waste of time and effort. B)

 

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4 hours ago, GAROVORKIN said:

The people in Cuba got free healthcare and Education but at the cost of political rights and freedom .  How is it that Trudeau overlooks  the other not so pleasant realities of the Castro regime? 

And how much time over several decades have YOU spent on the ground in Cuba, and hanging out with Cubans of all strata of Cuban society, that you all believe you have the insight and right and knowledge to speak definitely about Fidel, Cuba and Cubans, while reducing all of Cuba and Cubans to a single person, i.e. Fidel -- while simultaneously ignoring the opinion of all three that many in the Caribbean, Central America and South America share, opinions diametrically opposed to yours.  O - wait -- these are all nations on the shithole country list, therefore unworthy paying any attention to or learning anything about.

Not to mention that Canada has had long and close relationships with Cuba the state on and Cubans the people for many decades.

Once again, people on this forum, who pride themselves on knowing so much more than the average USians,  defaulted to viewing the entire world through the USian lens, which is a truly flawed vision.  This vision that the US matters most to everyone and everything is mattering less and less and less EVERYWHERE, including Cuba. What Cuban and Mexicans and many others globally care about when it comes to the US now isn't even wealth (US dollars are worth less in Cuba even than here and nobody in Cuba even wants US dollars now, because they lose value when exchanging it) -- but the physical threats, both militarily and environmentally -- and the harm the US is already doing to family members in the US.

It's funny, isn't it, how differently one sees things, when spending extensive time actually on the ground in the countries being discussed and spending even more extensive time with people there -- and o yah. speaking Spanish, French, Kreyol and Portuguese while doing so.

 

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3 minutes ago, Week said:

You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make them drink. If you cannot be bothered to read a short article that provides a hint of context of the long history of racism, exploitation, and violence towards Haiti from the western powers (particularly the US and France).then there is no point in trying to actually reason, educate, or listen to you at all. 

Is cool man! It's ok! You been trying, a lot of people have. If they're not ready then they're not ready.

Maybe take a break for a while, just stop engaging if you have to. There's no shame in you failing to get through, don't get frustrated. That's what they want. There will come a time when they're ready I hope, it's our job to be there with compassion when that time comes.

So if you get frustrated just take a break. We are all frustrated, and for a reason, an unfortunate amount of the time we are trying to reach out. What's important is to acknowledge that it's not helping and step away. 

Instead of the completely reasonable angry response, I beg you to instead take a deep breath and when you're ready try to work out another way to approach the situation. It's not fair that the burden falls on our shoulders, but the fact is that the truth is a burden. And the right to bear it is the most precious gift that the good god Darwin saw fit to give the imperfect creature that is man.

So bear it proudly, and know that letting them have the 'last word' in an exchange is worth the opportunity to step back and reevaluate different options, no matter what they might be.

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25 minutes ago, Week said:

You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make them drink. If you cannot be bothered to read a short article that provides a hint of context of the long history of racism, exploitation, and violence towards Haiti from the western powers (particularly the US and France).then there is no point in trying to actually reason, educate, or listen to you at all. 

@Pony Queen Jace
Bravo to you for the attempt. Unfortunately, whether it is an inability, disinterest, or simply trolling -- somehow GAOVORKIN finds it necessary to sea-lion every few days and it is fucking maddening to just let the asinine one-liners go. 

Simply put, there is no there there. As many others have previously pointed out -- engagement is a waste of time and effort. B)

 

No! It's not a waste! It's never a waste, PLEASE don't think that.

As long as there is one person who believes in respecting the truth who still draws breath it's never a waste.

I would throw the proverbial switch to execute Kim Jong Un myself, his crimes are unforgivable. But until the moment that his heart stops beating I would be open and receptive to trying to show him that truth and democracy are the only ideals to which a person MUST be beholden.

And I don't think Kim Jong Un posts on these boards, so while I wouldn't ever ask you to have a conversation with a monster like that or to refuse to rise to his bait I feel compelled to beg you not to give up on anybody in this country or general human society out of hand.

 

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Is this beginning to become a trend?  Let's hope not.

 

Quote

TOKYO (AP) — Japan’s public broadcaster mistakenly sent an alert warning citizens of a North Korean missile launch and urging them to seek immediate shelter, then retracted it minutes later, days after a similar error in Hawaii.

https://talkingpointsmemo.com/world-news/japan-mistaken-north-korean-missile-alert?utm_content=bufferbd4c4&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

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13 hours ago, dmc515 said:

Nah man.  Tired of this bullshit.  Trump is dominating Congress?  It's a ridiculous notion.  The GOP Congress is enabling Trump to juice as much as they can out of him.  Let's be clear on who is leading whom.  Trump may not even understand the term legislative agenda.  He certainly can't be bothered with the intricacies of parliamentary procedure inherent in the House.  His naked deference is on display every time he has those bipartisan "meetings" wherein leadership is obligated to clarify the president's position.  It's pathetic - and explains the direction of causality:  GOP members prop up a president for their own means, not the other way around.

?

I don’t think we’re disagreeing with one another, just looking at this from different perspectives. I agree that Trump doesn’t care about, or even really understand, the legislative process. But I wasn’t talking about that, at least not directly. I was talking about the politics of power. And that’s what matters to Trump. Trump probably couldn’t care less about most pieces of legislation, outside of a few that might upset his base. But he does care about loyalty, and that specifically, people are loyal to him. And Republicans, well aware of this, are creating a symbiotic relationship in which they feed into that in exchange for him signing legislation that they want codified into law. But what they aren’t factoring in is that when push comes to shove, the base will back Trump. He owns their party now, dominating it, and that’s been his main goal, not specific policy. And that’s my point. He’s giving them what they want in exchange for increasing his control over the party. Now, that in and of itself doesn’t mean a lot in normal times, but I’m left wondering if he’s hoping to change what’s considered normal. And if we reach that point, if we haven’t already, and he owns them in exchange for their legislation, what then?

A wise man once warned us that “those who foolishly sought power by riding the back of the tiger ended up inside."

Trump is the tiger, and Congressional Republicans are the fools. 

Quote

Also, there's a lot of talk about Orwell in the past few pages.  Orwell sucks.  Give me Brave New World, Wanting Seed, or any Vonnegut novel over Animal Farm and 1984, both of which are rather intellectually bereft.  This is a rather esoteric complaint, but it comes from one of my favorite professors, that's since deceased, I used to drink good scotch with.  He taught an entire undergrad class on dystopian literature, and he wholly avoided Orwell - because Orwell's observations were quaint and simplistic.  

Funny that you mention that. I’m currently reading 1984, and while I’ll agree that it’s overrated as a piece of literature, you have to admit that it predicted a lot of things correctly.

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50 minutes ago, Pony Queen Jace said:

Is cool man! It's ok! You been trying, a lot of people have.

Isn't that the whole point of his posts, though? People have kept trying and trying, for many incarnations of this thread.

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14 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Funny that you mention that. I’m currently reading 1984, and while I’ll agree that it’s overrated as a piece of literature, you have to admit that it predicted a lot of things correctly.

I think the age of Trump is the first time I'd agree with that. Two years ago, I'd have said Brave New World was far more prescient about how the future would/could go.

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2 hours ago, Pony Queen Jace said:

Well guys, I made an honest attempt. It's the only thing I could do, really. I tried folks. 

Sorry I let you all down, if I was better then maybe I could have made a connection and thereby a difference.

But hey, we can't always get through and that's ok! Some people aren't ready, and I believe that only a miniscule fraction of people CAN'T get there.

I know it's tacky as fuck, but Dr. King was always about trying to make that connection. To form that bridge no matter what efforts it took.

It's not alright that some people won't step into the 21st century and act in basic good faith, it absolutely isn't.

But the only thing worse would be to throw up our hands and give up the fight.

That's the only way they win, when we stop having love in our hearts that is open to everyone. Even the worst among us are worthy of some compassion and effort, especially if it's hard to give it to them.

Just my opinion of course.

Our Humble Narrator did make a valiant attempt though. And IIRC, Dr. King said that you have to try to appeal to one’s morality and/or shame, and if that fails, don’t waste anymore of your time on the individual in question. You know what to do next, Alex.

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26 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

But what they aren’t factoring in is that when push comes to shove, the base will back Trump. He owns their party now, dominating it, and that’s been his main goal, not specific policy. And that’s my point. He’s giving them what they want in exchange for increasing his control over the party.

I'd agree with this too.

 

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I saw a lot of threads yesterday on the hypocrisy of Republicans saying that they're giving thanks to MLK or remembering a quote when they purposely did fairly horrible things against MLK's legacy, and the thing to remember is that a lot of the Trump supporters are upset about the hypocrisy too - because they like Trump simply not even bothering to give that lip service and talk about the shitholes.

That's what they've wanted. That's what they always have wanted.

And that's what the Republican party is turning into - a far more openly racist, sexist group of people who aren't even bothering with dogwhistles.

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Trump is the Republican id let loose, that is why whatever meager resistance they intially showed has faded away. The more they think he isn’t suffering any consequences, the more emboldened they will become. Charlottlesville elicited some minor chiding, some even mentioned the president by name rather than abstactly musing on how “one” should not treat neo Nazis; weak sauce though it was, it was the most Republicans went against Trump. If something similar to Cville happened today and Trump responded the same, we would not even see the finger wagging we saw then.

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11 hours ago, dmc515 said:

Got no problem with this, but Trudeau's comments on Castro aren't going away.  They were ill advised, amateurish, and something no relevant party in this hemisphere will forget anytime soon.

I know this is the US Politics thread, and I guess this is legit because it's about US reaction, but I can't let that by without actually quoting his words. Castro was a remarkable leader, and beloved by many, though not all, of course. And Cuba was one of those shitholes Trump talks about, because it had US supported dictators and a long history of intervention, through the power of money and actual intervention after the Platt Amendment put the US military in the country. The country's reliance on sugar cane meant there was a wealthy class and some middle class, but the majority of the population, largely black, impoverished and uneducated, starved in the countryside, since the only work available was 3 or 4 months in the cane fields and nothing else the rest of the year. Not to mention the fact casinos and whorehouses operated to amuse white people. Did you know the last dictator, Batista, couldn't even enter the luxury resorts because he was a mulatto?

Anyway, what sticks in the craw of Americans most? The fact that Castro was in fact the longest serving president of Cuba, that Cubans did not rise up and depose him like they had with previous dictators? My goodness, so many Cuban refugees in the US and the US couldn't even destroy the Castro regime with a Cuban militia. Or the fact that Trudeau said Castro loved Cuba, and Cubans loved him back? Or was it the fact that he was honoured to meet Castro and his family? The fact Pierre Trudeau had a friendship with Castro? Or the fact Trudeau didn't tell the Cuban people, who Canadians have had a long and friendly relationship with, on Castro's death that their leader was a POS? 

eta: forgot the link from the NYT about the uproar over Trudeau's comments https://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/26/world/americas/justin-trudeau-fidel-castro.html?_r=0

Quote

“Fidel Castro was a larger than life leader who served his people for almost half a century,” Mr. Trudeau said in the statement, which was issued while he attended a summit meeting in Madagascar. He described Mr. Castro, who ruled as a Communist autocrat for almost 50 years, as “Cuba’s longest serving President.”

“While a controversial figure, both Mr. Castro’s supporters and detractors recognized his tremendous dedication and love for the Cuban people who had a deep and lasting affection for ‘el Comandante,’” Mr. Trudeau continued. He added that Mr. Castro was “a legendary revolutionary and orator” whose death had brought him “deep sorrow.”

“I know my father was very proud to call him a friend and I had the opportunity to meet Fidel when my father passed away,” Mr. Trudeau said. (His father, Pierre Trudeau, served as prime minister for over 15 years.) “It was also a real honour to meet his three sons and his brother President Raúl Castro during my recent visit to Cuba.”

 

 

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1 hour ago, Tywin et al. said:

Our Humble Narrator did make a valiant attempt though. And IIRC, Dr. King said that you have to try to appeal to one’s morality and/or shame, and if that fails, don’t waste anymore of your time on the individual in question. You know what to do next, Alex.

With all due respect, and as we are friends I hope you know I mean that, if I had been citing a quote I would have cited a quote. 

Dr. King was not a perfect man, he has as much right to have said something like you recall without that being what he's 'all about' as I said.

A little look into my personal life nobody asked for, but i give it because there is a reason I am being uncharacteristically outspoken in this thread at the moment.

Unlike the President of the United States of America, I don't gift books I haven't read.

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1 hour ago, Fez said:

I think the age of Trump is the first time I'd agree with that. Two years ago, I'd have said Brave New World was far more prescient about how the future would/could go.

Sadly I’ve never read Brave New World, though I know what it’s about and I’ve been meaning to add it to my reading queue. There’s just too much to get to.

 

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32 minutes ago, Fragile Bird said:

I know this is the US Politics thread, and I guess this is legit because it's about US reaction, but I can't let that by without actually quoting his words. Castro was a remarkable leader, and beloved by many, though not all, of course. And Cuba was one of those shitholes Trump talks about, because it had US supported dictators and a long history of intervention, through the power of money and actual intervention after the Platt Amendment put the US military in the country. The country's reliance on sugar cane meant there was a wealthy class and some middle class, but the majority of the population, largely black, impoverished and uneducated, starved in the countryside, since the only work available was 3 or 4 months in the cane fields and nothing else the rest of the year. Not to mention the fact casinos and whorehouses operated to amuse white people. Did you know the last dictator, Batista, couldn't even enter the luxury resorts because he was a mulatto?

Anyway, what sticks in the craw of Americans most? The fact that Castro was in fact the longest serving president of Cuba, that Cubans did not rise up and depose him like they had with previous dictators? My goodness, so many Cuban refugees in the US and the US couldn't even destroy the Castro regime with a Cuban militia. Or the fact that Trudeau said Castro loved Cuba, and Cubans loved him back? Or was it the fact that he was honoured to meet Castro and his family? The fact Pierre Trudeau had a friendship with Castro? Or the fact Trudeau didn't tell the Cuban people, who Canadians have had a long and friendly relationship with, on Castro's death that their leader was a POS? 

 

 

That's basically what I posted on the previous page.  To which one MUST add, if one is speaking of the authentic Cuba and not that cartoon constructed by US politicos of all stripes and allegiences: Cuba is filled with the kindest, most compassionate and generous people of any nation in which I have spent extensive time -- and by far beyond the US in these practices.  It is without doubt the most child friendly nation.  There was a physically challenged elderly, not wealthy at all, woman in our group this month, who loves music and loves dancing.  At every musical event -- and there were at least three every day -- young, very presentable Cuban guys, who never met S, and would never see her again, could see how much she wanted to dance, and by golly they danced with her, exhibiting in every way that they were enjoying themselves as much as S.  these sorts of things DO NOT HAPPEN in countries led by 100% a$$holes, such as, o say, the US.*

It is also the only nation I can think of that openly speaks of having made errors -- such as having been so antagonistic toward LBGTQ people and others -- and who, when admitting such errors, changing rapidly.  Racism is part of that as well, all of which were part of Fidel's theories of unification of Cuba as opposed to splintering it.  But (much) later, under the leadership and activism of several women in Cuba's government, they were brought to understanding that opening the culture, government to those whom they thought were antithetical to unity was what was really necessary for unity.  This was the best strategy to not have people think of themselves first as "African Cubans," gay Cubans, female Cubans, etc. -- in other words to actively counteract what has happened in the US where everyone identifies with identity, so to speak, identities that don't start as "American" -- but as Cuban American, Asian American, etc.

Also -- just look at how differently things operated in Cuba when Hurricane creamed the central region, and Puerto Rico, which still has no electricity, aid or even food, and people are dying in large numbers.  In Cuba power was restored within days everywhere where it had been lost.  People who have lost their homes received almost immediately materials to begin rebuilding.  O, and ya -- Puerto Ricans are USians, but clearly are classified in D.C. by these $hithole rethugs as you know what.

-----------------

* Have just returned from 2 weeks driving all over la tierra de Benny (Moré) -- Central Cuba and experiencing music / dance / religious / art in communities there, everywhere.  This far, far from my first extended visit to Cuba, which took place right after the Berlin Wall went down.

 

 

 

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