Jaime broke an oath when he killed Aerys

[Davjos]

I might be responding prematurely but I love this thread about my favourite character and am too impatient to read every single post before replying. 

@LynnS

As  lord Varys has also explained there is little to no evidence for the KG being in service to 'the Crown' as the Brits would say and not to the King. Jaime and Barristan's discussion during Aerys' II rape the day before Rhaella (IIRC) leaves for Dragonstone (and probably Dany'e conception) shows rather clearly that although the vows of the KG may extend to the royal Familie they are sworn to protect the King first. 

 

Also your comparisons with Midieval Europe/UK is not a fair one to make. The Church was incredibly more powerful than the Church of Seven are. The Church could declare you outside of the law, they have the authority to allow divorce and more important the Kings claimed they're right to rule was derivative of God(i.e the Church). Many a war has been fought over wether or not the pope or the king had the last word on God's will. Also in the late Middle Ages the UK became the head of the Anglosakson church. Therefore they were anointed by the church just to ensure absolute sovereignty. To me the annointment by the church of the Westerosi Kings is far more reminiscent of the coronation of Napoleon I, who was crowned emperor by a Pope. They need to be crowned by a seemingly independent power, since all power in Westeros is derived of the King now. In the 7K the King appoints the High Septon, the King has the authority to dissolve marriages, etc. 

 

@Lord Varys

I strongly doubt the possibility of a prospected KG knight to reject the offer to become a KG. Even if such a thing would be possible, would a 15/16 y.o. have the balls to refuse the king, how mad he may be. Maybe if Tywin had been at HH, as the 3rd/2nd most powerful person in the Kingdom, Jaime would have had the balls to refuse. However this would have probably lead to war, and Tywin wouldn't refuse until he was bound to the Baratheon, Stark, Arryn, Tully block. But with Tywin absent, Jaime had no choice but to become a KG

[LynnS]

30 minutes ago, Ethelarion said:

As  lord Varys has also explained there is little to no evidence for the KG being in service to 'the Crown' as the Brits would say and not to the King. Jaime and Barristan's discussion during Aerys' II rape the day before Rhaella (IIRC) leaves for Dragonstone (and probably Dany'e conception) shows rather clearly that although the vows of the KG may extend to the royal Familie they are sworn to protect the King first. 

The High Sparrow is turning all that on it's head now and he's calling for all anointed knights to join the Faith Militant.  As for Jaime breaking his oath;  I'd say he broke one oath and upheld another.  The question as always was whether he was right to do so.  I don't think anyone would argue that he should have taken no action to prevent it at all.  I'm not sure that Jaime was in a position to disable or restrain Aerys under the circumstances or that anyone else would have listened to him or given him any authority over the King.

[Varysblackfyre321]

22 hours ago, LynnS said:

What do you think Barristan Selmy or Arthur Dayne would have done in Jaime's position?   Is the main training of  knight to be as violent and efficient in slaughter as possible?  The KG have fallen low indeed.

Yeah I kinda thinking you're missing the poster's point(at least how I read it). Kings cannot have their personal bodyguards thinking they've a right to evaluate whether or not he should allow the king to do action x because the bodyguard thinks "it hurts the realm" or can pick and choose what orders to follow because they don't approve of. 

I mean what would be the point of them if they'd be allowed to do that? 

[zandru]

16 minutes ago, LynnS said:

The High Sparrow is turning all that on it's head now and he's calling for all anointed knights to join the Faith Militant.

But this is nearly 20 years AFTER "Robert's Rebellion" when the event we've been discussing took place. There was no "high sparrow" nor "faith militant" back in Aerys II's time. Remember, dowager Queen Cersei reinstated the military and judicial branches of the faith for some petty short term concern during the reign of Mad King Joffrey.

[zandru]

10 hours ago, snow is the man said:

What I never understood was why jaime never told anyone.

Jaime's story was that Ned Stark gave him a mean look. Yeah, I know it sounds kind of lame. Perhaps we'll learn more in future, when Daenerys interrogates Jaime about why he killed her father. (No spoiler; just wishful thinking on my part.)

[LynnS]

6 minutes ago, zandru said:

But this is nearly 20 years AFTER "Robert's Rebellion" when the event we've been discussing took place. There was no "high sparrow" nor "faith militant" back in Aerys II's time. Remember, dowager Queen Cersei reinstated the military and judicial branches of the faith for some petty short term concern during the reign of Mad King Joffrey.

yes, yes.  But Jaime chooses to act on his vow as an anointed knight; to protect the defenseless over his vow to protect the king.  So kiss him or curse him.

[Varysblackfyre321]

9 minutes ago, zandru said:

Jaime's story was that Ned Stark gave him a mean look. Yeah, I know it sounds kind of lame. Perhaps we'll learn more in future, when Daenerys interrogates Jaime about why he killed her father. (No spoiler; just wishful thinking on my part.)

Ego?

What right does wolf judge a lion?

He shouldn't have to explain himself to anyone, nor will he try.

And at the moment Ned sees him Jamie just wants to find Cersi fuck her and go to sleep because this point he's surely extremely emotionally exhausted and doesn't have the patience to explain his story to a wolf get.

[zandru]

10 minutes ago, LynnS said:

So kiss him or curse him.

Lips that have touched Cersei's will never touch mine. That said, Jaime has in the last few books started to shake of Cersei's malignant influence. The way she turned on him after he lost his hand had to be shattering. That, plus Brienne's idealism and strength of character, which nearly overrode her unfeminine "ugliness."

Quote

What do you think Barristan Selmy or Arthur Dayne would have done in Jaime's position? 

Barristan Selmy, for sure, would have stood valiantly by while Aerys ordered the firebombing of King's Landing. Perhaps he would have tried to shelter his King when the fires reached the Red Keep. Barristan the Not-so-Old would have burned to death, secure in the knowledge that he was Doing His Duty. Don't know much about Arthur Dayne; all I've seen so far in the text is other men going on about how wonderful he was. I hope we get an answer to why the "Sword of the Morning" was so eager to kill the brother who had come to rescue his sister at the sadly misnamed "Tower of Joy."

[Ponzi Scheme]

Yes he did.  He should have taken his king out of the city and escaped to the Free Cities.  Jaime could have stopped the wildfire plan and still save his king.  Failing that, Jaime should have asked for a trial by combat and championed Aerys.  He might have failed but he was obligated to do so.  His loyalty belonged to Aerys and whatever else the man might have done, Jaime should have done his best to save the man from the rebels.

[Knight Of Winter]

Oh, yeah, and what's somehow forgotten is the fact that by obeying Aerys Jaime would also be an oathbreaker. When he took his knighty vows, Jaime swore to:

In the name of the Warrior I charge you to be brave. In the name of the Father I charge you to be just [allowing KL to perish is not just]. In the name of the Mother I charge you to defend the young and innocent [from monsters such as Aerys. In the name of the Maid I charge you to protect all women [including those in KL]...
 

Matter of conflicting oaths, really. Jaime was right to jape how they made him swear vow after vow, and sooner or later he was bound to break one or the other. And while most of his society believes he should have given priority to his KG's vows, I don't think that anyone here can fault him for making a different choice (at a great personal cost - his reputation plummeted) and preferring to kill the madman who was planning to kill thousands of people.

[Lord Varys]

2 hours ago, Ethelarion said:

 

I strongly doubt the possibility of a prospected KG knight to reject the offer to become a KG. Even if such a thing would be possible, would a 15/16 y.o. have the balls to refuse the king, how mad he may be. Maybe if Tywin had been at HH, as the 3rd/2nd most powerful person in the Kingdom, Jaime would have had the balls to refuse. However this would have probably lead to war, and Tywin wouldn't refuse until he was bound to the Baratheon, Stark, Arryn, Tully block. But with Tywin absent, Jaime had no choice but to become a KG

What we know about the KG is that you have to swear the vow voluntarily. Nobody can make you. Now, there could certainly be a certain pressure, especially if your parents saw the KG as a great chance to advance the family, but there is actually little to no reason to assume that any king ever pressured anyone to join the KG. That would be madness, considering the duties of the Kingsguard...

Tywin could no longer object after Jaime had volunteered and Aerys accepted him but Jaime himself certainly could have refused to join the KG at Harrenhal. It wouldn't have looked all that good - and it may have caused Aerys to freak out - but the king could really not force him.

Harrenhal wasn't even really necessary for Jaime to find out what Aerys was. His father was the Hand. He would have known. In fact, he likely saw the king when he visited KL and got persuaded to join the KG by Cersei. He wouldn't have drunken tea with Aerys privately, but he would have seen him at court. And he would have talked with Tywin, Tywin's men, and the servants and grooms in the Red Keep. Stories about the Mad King's madness would have been abundant in those circles.

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

As for Jaime breaking his oath;  I'd say he broke one oath and upheld another.  The question as always was whether he was right to do so.  I don't think anyone would argue that he should have taken no action to prevent it at all.  I'm not sure that Jaime was in a position to disable or restrain Aerys under the circumstances or that anyone else would have listened to him or given him any authority over the King.

Considering that Jaime did nothing to warn the Kingslanders about the bombs some of them are still sitting on, he didn't really fulfill any vow. Only if the wildfire had all been neutralized had he truly saved the people and their city.

It is pretty clear that Jaime could have overpowered both Rossart and Aerys in any number of ways. He is a very strong man, and neither of these men was with others who could have protected them when he killed them.

Jaime chose to murder both those men, and he doesn't feel any regret about that. Any person trying to do the right thing wouldn't have killed those people. He would have found other ways to do so. If I murder you and later claim I did so because this was the only way to prevent you from executing a large crime then I have actually to prove that this is the case.

We have the facts in Jaime's case. He didn't have to kill Aerys to prevent the city from burning. He may not even have had to kill Rossart to prevent it (he could have knocked him out, too). That is why this whole thing is murder, not self-defense or defense of a third person.

And Jaime actually never claims that he killed Aerys to save innocent people. That is something that people read into his actions. But he never ever says or thinks that. It is clear that wildfire plan caused Jaime to resent Aerys even more, causing him to murder the man. But there is no hint that he acted out of empathy for the poor Kingslanders or because the vow to protect the innocents was interfering with the vow to protect and obey the king. If Jaime felt empathy for anyone it was most likely his treasonous daddy. He clearly didn't want to kill Tywin or see him burn - or the other Westermen he had known since birth.

[Knight Of Winter]

32 minutes ago, Ponzi Scheme said:

Yes he did.  He should have taken his king out of the city and escaped to the Free Cities.  Jaime could have stopped the wildfire plan and still save his king.  Failing that, Jaime should have asked for a trial by combat and championed Aerys.  He might have failed but he was obligated to do so.  His loyalty belonged to Aerys and whatever else the man might have done, Jaime should have done his best to save the man from the rebels.

You can't have it both ways. If you argue that Jaime could and should have stopped the wildfire plot, you're saying that Jaime should have listened to his own moral judgement instead of vows, vows which tell him to obey king's commands (and king's command was: help with the wildfire plot). However, you also argue that Jaime should have tried to save or champion Aerys, a guy whom Jaime (rightfully) considers to be an omnicidal madman. Ergo, he should have disregarded his own judgement and uphold his vows - an opposite view.

So Jaime either:

a ) disregards his vows and listens to his moral judgement. He prevent wildfire plot and does what he wants with Aerys. OR
b ) disregards his moral judgement and honours his oath to Aerys. He unconditionally protects Aerys and listens to his every command without question (including the one to help with the wildfire plot)

[The Sunland Lord]

8 hours ago, Ethelarion said:

 

I strongly doubt the possibility of a prospected KG knight to reject the offer to become a KG. Even if such a thing would be possible, would a 15/16 y.o. have the balls to refuse the king, how mad he may be. Maybe if Tywin had been at HH, as the 3rd/2nd most powerful person in the Kingdom, Jaime would have had the balls to refuse. However this would have probably lead to war, and Tywin wouldn't refuse until he was bound to the Baratheon, Stark, Arryn, Tully block. But with Tywin absent, Jaime had no choice but to become a KG

Taking the white is a life-changing decision, and not in the most pleasant way. I think that the consequences of refusing might not be that harsh-while the consequences of accepting it are certainly a great burden, and they last for an entire life. 

Rejecting is pretty much worth it.

[snow is the man]

9 hours ago, zandru said:

Jaime's story was that Ned Stark gave him a mean look. Yeah, I know it sounds kind of lame. Perhaps we'll learn more in future, when Daenerys interrogates Jaime about why he killed her father. (No spoiler; just wishful thinking on my part.)

yes but why not other people. I don't know if he told anyone in the book besides brienne.

[snow is the man]

18 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

Well all those lords swore oaths of fealty and their purpose was to serve their lands in the name of the king. Oh I agree he should've told. Another reason I think it's just a plot convenience. If Jaimie had just said, hey he was going to burn them all. There's all the wildfire, everyone would've just gone "Oh, good job. You're savior of the city now."

well some would have still shunned him but they would have been seen as the as*holes. I also think it would have made house lannister more liked and respected. as it is now house lannister spent that war either doing nothing,breaking their oaths,sacking a city that let them through,and butchering royal children and raping princess's. Though tywin wanted it done more clean and not have the princess raped he still ordered children to be butchered.

[the trees have eyes]

This is kind of a strange thread. 

Aerys had planted wildfire caches in KL and planned to ignite them and burn the city and kill a good part of it's inhabitants.  Jaime's trigger moment was when Aerys ordered Rossart to start the burning and Jaime killed Rossart then Aerys and then later tracked down and killed the other two leading pyromancers who were in cahoots on the plot.

He may well have come to despise Aerys for his actions and it seems that conclusion is a fair one.  The idea that an oath of loyalty prevents him from doing anything but obey orders given to him is one that has long been rejected n our society with the notion of war crimes - being ordered to kill civilians or conduct rape or torture does not absolve you from personal responsibility if you follow those orders.  The personal consequences of disobeying those orders are of course usually drastic leading to moral quandries.  Jaime made the right decision though the culture, I would say cult, of honour in Westeros makes him a pariah for it.  One of the central themes of GRRM's story is that doing the morally right thing often requires ignoring an oath or a custom, largely because the oath or custom is used (or abused) to require the person to do morally questionable things.  Morality versus Duty is a fairly easy one for the reader to choose between and I choose Jaime here.

For those who say that his decision to kill Aerys was 1) part personal desire after seeing how despicable Aerys was, 2) part loyalty to his family and betrayal of his oath out of calculation and pure expedience and 3) nothing at all to do with saving KL I would agree to an extent with the first charge, not with the second - he gave up Casterly Rock quickly enough for Cersei and wanted Rhaegar to take him to the Trident so he could prove his loyalty and this shortly before the sack - and not at all with the third - this is someone who wanted to step in when Aerys was raping his wife and dreamed of being a hero and who hunted down and killed the other pyromancers after Aerys was dead.

Yes he broke his oath but he was right to when Aerys broke the compact with his people that he would provide security and stability (eh, I sould like Theresa May ) in trying to burn the city and all it's inhabitants as a final F**K You to the rebels.

[Angel Eyes]

On 1/13/2018 at 8:21 PM, The Sunland Lord said:

Jaime took an oath and he broke it. 

He should have protected his king and do as he was commanded.

Aerys told Jaime to deal with the rebels who took arms against their liege.

Instead, Jaime Lannister betrays his king and kills him. 

I think that Jaime should've put aside all he was and knew before he had the great and rare honour of becoming a member of the Kingsguard.

But, he decided that this oath didn't matter when it suited him. 

What's your opinion? 

 

That he did. But he held the oath to defend the innocent by preventing the destruction of the city. Doesn't Jaime talk about this, that to keep one oath is to break another?

[The Sunland Lord]

17 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

That he did. But he held the oath to defend the innocent by preventing the destruction of the city. Doesn't Jaime talk about this, that to keep one oath is to break another?

The Kinsguard doesn't protect the innocent. Otherwise, it would be called Innocentsguard, or Realmsguard.

[Sensenmenn]

2 hours ago, The Sunland Lord said:

The Kinsguard doesn't protect the innocent. Otherwise, it would be called Innocentsguard, or Realmsguard.

No but a knight does so he chose that vow over the kings gard vow and was absolutely right to. 

[The Sunland Lord]

15 minutes ago, Sensenmenn said:

No but a knight does so he chose that vow over the kings gard vow and was absolutely right to. 

That's not how things go. If you join the Kingsguard, you protect the king. 

Otherwise, why join? He could've stayed a knight and protect the innocent, if that's what he wanted.