Jaime broke an oath when he killed Aerys

[Sensenmenn]

8 minutes ago, The Sunland Lord said:

That's not how things go. If you join the Kingsguard, you protect the king. 

Otherwise, why join? He could've stayed a knight and protect the innocent, if that's what he wanted. 

 

 

He did and would have because usually the king isn't trying to kill a city full of people so he chose one vow over the other. 

[Lord Varys]

28 minutes ago, The Sunland Lord said:

That's not how things go. If you join the Kingsguard, you protect the king. 

Otherwise, why join? He could've stayed a knight and protect the innocent, if that's what he wanted. 

That is the key there. The Kingsguard is an elite order of knights. You don't join it if you want to keep your free will. You pledge yourself utterly and completely to your king, and you know the consequences if you break those vows. If you want to follow other knightly ideals - ideals that do not fit well with protecting and obeying the king - then you should simply not join the Kingsguard. Nobody forces you to do so.

[The Sunland Lord]

7 minutes ago, Sensenmenn said:

He did and would have because usually the king isn't trying to kill a city full of people so he chose one vow over the other. 

I don't think that the Kingsguard is supposed to usually defend the king, when it suits them.  

[Sensenmenn]

1 minute ago, Lord Varys said:

That is the key there. The Kingsguard is an elite order of knights. You don't join it if you want to keep your free will. You pledge you utterly and completely to your king, and you know the consequences if you break those vows. If you want to follow other knightly ideals - ideals that do not fit will with protecting and obeying the king - then you should simply not join the Kingsguard. Nobody forces you to do so.

So if you were in Jaimes place you would let Aerys kill an entire city of people? 

[Lord Varys]

10 minutes ago, Sensenmenn said:

So if you were in Jaimes place you would let Aerys kill an entire city of people? 

I'd most likely have told Rhaegar and others about this whole wildfire plan a long time ago, doing something real to prevent it.

But if I had just been in his shoes during the Sack, I'd have only killed Rossart if I had do - I'd have preferred to knock him out and imprison him somewhere. Aerys I'd have kept distracted until daddy's men came bursting in to do the job for me. Then I'd have simply stood aside, like Pilate did. Or I'd have arrested or knocked out Aerys had he suspected that Rossart was not going to be able to implement the wildfire plan and was trying to correct that by sending somebody else.

I've laid around repeatedly that Jaime was not, in fact, in a moral dilemma where murder was necessary or justified. He paints it that way but if you look at actual moral dilemmas then you usually don't get a guy who comes bursting in a room covered in blood and basically announces to a defenseless lunatic that he is going to kill him now. That is not a moral dilemma.

It would be a moral dilemma if Aerys himself had been at a place where he could personally ignite the wildfire - and was about to do that when Jaime was killing him. But that wasn't the case.

[kissdbyfire]

On 13/01/2018 at 10:21 PM, The Sunland Lord said:

Jaime took an oath and he broke it. 

He should have protected his king and do as he was commanded.

Aerys told Jaime to deal with the rebels who took arms against their liege.

Instead, Jaime Lannister betrays his king and kills him. 

I think that Jaime should've put aside all he was and knew before he had the great and rare honour of becoming a member of the Kingsguard.

But, he decided that this oath didn't matter when it suited him. 

What's your opinion? 

 

Jaime did what had to be done. Bad timing, but that's all I'm putting on him. If only his ever so dutiful sworn brothers had stuck to honour instead of duty and blind obedience to vows, the problem would have been dealt with much sooner. 

[Lollygag]

24 minutes ago, The Sunland Lord said:

That's not how things go. If you join the Kingsguard, you protect the king. 

Otherwise, why join? He could've stayed a knight and protect the innocent, if that's what he wanted. 

 

 

Dictators would you.

Jaime was a kid who wasn't given an informed choice so you can't place the burden of responsibility on his choice. It was all a trick and a political ploy. Seriously, who joins the KG expecting the possibility that they are going to be complicit in mass genocide against the innocent?

As myself and others have said, oaths are two way things and those soliciting the oath have a responsibility to accurately represent the situation that swearer is actually swearing to. Jaime swore to the King whose title is Protector of the Realm, a title to which Aerys' didn't hold himself. What Aerys tried to do wasn't even conceivable and was completely unprecedented.

Anything else is expecting people to obey oaths which were basically solicited via lies and deception. In my real life experience, a promise made to those who've lied to you means you are no longer obliged to keep that promise.

ASOS Jaime VI

 

King Aerys made a great show of Jaime's investiture. He said his vows before the king's pavilion, kneeling on the green grass in white armor while half the realm looked on. When Ser Gerold Hightower raised him up and put the white cloak about his shoulders, a roar went up that Jaime still remembered, all these years later. But that very night Aerys had turned sour, declaring that he had no need of seven Kingsguard here at Harrenhal. Jaime was commanded to return to King's Landing to guard the queen and little Prince Viserys, who'd remained behind. Even when the White Bull offered to take that duty himself, so Jaime might compete in Lord Whent's tourney, Aerys had refused. "He'll win no glory here," the king had said. "He's mine now, not Tywin's. He'll serve as I see fit. I am the king. I rule, and he'll obey."

 

That was the first time that Jaime understood. It was not his skill with sword and lance that had won him his white cloak, nor any feats of valor he'd performed against the Kingswood Brotherhood. Aerys had chosen him to spite his father, to rob Lord Tywin of his heir.

[The Sunland Lord]

 

15 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

Dictators would you.

Not true. 

 

[Lollygag]

7 minutes ago, The Sunland Lord said:

Not true.

 

On 1/14/2018 at 4:48 PM, Trigger Warning said:

I don't really understand the OP, obviously Jaime broke his oath, he even says one oath is basically always conflicting with another. Are we saying that breaking an oath is inherently morally wrong? Cough cough... 

"I swear to God this sacred oath that to the Leader of the German Empire and people, Adolf Hitler, supreme commander of the armed forces, I shall render unconditional obedience and that as a brave soldier I shall at all times be prepared to give my life for this oath."
 

 

1 hour ago, The Sunland Lord said:

I don't think that the Kingsguard is supposed to usually defend the king, when it suits them.  

As @Trigger Warning has already demonstrated, an absolutist position on keeping oaths and truly blind loyalty leads to, well, I hope I don't have to tell you how that turned out.

 

[Knight Of Winter]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

But if I had just been in his shoes during the Sack, I'd have only killed Rossart if I had do - I'd have preferred to knock him out and imprison him somewhere. Aerys I'd have kept distracted until daddy's men came bursting in to do the job for me. Then I'd have simply stood aside, like Pilate did. Or I'd have arrested or knocked out Aerys had he suspected that Rossart was not going to be able to implement the wildfire plan and was trying to correct that by sending somebody else.

That's quite a lot of oathbreaking for someone sworn to defend and protect the king at all costs (standing aside or even knocking out the king). Just recently you affirmed that KG's basically have no free will, and yet your hypothetical Jaime shows quite a lot of it in your example.

[the trees have eyes]

14 hours ago, The Sunland Lord said:

I don't think that the Kingsguard is supposed to usually defend the king, when it suits them.  

 

14 hours ago, Sensenmenn said:

So if you were in Jaimes place you would let Aerys kill an entire city of people? 

It really is this simple.  Jaime knows he is sujpposed to protect the king but when the king goes mad and tries to murder all his subjects what are those sworn to him to do?  It would be interesting to see what Hightower would have done in Jaime's place.  He was after all big on the importance of loyatly and the responsibilities of wearing the white cloak but a KG is not a robot or a software programme executing whatever command the King taps out and hits return on.  I think even Hightower would have apprehended Aerys though whether he would have killed him is another matter.

The idea that a KG is a glorified slave who leaves his morality, even his humanity, behind when he swears the oath is false.  He is still a man and will think and feel like other men and, however you dress things up with oaths and duty everyone has a breaking point when the orders are too monstrous.  Jaime reached his with the plan to incinerate KL.

13 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Dictators would you.

Jaime was a kid who wasn't given an informed choice so you can't place the burden of responsibility on his choice. It was all a trick and a political ploy. Seriously, who joins the KG expecting the possibility that they are going to be complicit in mass genocide against the innocent?

As myself and others have said, oaths are two way things and those soliciting the oath have a responsibility to accurately represent the situation that swearer is actually swearing to. Jaime swore to the King whose title is Protector of the Realm, a title to which Aerys' didn't hold himself. What Aerys tried to do wasn't even conceivable and was completely unprecedented.

Anything else is expecting people to obey oaths which were basically solicited via lies and deception. In my real life experience, a promise made to those who've lied to you means you are no longer obliged to keep that promise.

ASOS Jaime VI

 

King Aerys made a great show of Jaime's investiture. He said his vows before the king's pavilion, kneeling on the green grass in white armor while half the realm looked on. When Ser Gerold Hightower raised him up and put the white cloak about his shoulders, a roar went up that Jaime still remembered, all these years later. But that very night Aerys had turned sour, declaring that he had no need of seven Kingsguard here at Harrenhal. Jaime was commanded to return to King's Landing to guard the queen and little Prince Viserys, who'd remained behind. Even when the White Bull offered to take that duty himself, so Jaime might compete in Lord Whent's tourney, Aerys had refused. "He'll win no glory here," the king had said. "He's mine now, not Tywin's. He'll serve as I see fit. I am the king. I rule, and he'll obey."

 

That was the first time that Jaime understood. It was not his skill with sword and lance that had won him his white cloak, nor any feats of valor he'd performed against the Kingswood Brotherhood. Aerys had chosen him to spite his father, to rob Lord Tywin of his heir.

Good post.  When Catelyn takes Brienne into her service she promises that she will not require Brienne to do anything dishonourbale in her service:

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Catelyn V

The tall girl knelt awkwardly, unsheathed Renly's longsword, and laid it at her feet. "Then I am yours, my lady. Your liege man, or . . . whatever you would have me be. I will shield your back and keep your counsel and give my life for yours, if need be. I swear it by the old gods and the new."

"And I vow that you shall always have a place by my hearth and meat and mead at my table, and pledge to ask no service of you that might bring you into dishonor. I swear it by the old gods and the new. Arise." As she clasped the other woman's hands between her own, Catelyn could not help but smile.

The KG give up an enormous amount when they take the oath - the right to marry or hold lands or inherit anything - they live in small lodgings in White Sword Tower in The Red Keep and they are permanently guarding the King.  What do they get out of this arrangement except prestige and honour?  And what are they left with if their honour is compormised and their prestige becomes no more than that of Ramsay's boys or the Bloody Mummers? 

They are also knights with vows to protect the innocent and adhere to a code of conduct so the oath they give to Aerys, like the one Brienne gives to Catelyn, requires a reciprocal undertaking from the monarch, as Catelyn gave to Brienne.  This is the whole basis for homage and fealty in medieval Europe and why the king was top of a feudal pyramid not a God-King or absolute monarch.  Of course they are supposed to obey the king, of course they are not supposed to question his orders but they are not automotons and they know when an order conflicts with "what they signed up for" - see Aerys Oakheart protesting when Joffrey ordered him to hit Sansa and not hitting her as hard as Boros Blount or Meryn Trant. It's a small protest and defiance perhaps but it's key to understanding that there is a conflict between their oaths when the king is a bad apple and they are constantly evaluating (internally) how to act in difficult situations just like any other person.  Jaime has the mother of all situations to handle and what is more important is clear.

And, yes, dictators would love that guy!  "You joined my secret police and swore to obey me so fire that machine gun into that crowd, they are all rebels and traitors!  What do you mean there are women and children?  You swore an oath!"  As has been said the German Armed Forces found their honour required them to keep following Hitler - apart from a few brave souls who attempted to assassinate him - and there can't be a clearer example of why this approach of duty before morality is utterly wrong.

[The Sunland Lord]

1 hour ago, the trees have eyes said:

Good post.  When Catelyn takes Brienne into her service she promises that she will not require Brienne to do anything dishonourbale in her service:

Catelyn is no Queen. She can promise anyone that she will not ask this person to do something dishonorable. Those are private contracts, not kingly matters. 

1 hour ago, the trees have eyes said:

 

They are also knights with vows to protect the innocent and adhere to a code of conduct so the oath they give to Aerys, like the one Brienne gives to Catelyn, requires a reciprocal undertaking from the monarch, as Catelyn gave to Brienne. 

Knights are no more "servants" to the innocent when they join the Kingsguard.  

1 hour ago, the trees have eyes said:

And, yes, dictators would love that guy!  

Again, not true. By the way, if you are not offended by me in any way (I hope), I'd appreciate you wouldn't do the same. 

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

2 hours ago, The Sunland Lord said:

Knights are no more "servants" to the innocent when they join the Kingsguard.  

Is there a quote to back up this idea? I had always been under the impression that joining the KG just added more vows, not replacing vows. Obviously, the KG vows are seen by people as more important, but do they replace the knightly vows? Isn't this the reason for the internal confliction Jaime has to confront?

I'm reminded of Jaime saying this:

Quote

Jaime reached for the flagon to refill his cup. “So many vows … they make you swear and swear. Defend the king. Obey the king. Keep his secrets. Do his bidding. Your life for his. But obey your father. Love your sister. Protect the innocent. Defend the weak. Respect the gods. Obey the laws. It’s too much. No matter what you do, you’re forsaking one vow or the other.” He took a healthy swallow of wine and closed his eyes for an instant, leaning his head back against the patch of nitre on the wall. “I was the youngest man ever to wear the white cloak.”

 

[The Ned's Little Girl]

3 hours ago, The Sunland Lord said:

Catelyn is no Queen. She can promise anyone that she will not ask this person to do something dishonorable. Those are private contracts, not kingly matters.

Why does that matter? A vow (or promise) is not one thing when made by a Royal and another thing when made by a private citizen. A vow can be broken by anyone, no matter their status in society. A broken vow is just as broken when done by a King/Queen as by a private citizen.

[Lord Varys]

17 hours ago, Knight Of Winter said:

That's quite a lot of oathbreaking for someone sworn to defend and protect the king at all costs (standing aside or even knocking out the king). Just recently you affirmed that KG's basically have no free will, and yet your hypothetical Jaime shows quite a lot of it in your example.

I never said I considered it right of Jaime to allow Aerys to burn KL. What I say is that he wasn't in a moral dilemma when he murdered his king, nor was he forced to do that to prevent the burning of KL.

Nor is there any real hint that Jaime did what he did to save the denizens of KL. His daddy and his Westermen friends were in the city, too, butchering the people Jaime supposedly 'saved' by killing Rossart and Aerys.

The duty of a Kingsguard does not allow them free will. They are sworn to obey and they are not allow to do anything against the king they serve. As human beings they still have free will, of course, but they are not allowed to make of that if the things they do clash with their vows - or rather - if they do, they are universally seen as oath-breakers and traitors, and are treated as such.

[Lord Varys]

7 minutes ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

Why does that matter? A vow (or promise) is not one thing when made by a Royal and another thing when made by a private citizen. A vow can be broken by anyone, no matter their status in society. A broken vow is just as broken when done by a King/Queen as by a private citizen.

The difference is that there is no indication the king has to care about the private preferences or morals of a man who joins his Kingsguard. He doesn't even have to take men into his service the way Catelyn does. He is the king. All people of the Seven Kingdoms are technically subject to his will, whether they have sworn a vow to him or not.

But a sworn sword entering the service of this or that lord/lady or landed knight who isn't already subject to them is simply a completely different case. It is contract. But you don't have a contract with your king. He is your king and you are his subject.

[The Sunland Lord]

3 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Is there a quote to back up this idea? I had always been under the impression that joining the KG just added more vows, not replacing vows. Obviously, the KG vows are seen by people as more important, but do they replace the knightly vows? Isn't this the reason for the internal confliction Jaime has to confront?

If the confusion bothered him, he might've refused joining the Kingsguard. 

 

2 hours ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

Why does that matter? A vow (or promise) is not one thing when made by a Royal and another thing when made by a private citizen. A vow can be broken by anyone, no matter their status in society. A broken vow is just as broken when done by a King/Queen as by a private citizen.

I doubt Aerys had ever promised or sworn something to Jaime. By the way, I'm not saying that Aerys was doing "good for the realm", and the rebels had a just cause to overthrow him, but Jaime wasn't on their side.

Him and his father acted opportunistic all the time. 

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

6 minutes ago, The Sunland Lord said:

If the confusion bothered him, he might've refused joining the Kingsguard. 

 

I was only wondering if you had something from the text which hinted at or implied that KG vows replace knightly vows, rather than added more vows.

[The Sunland Lord]

23 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

 

I was only wondering if you had something from the text which hinted at or implied that KG vows replace knightly vows, rather than added more vows.

When did I say they replace them? I wrote that the new vows are "lex specialis" compared to the old (lex generalis). 

There are knights in the Night's Watch too. They are still knights, but only in name. The Watch comes first. Same here. The King comes first.

In other words, stay only a knight, and defend the innocents all you like. 

[Knight Of Winter]

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The duty of a Kingsguard does not allow them free will. They are sworn to obey and they are not allow to do anything against the king they serve. As human beings they still have free will, of course, but they are not allowed to make of that if the things they do clash with their vows - or rather - if they do, they are universally seen as oath-breakers and traitors, and are treated as such.

But you just proposed that. Namely, you suggested Jaime should have either distracted Aerys and stand aside when Lanniser soldiers came or knocked him down himself. Both go strongly against safety of the king Jaime is supposed to serve.

It's either:

1) Jaime is a proper KG without free will, obeying and protecting Aerys unconditionally. If Aerys issues a command (like: help burn the city), Jaime must obey. If Tywin send his men after Aerys, Jaime must protect him to death.

2) Jaime has free will, and he's free to stop Aerys's plan, fail to protect him, or kill him if he decides that's the best thing to do.

 

What you propose is some weird mixture of the two:
3) Jaime has arbitrary amount of free will. He can exercise it when deciding whether to help Aerys burn the city or protecting him when Lannister soldiers come; but he can't when deciding whether to kill Aerys personally.