John Suburbs Posted January 15, 2018 Share Posted January 15, 2018 On 1/13/2018 at 11:15 PM, Vaedys Targaryen said: Something that I would like to know is why do followers of R'hllor care about the Others in Westeros? The faith in R'hllor is practically nonexistent in Westeros and the Others are seemingly only coming from north of the Wall. The people who believe in R'hllor all live in Essos and why would they care about ice zombies from Westeros? Are we even certain that the Others are the enemy that Rhollor is pitted against? Bran looked into the heart of winter and saw something terrifying. So the question is: was that the enemy that is directing the Other's migration south, or is it the enemy that the Others are fleeing as well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Dacey Posted January 15, 2018 Share Posted January 15, 2018 1 hour ago, John Suburbs said: Are we even certain that the Others are the enemy that Rhollor is pitted against? We are not Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fattest Leech Posted January 15, 2018 Share Posted January 15, 2018 6 hours ago, John Suburbs said: Are we even certain that the Others are the enemy that Rhollor is pitted against? Nope. 6 hours ago, John Suburbs said: Bran looked into the heart of winter and saw something terrifying. So the question is: was that the enemy that is directing the Other's migration south, or is it the enemy that the Others are fleeing as well? Readers are gonna poo a bunch of frosty snowflakes when they realize what seems the "norm" for this series is about to be turned on end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varysblackfyre321 Posted January 15, 2018 Share Posted January 15, 2018 7 hours ago, Lady Dacey said: I'm truly flabbergasted when I see some readers simply state "well we know that R'hollor is real". Do we? Can we know? Just because the priests can make magical things happen, does it mean that R'hollor himself is the real deal? Or is it R'hollorism just an organized religion revolving around the hability of a few people to perform magic and a developed theological explanation of reality? We can't say for certain and we never will be able to. Where doesn't magic hail from? Is it possible to come to a conclusion? I don't think so, not even in Planetos. That's a fair point to make. I mean magic has been shown to be able done by plenty of people throughout the series with seemingly no connection to the R'hollor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Dacey Posted January 15, 2018 Share Posted January 15, 2018 On 14/01/2018 at 3:19 AM, Lucius Lovejoy said: true believers feel a responsibility to "save" everyone, and for everyone to please God so that God acts favorably toward us. You've been here indeed! I hadn't seen it. I have to point out that this passage I quoted above is not true about religionfor "true-believers" of all religions. While "spreading the word" and converting people is definitely important in most of the christian religions in the real world and in R'hollorism and probably also in the feith of the seven in Planetos, it's just not a common trait of religions in general. Take Judaism, the religion I was born into, for exemple: operates very differently from that. According to themselves Jews are the chosen ones - it makes no sense for Jews to gain favour from God by spreading his word. This is just one exemple. Candomblé, the African-Brazilian religion I practice, is very different from this mindset as well - I feel it's similar to the worship of the Old Gods in some ways. Can you see the worshippers of the Old Gods actively trying to 'save' everyone by means of conversion? Do you think the believer of the Old Gods see people who don't engage in their religious practices as doomed (like the Faith of the Seven certanly does)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Dacey Posted January 15, 2018 Share Posted January 15, 2018 19 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said: That's a fair point to make. I mean magic has been shown to be able done by plenty of people throughout the series with seemingly no connection to the R'hollor. Right? Which God/Gods/force is real is a matter of... faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leo of House Cartel Posted January 15, 2018 Share Posted January 15, 2018 6 hours ago, John Suburbs said: Are we even certain that the Others are the enemy that Rhollor is pitted against? Bran looked into the heart of winter and saw something terrifying. So the question is: was that the enemy that is directing the Other's migration south, or is it the enemy that the Others are fleeing as well? Spooky! I like it! Great question John. How about The Children as the opposing force to the Red God? If the Lord of Light does exist then there could certainly be grounds for some "your burning down our damn trees" type scenario if these two forces were to come into contact. In regards to the possible land bridge between continents being a reason for the Lord of Light's connection to the north of Westeros; although George has said there was no land bridge, how about some kind of deal where the ancient Others froze a stretch of ocean and marched across? Simpy spit balling here but keep in mind that the White Walkers are said to be able to do magnificent feats using ice. Would love to hear Thoros of Myr's opinion of the Long Night, considering all that time he spent hanging around weirwood roots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucius Lovejoy Posted January 15, 2018 Share Posted January 15, 2018 10 minutes ago, Lady Dacey said: You've been here indeed! I hadn't seen it. I have to point out that this passage I quoted above is not true about religionfor "true-believers" of all religions. While "spreading the word" and converting people is definitely important in most of the christian religions in the real world and in R'hollorism and probably also in the feith of the seven in Planetos, it's just not a common trait of religions in general. Take Judaism, the religion I was born into, for exemple: operates very differently from that. According to themselves Jews are the chosen ones - it makes no sense for Jews to gain favour from God by spreading his word. This is just one exemple. Candomblé, the African-Brazilian religion I practice, is very different from this mindset as well - I feel it's similar to the worship of the Old Gods in some ways. Can you see the worshippers of the Old Gods actively trying to 'save' everyone by means of conversion? Do you think the believer of the Old Gods see people who don't engage in their religious practices as doomed (like the Faith of the Seven certanly does)? I feel more educated now. I was thinking in simplistic terms considering only Christianity, Islam, and variants of secularism (which I consider a religion in and of itself but that's a different story). Short post = short thoughts, I meant to draw a parallel between R'hllorists and any evangelists, not to casually make a blanket statement. Thanks for your post! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rufus Snow Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 3 hours ago, Lady Dacey said: Judaism ... to ...Candomblé That sounds like an interesting journey, I'd love to hear more about it if only we could chat over a couple of caiparinhas... I imagine that gives you a unique viewpoint on this forum. 3 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said: Readers are gonna poo a bunch of frosty snowflakes when they realize what seems the "norm" for this series is about to be turned on end. Ouch - I'll try not to, there are places I really don't want icicles... but I do think Bran saw something that I haven't even imagined yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Dacey Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 @Rufus Snow feel free to PM me The way GRRM depicts religion and magic is definetely one of the things I live about the books. It's so layered and complex, and open for interpretation. I love to think and talk about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Suburbs Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 21 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said: Readers are gonna poo a bunch of frosty snowflakes when they realize what seems the "norm" for this series is about to be turned on end. 21 hours ago, Leo of House Cartel said: Spooky! I like it! Great question John. How about The Children as the opposing force to the Red God? If the Lord of Light does exist then there could certainly be grounds for some "your burning down our damn trees" type scenario if these two forces were to come into contact. I'll throw an even bigger curve at this topic: are we even certain that it is the Others who are animating and controlling the wights? We are five novels deep into the series, and we have yet to actually see this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varysblackfyre321 Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 21 hours ago, Lady Dacey said: Right? Which God/Gods/force is real is a matter of... faith. Which gives (in my mind at least), the FM are the closet to the mark, since all these diffrent people with contrasting beliefs can still do a lot of the same things. I always took "the great other" as simply being the leader of the "others" but it appears(as others have pointed out), just about any spiritual force or idea of a spiritual force is seen as his servent(ex.the drowned God). A demon. This may sound absurd but I don't know what if the great other is seen by the red priests as. the many faced God? All the gods besides the red God are simply attempts by it to steer people away from the true path? I sincerely hope, that it doesn't turn out to be some utterly pure evil force that's going to be revealed to driving the conflict and the others are merely fleeing that force. Kinda lame in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Dacey Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 16 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said: All the gods besides the red God are simply attempts by it to steer people away from the true path? That's definitely how the red priests see it. Just like the High Septon thinks that only following the Faith of the Seven and the teachings of The Seven Pointed Star can save a person from the supposed seven hells. 19 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said: I sincerely hope, that it doesn't turn out to be some utterly pure evil force that's going to be revealed to driving the conflict and the others are merely fleeing that force. Kinda lame in my opinion. I agree. I truly can't see it happening though. We've been dealing with the others since Game. Such a 'plot twist' is very unseemly to me - not GRRM's style either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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