Did the Tyrells violate guest right?

[Varysblackfyre321]

In another thread someone had pointed out Jamie had violated guest rights by trying to murder Bran. That got me wondering who else has done this, you know besides the Freys. And that got me thinking;have the Tyrells violated guest right by trying to poison at his own wedding? If so will they suffer like some presume the Freys will suffer for the RW? 

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

What pressure? To the world, Tyrion did it. He had a trial 'n stuff, proven guilty, etc.

(And, when it comes to the readers, some of us just can't force themselves to see murdering Joffrey as a bad thing. You may call it bias, but what can you do).

[Nowy Tends]

Killing Joffrey was a measure of public hygiene.

[Varysblackfyre321]

13 minutes ago, Nowy Tends said:

Killing Joffrey was a measure of public hygiene.

So you don't think the "gods" would enact Justice on house Tyrell or any guest  of Joffery for his murder?

[Universal Sword Donor]

The Tyrells might suffer karmic backlash but the biggest driver behind punishing people for Joffrey's death was Cersei and she's 100% on board the "Tyrion did it" train.

Manderly is the closest but he also abided by the letter of the guest right "law" in what he allegedly did to the Freys. 

Honestly there really aren't many nobles who aren't prisoners who are in a location or position where guest right would apply. Maybe Edmure and his family might but they are technically prisoners.

Myrcella would be the only other one I can think of.

[Lucius Lovejoy]

I believe free will exists in the ASOIAF universe, and further that if any superior beings exist in the ASOIAF they are not monitoring some form of "karma scoreboard."  Consequences for actions are doled out only by other humans acting according to their own free will. Joffrey got poisoned because he was a dangerous jerk whose actions encouraged others to want to murder him.  The Tyrells and Jaime may have violated guest right, but unless someone cares to hold them accountable for it (and in Jaime's case LSH might but really she seems more concerned about his oath to return Sansa and Arya) I don't think they will turn into rat cooks any time soon.  I think GRRM's emphasis on violation of guest rights is really meant to foreshadow whatever horrors LSH or Stannis might subject the Frey's too of their own free will.  I don't see anyone looking to peg Joffrey's murder on the Tyrells and punish it - if the Tyrells fall apart it is because Cersei is paranoid and Aegon is powerful.

[Lady Dacey]

Jaime was the guest. If Bran had tried to kill Jaime, that would be a violation of guest right. Joffrey was the host of the wedding, the Tyrells were the guests. No guest-right-violating situations at all. 

[Deepbollywood Motte]

6 minutes ago, Lady Dacey said:

Jaime was the guest. If Bran had tried to kill Jaime, that would be a violation of guest right. Joffrey was the host of the wedding, the Tyrells were the guests. No guest-right-violating situations at all. 

Guest right works both ways. 

[Nowy Tends]

31 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

So you don't think the "gods" would enact Justice on house Tyrell or any guest  of Joffery for his murder?

IDK, but Joffrey himself wasn't exactly clean on the matter of guest right: he humiliated his uncle, threatened him, destroyed his wedding present, etc.

[Varysblackfyre321]

21 minutes ago, Nowy Tends said:

IDK, but Joffrey himself wasn't exactly clean on the matter of guest right: he humiliated his uncle, threatened him, destroyed his wedding present, etc.

Tyrion was a official resident in the RK no? Can he even be qualified as a guest at the RK?

[The Sunland Lord]

Never thought of it, but probably yes. It's also a kingslaying. The guest right is taken very serious. Who knows if the participants would be punished. Perhaps for some other matter unrelated to this though. 

[Lady Dacey]

1 hour ago, Deepbollywood Motte said:

Guest right works both ways. 

Does it? I didn't know (honestly). I always thought is was about the guest being safe from the host. Not that it's a nice thing to attempt murder on your guest, but I never thought it meant the same as the other way around. Do we have any evidence of it on the books? 

[Varysblackfyre321]

2 hours ago, Lucius Lovejoy said:

I believe free will exists in the ASOIAF universe, and further that if any superior beings exist in the ASOIAF they are not monitoring some form of "karma scoreboard."  Consequences for actions are doled out only by other humans acting according to their own free will. Joffrey got poisoned because he was a dangerous jerk whose actions encouraged others to want to murder him.  The Tyrells and Jaime may have violated guest right, but unless someone cares to hold them accountable for it (and in Jaime's case LSH might but really she seems more concerned about his oath to return Sansa and Arya) I don't think they will turn into rat cooks any time soon.  I think GRRM's emphasis on violation of guest rights is really meant to foreshadow whatever horrors LSH or Stannis might subject the Frey's too of their own free will.  I don't see anyone looking to peg Joffrey's murder on the Tyrells and punish it - if the Tyrells fall apart it is because Cersei is paranoid and Aegon is powerful.

I agree with your sentiments quite frankly. I think too many fans take the violating guest=  automatic divine retribution specificly when talking of the consequences for the RW but honestly we time and time again people who commit some of the worst crimes that could be thought against the gods(either the 7 and/or the old golds), and they don't really get that bad of a punishment if any at all for their actions. I mean contrast the end of oh so ever devout Catelyn Stark and Biter, the septa raping and murdering canibal. Catelyn Stark always paid tribute to the gods, and tried to be pious. For her attempts to be a godly women she goes through the grief of her 8 year old son being crippled for life,having lost a husband shortly after, suffer the grief of 2 sons dying(thinking they were brutally murdered), one daughter who she thinks is being raped by her father's killers and the knowledge she too will die after giving birth to a child and having to witness her firstborn son being murdered. And to top it all off she's turned into a zombie.

Biter raped and literaly ate silent sisters and was unrepentant sinner. For his crimes against the gods...he got stabbed in the head and quickly died I'm sure not even realizing he had been killed.

Divine justice does not appear to be a thing.

[Varysblackfyre321]

6 minutes ago, Lady Dacey said:

Does it? I didn't know (honestly). I always thought is was about the guest being safe from the host. Not that it's a nice thing to attempt murder on your guest, but I never thought it meant the same as the other way around. Do we have any evidence of it on the books? 

I mean wouldn't that be just a given? Like you don't try to harm your host or your guest? Why would only one be protected without the other? 

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

8 minutes ago, Lady Dacey said:

Does it? I didn't know (honestly). I always thought is was about the guest being safe from the host. Not that it's a nice thing to attempt murder on your guest, but I never thought it meant the same as the other way around. Do we have any evidence of it on the books? 

Sure.

The Lord Commander stood over Craster’s corpse, dark with anger. “The gods will curse us,” he cried. “There is no crime so foul as for a guest to bring murder into a man’s hall.”

[Lady Dacey]

This is Mance to Jon:

Quote

"Your father would have had my head off." The king gave a shrug. "Though once I had eaten at his board I was protected by guestright. The laws of hospitality are as old as the First Men, and sacred as a heart tree." He gestured at the board between them, the broken bread and chicken bones. "Here you are the guest, and safe from harm at my hands . . . this night, at least. So tell me truly, Jon Snow. Are you a craven who turned your cloak from fear, or is there another reason that brings you to my tent?"

 

[Lady Dacey]

3 minutes ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

Sure.

The Lord Commander stood over Craster’s corpse, dark with anger. “The gods will curse us,” he cried. “There is no crime so foul as for a guest to bring murder into a man’s hall.”

Thanks for the quote! 

[Varysblackfyre321]

10 minutes ago, Lady Dacey said:

This is Mance to Jon:

 

I kinda wonder about that...I mean he is still a fugitive guest or no, I don't think Ned will see himself as being in any violation if he had Mance arrested.

[Roswell]

2 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

In another thread someone had pointed out Jamie had violated guest rights by trying to murder Bran. That got me wondering who else has done this, you know besides the Freys. And that got me thinking;have the Tyrells violated guest right by trying to poison at his own wedding? If so will they suffer like some presume the Freys will suffer for the RW? 

Violations of Guest Rights

1. Jaime pushing Bran out of the window.
2. Red wedding.
3. The Tyrells and Baelish when they killed Joffrey.
4. Mance Rayder and his women when they killed Roose Bolton's serving men and Big Walder Frey.
5. Craster's Keep.

[Clegane'sPup]

27 minutes ago, Lady Dacey said:

Does it? I didn't know (honestly). I always thought is was about the guest being safe from the host. Not that it's a nice thing to attempt murder on your guest, but I never thought it meant the same as the other way around. Do we have any evidence of it on the books? 

I’ll provide what the author wrote.

A Storm of Swords - Jon I      The laws of hospitality are as old as the First Men, and sacred as a heart tree." He gestured at the board between them, the broken bread and chicken bones. "Here you are the guest, and safe from harm at my hands . . . this night, at least. /

I don’t own WOIAF.  It is available on the search site   https://asearchoficeandfire.com/

The World of Ice and Fire - The North      One notable custom that the Northmen hold dearer than any other is guest right, the tradition of hospitality by which a man may offer no harm to a guest beneath his roof, nor a guest to his host. The Andals held to something like it as well, but it looms less large in southron minds. /

Since I don’t have the App I can’t say what it says about guest right. In my opinion it appears that for the one night both the guest and the host are safe for the night..