Did the Tyrells violate guest right?

[Varysblackfyre321]

8 minutes ago, The Transporter said:

Mance Rayder and his women when they killed Roose Bolton's serving men and Big Walder Frey

Ah! I made that very mistake! Mance and his women did not break guest right for Manderly provided all the food and drink to which was eaten at WF. Not the Boltons. So they're protected. 

[Roswell]

1 minute ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Ah! I made that very mistake! Mance and his women did not break guest right for Manderly provided all the food and drink to which was eaten at WF. Not the Boltons. So they're protected. 

I disagree with you.  I really do.  The Boltons are the hosts. 

The horses that were slaughtered and eaten, some were Bolton's horses.   It is very unlikely that Manderly provided ALL of the food and prepared ALL of the food.  Mance Rayder is guilty of the violation of guest rights.  And you know by now where this talk is headed.  There is no wiggling out of this, Varysblackfyre321.  Mance Rayder violated guest rights. 

[Varysblackfyre321]

Oh the mountain and his horde?

When they came to that in, ate, and then proceeded to gangrape the innkeeper's daughter and kill his son. That's a violation.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

30 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

I’ll provide what the author wrote.

A Storm of Swords - Jon I      The laws of hospitality are as old as the First Men, and sacred as a heart tree." He gestured at the board between them, the broken bread and chicken bones. "Here you are the guest, and safe from harm at my hands . . . this night, at least. /

I don’t own WOIAF.  It is available on the search site   https://asearchoficeandfire.com/

 

The World of Ice and Fire - The North      One notable custom that the Northmen hold dearer than any other is guest right, the tradition of hospitality by which a man may offer no harm to a guest beneath his roof, nor a guest to his host. The Andals held to something like it as well, but it looms less large in southron minds. /

Since I don’t have the App I can’t say what it says about guest right. In my opinion it appears that for the one night both the guest and the host are safe for the night..

So I wonder does the guest right protection continue into the next day & the day after as long as the guest has ate & drank? 

And the way I understand it, correct me if I'm wrong, if the guest did not eat or drink whether it was because they refused it or was not offered then there is no guest right correct? 

Until this thread & the quotes provided I honestly did not know guest right extended to the host as well. 

[Lucius Lovejoy]

Thanks @Lady Dacey, @Ferocious Veldt Roarer, @Clegane'sPup for clearing up the guest rights go both ways thing.  I was uncertain and really only thought about host offering protection to guest before.  I haven't read the world book or any of the Dunk & Egg books and it always drives me nuts how frequently knowledge from them is assumed on the forum.

52 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Divine justice does not appear to be a thing.

It sure isn't and I much prefer it that way.

 

 

[Dorian Martell's son]

3 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

In another thread someone had pointed out Jamie had violated guest rights by trying to murder Bran. That got me wondering who else has done this, you know besides the Freys. And that got me thinking;have the Tyrells violated guest right by trying to poison at his own wedding? If so will they suffer like some presume the Freys will suffer for the RW? 

I do not think the Tyrells ever asked for the guest right.  Robb did

[Dorian Martell's son]

1 hour ago, Lady Dacey said:

Does it? I didn't know (honestly). I always thought is was about the guest being safe from the host. Not that it's a nice thing to attempt murder on your guest, but I never thought it meant the same as the other way around. Do we have any evidence of it on the books? 

It does. it is why Wyman gifted horses to the freys before he killed them and made them into pies to be served to their family 

[Lady Dacey]

9 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

I do not think the Tyrells ever asked for the guest right.  Robb did

You don't have to ask for it. If you've shared meat and mead/bread and salt, you're officially a guest and have guest right. 

[Varysblackfyre321]

13 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

I do not think the Tyrells ever asked for the guest right.  Robb did

Lacey Dacy is right; and no Robb didn't. He found the whole concept of resting his security on that ridiculous.

[Frey Kings]

Jaime slit King Aerys' throat under his roof

Tywin and his army were invited in only to sack it

 

It was BOTH Margaery and Joffrey's wedding, since Joffrey is a  illegitimate king in the sight of gods & men, does that count?

[Curled Finger]

Now wait a minute.  I thought the guest right was put into place for diplomatic reasons (this could be real world and won't I feel silly for bringing it up).  It was in order to foster safe places for warring factions to meet.  

We know that guest right is a big deal in the North at least, but Old Walder certainly understands about offering bread and salt, so this is a thing beyond the North. 

Didn't Theon break guest right at Winterfell by raiding it?  Vic and his bunch in taking Moat Cailyn?  Asha?  Surely invaded homes are a violation of simple good manners and hospitality?  Or is it all dependent upon the bread and salt, or ritual of offering and taking them?  

What about those parting gifts to release those dirty rat Freys from his protection Manderly gives? 

Is guest right a thing in the South? 

[Varysblackfyre321]

15 minutes ago, Frey Kings said:

Jaime slit King Aerys' throat under his roof

Tywin and his army were invited in only to sack it

 

It was BOTH Margaery and Joffrey's wedding, since Joffrey is a  illegitimate king in the sight of gods & men, does that count?

Perhaps in the sight of gods(if they exist), and some men(Stannis and his supporters, and Dany). He was annointed and crowned. The RK is his legally recognized place of residence and he invited the Tyrells there for a wedding. 

[Darth Sidious]

5 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

In another thread someone had pointed out Jamie had violated guest rights by trying to murder Bran. That got me wondering who else has done this, you know besides the Freys. And that got me thinking;have the Tyrells violated guest right by trying to poison at his own wedding? If so will they suffer like some presume the Freys will suffer for the RW? 

Guest rights is actually violated numerous times.  People will break rules if the motivation is strong enough.  The Freys were motivated by fear and anger.  The Tyrells, ambition.  They didn't have to marry into the Lannisters, but they wanted more power.   

There will only be consequence if someone has a strong enough motivation to take revenge.  I don't see that happening to the Freys.  The north may hate them but I doubt anybody would be foolish enough to march back down to the Riverlands and start another war.  The Tyrells are in danger though.  Cersei and Jaime are foolish enough to take up arms against the Tyrells when they find out what the Queen of Thorns did.

2 hours ago, The Transporter said:

Violations of Guest Rights

1. Jaime pushing Bran out of the window.
2. Red wedding.
3. The Tyrells and Baelish when they killed Joffrey.
4. Mance Rayder and his women when they killed Roose Bolton's serving men and Big Walder Frey.
5. Craster's Keep.

There's more than that.  I can think of the following that could add to this list.

1. Theon. He took Winterfell from Bran.
2. Sansa.  The slow poisoning of Robin Arryn.

That is at least seven instances of breaking guest rights.

[Darth Sidious]

21 minutes ago, Frey Kings said:

Jaime slit King Aerys' throat under his roof

Tywin and his army were invited in only to sack it

 

It was BOTH Margaery and Joffrey's wedding, since Joffrey is a  illegitimate king in the sight of gods & men, does that count?

Joffrey's legitimacy as a king has nothing to do with guest rights.  A low-born bastard with no last name and who cannot read is entitled to the same protection of guest rights in Westeros.  The Tyrells are guilty.  

[Varysblackfyre321]

9 minutes ago, Agent Orange said:

Guest rights is actually violated numerous times.  People will break rules if the motivation is strong enough.  The Freys were motivated by fear and anger.  The Tyrells, ambition.  They didn't have to marry into the Lannisters, but they wanted more power.   

There will only be consequence if someone has a strong enough motivation to take revenge.  I don't see that happening to the Freys.  The north may hate them but I doubt anybody would be foolish enough to march back down to the Riverlands and start another war.  The Tyrells are in danger though.  Cersei and Jaime are foolish enough to take up arms against the Tyrells when they find out what the Queen of Thorns did.

There's more than that.  I can think of the following that could add to this list.

1. Theon. He took Winterfell from Bran.
2. Sansa.  The slow poisoning of Robin Arryn.

That is at least seven instances of breaking guest rights.

Theon was a prisoner...and he came back to winterfell under the cover of night and seized it by force he was not invited. Would you say Sansa's mistreatment while at the red keep counts as a violation against it?

[Darth Sidious]

10 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Theon was a prisoner...and he came back to winterfell under the cover of night and seized it by force he was not invited. Would you say Sansa's mistreatment while at the red keep counts as a violation against it?

I don't think Bran saw Theon as a prisoner.  He was free to come and go.  The spirit of guest rights is about somebody seeking shelter under the assumption that they will do no harm to the host and the host will do no harm to the guest.   Guest rights is violated when somebody enters the dwelling of the host and implies that they are no threat to the host.  Somebody coming in and tricking the host to let them in and then harming the host and his household violates guest rights.  I don't have the books with me atm, but if Theon came in under the cover of darkness and didn't pretend to be friendly towards Bran before taking the castle then I stand corrected and there was no violation.  

Sansa's mistreatment at the Red Keep would probably count as a violation of guest rights.  I think guest rights is violated when somebody enters under false pretense or somebody is invited under false pretense.  In other words, somebody tricked somebody.  Falsehood is usually involved.

[Varysblackfyre321]

2 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

 

Is guest right a thing in the South? 

Tyrion asks if Illaryio if Bravos had such a custom as guest right as they have in Westeroes and  yeah it appears to be a thing recognized throughout the realm.

[RagnarokKing]

4 hours ago, Frey Kings said:

Jaime slit King Aerys' throat under his roof

Tywin and his army were invited in only to sack it

Jaime was a Kingsguard, he lived at the Red Keep, he was not a guest.  So he was guilty of Kingslaying, breaking Kingsguard vows, and (not to start this argument) possibly patricide/kinslaying if Aerys was actually his father; but he was not guilty of breaking guest right.

As for Tywin, arguably perhaps he did, but there was no eating of bread and salt, the recognized initiation of guest right, rather they just waltzed in and started sacking the place.  Also, can an entire city fall under the purview of guest right? We know for sure that homes and castles count, but an entire city might be a bit of a stretch.

[The Sunland Lord]

5 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Didn't Theon break guest right at Winterfell by raiding it?  Vic and his bunch in taking Moat Cailyn?  Asha?  Surely invaded homes are a violation of simple good manners and hospitality?  Or is it all dependent upon the bread and salt, or ritual of offering and taking them?  

If Theon or Victarion weren't invited nor did ask for hospitality in those castles, it doesn count. They simply took these castles by force. They didn't come "as friends" from the beginning.

 

[The Wolves]

7 hours ago, The Transporter said:

I disagree with you.  I really do.  The Boltons are the hosts. 

The horses that were slaughtered and eaten, some were Bolton's horses.   It is very unlikely that Manderly provided ALL of the food and prepared ALL of the food.  Mance Rayder is guilty of the violation of guest rights.  And you know by now where this talk is headed.  There is no wiggling out of this, Varysblackfyre321.  Mance Rayder violated guest rights. 

I doubt Mance violated guest rights, the Wildlings are just as traditional and respectful of the old gods as any Northernmen, I have no doubt that they made sure that they didn’t violate guest rights.