Dorian Martell's son Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 6 hours ago, Lady Dacey said: You don't have to ask for it. If you've shared meat and mead/bread and salt, you're officially a guest and have guest right. did anyone see Olena eat? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zapho Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 Not that I recall. Maybe guest rights don't apply if you have to pay for the hospitality - in an inn for example. Or if you bring your own food to the table - like Lord Manderly or the Tyrells (who paid for the food served at the Purple Wedding). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kandrax Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 10 hours ago, The Transporter said: Violations of Guest Rights Jaime pushing Bran out of the window. Red wedding. The Tyrells and Baelish when they killed Joffrey. Mance Rayder and his women when they killed Roose Bolton's serving men and Big Walder Frey. Craster's Keep. It is Little Walder and his killer is either Big Walder or Ramsay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wolves Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 9 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said: did anyone see Olena eat? She’s been in the Red Keep for weeks so yes she’s eaten there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yaya Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 great topic VBF321 - thanks, i never thought about this before! ok, violation of guest right specifics - i like it ... if we are considering a murder within a family / family person kills a family member, i would contend that this isn't guest violation, it's kinslaying and is probably higer on the level of evil. [regarding the purple wedding and olena, it could very well be that she didn't eat lannister food, she could have stayed in her own tent or wheelhouse. she didn't need anything from the lannisters so she didn't have ask for guest right, and since the bedding didn't happen at the wedding, she wasn't kinfolk with the lannister family by law. worked out great] regarding jaime though - a question for more information: was he a guest at winterfell or was he acting as a knight of the kingsguard? would a knight of the kingsguard get some sort of custom violation exemption consideration? i would agree with folks who state (in this, my summarization): - when people come and take over/war with you, there isn't any "invitation" so that doesn't count as a guest/host violation, its like today's insurance clause of 'act of war'. - if you are in an economic agreement of sorts with someone and then that someone murders you, that would be "murder" and not a guest/host violation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curled Finger Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 21 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said: Tyrion asks if Illaryio if Bravos had such a custom as guest right as they have in Westeroes and yeah it appears to be a thing recognized throughout the realm. Great. Thankee, Sai. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curled Finger Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 1 hour ago, Yaya said: [regarding the purple wedding and olena, it could very well be that she didn't eat lannister food, she could have stayed in her own tent or wheelhouse. she didn't need anything from the lannisters so she didn't have ask for guest right, and since the bedding didn't happen at the wedding, she wasn't kinfolk with the lannister family by law. worked out great] regarding jaime though - a question for more information: was he a guest at winterfell or was he acting as a knight of the kingsguard? would a knight of the kingsguard get some sort of custom violation exemption consideration? i would agree with folks who state (in this, my summarization): - when people come and take over/war with you, there isn't any "invitation" so that doesn't count as a guest/host violation, its like today's insurance clause of 'act of war'. - if you are in an economic agreement of sorts with someone and then that someone murders you, that would be "murder" and not a guest/host violation. Hi YaYa--always good to see you! Would "guest" be extended to anyone in your home, whether they bring their own food or not? I thought the ideal was safety. I'm not sure if the deal with giving and taking bread and salt is simply tradition or if it's part of the pact. Sure would be nitpicky if you don't have protection because you don't eat their food. Same goes for Jamie's deal, he was part of Robert's entourage and guest right should have included him and Cersei. Where in your list do you rate Brienne, Pod, Hyle, Septon Meribald and Dog in this guest right? They provided the food for everyone at the inn and we know it was a set up to take Brienne. Should Heddle and Gendry have protected their guests? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curled Finger Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 19 hours ago, The Sunland Lord said: If Theon or Victarion weren't invited nor did ask for hospitality in those castles, it doesn count. They simply took these castles by force. They didn't come "as friends" from the beginning. I see I got a bit carried away with my free association! Thanks for picking it up and being the voice of clarity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sunland Lord Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 4 hours ago, Curled Finger said: I see I got a bit carried away with my free association! Thanks for picking it up and being the voice of clarity. Can't say if you joking or serious Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corvo the Crow Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 One important question is, does gust right protect one guest from the other? If there's no such thing than most examples given here aren't actually any violations of it. From memory, no Bolton is killed in Winterfell, so Mance and Manderly, two decent fellows who adhere to guest right from our earlier encounters with them are still giving it value. As for Tyrells, "In the eyes of gods and men..." we are often told; Joffrey is a bastard so actually he has no right to be the host, absolving Tyrells. Roose also has no right to be the host, whether because it is now Ramsay who is Lord of Winterfell or because Boltons have no right to have it, it doesn't matter much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferocious Veldt Roarer Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 16 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said: One important question is, does gust right protect one guest from the other? Yes. “There is no crime so foul as for a guest to bring murder into a man’s hall.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corvo the Crow Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 17 minutes ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said: Yes. “There is no crime so foul as for a guest to bring murder into a man’s hall.” The murder talked of there is the murder of the host. We don't see any comments for guest on guest murder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferocious Veldt Roarer Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 2 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said: The murder talked of there is the murder of the host. Yes, but the law quoted there is more general than that. 2 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said: We don't see any comments for guest on guest murder. “There is no crime so foul as for a guest to bring murder into a man’s hall.” It's about any murder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheThreeEyedCow Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 The difference between Frey and Tyrell in this case is finesse. The Frey's did it in the most obvious, dumb b*stard way, earning enmity. The Tyrell's used subterfuge and guile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sunland Lord Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 3 hours ago, TheThreeEyedCow said: The difference between Frey and Tyrell in this case is finesse. The Frey's did it in the most obvious, dumb b*stard way, earning enmity. The Tyrell's used subterfuge and guile. That and here was only one target, not thousands of people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Mormont Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 On 1/15/2018 at 9:51 PM, Varysblackfyre321 said: Theon was a prisoner...and he came back to winterfell under the cover of night and seized it by force he was not invited. Theon was not a guest, he was a hostage, brought to Winterfell to ensure Balon did not revolt again. Had Theon tried to escape or Balon rebelled again, then Ned would have had the right to punish Theon as he saw fit, including taking his head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigella Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 On 2018-01-16 at 3:39 AM, Agent Orange said: There will only be consequence if someone has a strong enough motivation to take revenge. I don't see that happening to the Freys. The north may hate them but I doubt anybody would be foolish enough to march back down to the Riverlands and start another war. This is only true if you exclude BwB and Stoneheart though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varysblackfyre321 Posted January 17, 2018 Author Share Posted January 17, 2018 On January 15, 2018 at 4:52 PM, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said: So I wonder does the guest right protection continue into the next day & the day after as long as the guest has ate & drank? And the way I understand it, correct me if I'm wrong, if the guest did not eat or drink whether it was because they refused it or was not offered then there is no guest right correct? To answer this question; yes. The moment you take a sip of the host's drink and food that has been directly offered (though it appears at least one would suffice), you are privy to guest right. Based on Mance's conversation with Jon, yes it can last the next day at least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varysblackfyre321 Posted January 17, 2018 Author Share Posted January 17, 2018 19 hours ago, Yaya said: regarding the purple wedding and olena, it could very well be that she didn't eat lannister food, she could have stayed in her own tent or wheelhouse. she didn't need anything from the lannisters so she didn't have ask for guest right, and since the bedding didn't happen at the wedding, she wasn't kinfolk with the lannister family by law. worked out great] She wouldn't need be kinfolk with them to break guest right. I can't imagine she much cares for the age old superstition surrounding the consequences of violating guest right so I don't see her taking the extreme steps Manderly took to avoid violating it. I mean she's already committing treason and regicide by poisoning Joffery for no apparent reason other than he might be a bad husband to Margary; two f great sins in it of themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferocious Veldt Roarer Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 1 hour ago, Sigella said: This is only true if you exclude BwB and Stoneheart though. ...and disregard the fact that Freys deliver to Winterfell, no need to go all the way to the Riverlands to pick up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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