Lost Melnibonean Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 From Sansa VI, Storm 68... Quote "Oswell's brought some oranges and pomegranates from the King." So, the oranges and the pomegranates were brought together... Quote Grisel reappeared before he could say more, balancing a large platter. She set it down between them. There were apples and pears and pomegranates, some sad-looking grapes, a huge blood orange. The old woman had brought a round of bread as well, and a crock of butter. Petyr cut a pomegranate in two with his dagger, offering half to Sansa. "You should try and eat, my lady." Not just an orange, but a blood orange... Quote "Thank you, my lord." Pomegranate seeds were so messy; Sansa chose a pear instead, and took a small delicate bite. It was very ripe. The juice ran down her chin. Can’t keep your hands clean with pomegranate seeds... Quote Lord Petyr loosened a seed with the point of his dagger. Doh! And there it is: the seed that Petyr loosened (or pried) from the pomegranate (or Jon Arryn) was wee Robert. Dig what he does with his seed... Quote He brought the seed to his mouth with the knife. "In King's Landing, there are two sorts of people. The players and the pieces." Well, we know Robert ain’t no player, and that poor little boy ain’t got long for this world, does he? Quote He smiled, his thin lips bright red from the pomegranate seeds. Yikes! Quote Lord Petyr cut the blood orange in two with his dagger and offered half to Sansa. Oh Sansa, just say no... Quote He tilted his chin back and squeezed the blood orange, so the juice ran down into his mouth. "I love the juice but I loathe the sticky fingers," he complained, wiping his hands. "Clean hands,Sansa. Whatever you do, make certain your hands are clean." Sansa spooned up some juice from her own orange. Or just spoon it up, I guess... Quote Make me a baby, Petyr," she screamed, "make me another sweet little baby." Of course, the casual reader will begin to understand that to mean the fetus that Lord Hoster forced Lysa to abort. But perhaps Lysa is referring to a second son? Quote "Jon Arryn was no dwarf, but he was old. You may not think so to see me now, but on the day we wed I was so lovely I put your mother to shame. But all Jon desired was my father's swords, to aid his darling boys. I should have refused him, but he was such an old man, how long could he live? Half his teeth were gone, and his breath smelled like bad cheese. I cannot abide a man with foul breath. Petyr's breath is always fresh . . . he was the first man I ever kissed, you know. My father said he was too lowborn, but I knew how high he'd rise. Jon gave him the customs for Gulltown to please me, but when he increased the incomes tenfold my lord husband saw how clever he was and gave him other appointments, even brought him to King's Landing to be master of coin. That was hard, to see him every day and still be wed to that old cold man. Jon did his duty in the bedchamber, but he could no more give me pleasure than he could give me children. His seed was old and weak. All my babies died but Robert, three girls and two boys. All my sweet little babies dead, and that old man just went on and on with his stinking breath. So you see, I have suffered too." Lady Lysa sniffed. I had always resisted this theory before, thinking that Lysa meant that all six of the pregnancies mentioned above were Jon’s, but I can see now that doesn’t necessarily follow. She says Jon could not give her children. That this follows the bit about Petyr loosening a seed earlier in the same chapter has caused me to change my mind about this theory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 The final quote seems to point very poignantly in that direction. Still, with Lysa dead and she and Jon likely sharing the bed while Lysa was (presumably) also fucking Littlefinger in secret it would be next to impossible for us to learn who the true father is. Even Lysa herself might be mistaken on the whole thing. After all, Jon Arryn believes Robert is his son, right? And he would only believe that if he knew he fucked his wife around the time the boy was, presumably, fathered. Jon Arryn isn't the drunkard Robert who doesn't remember that he didn't fuck his wife Cersei since shortly after their wedding. Another problem is the whole question whether Littlefinger was already in KL when Robert was conceived. That was about seven years before AGoT begins. Could be that this was the time Jon first called Littlefinger to court, leading to his eventual rise to Master of Coin. But we don't know that yet. If he came to court only, say, six years prior to AGoT then it would be very difficult for him to be the father of Robert. Not impossible, but very difficult. However, chances are not that bad that Littlefinger and Lysa had some sort of intimate affair while they were both in KL. But one assumes that they must have been very, very careful and discreet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucius Lovejoy Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 @Lost Melnibonean that quote from Lysa is powerful... but it shows her inconsistency - she keeps repeating how Jon Arryn said the seed was strong in the context of Robert being Jon's son. I have a hard time believing that Littlefinger coached Lysa so well to be so believable. I don't know if there is any medical reason to believe an older man's sperm is more likely to beget a sickly child, so not sure what to make of this - maybe Lysa's moontea or whatever else messed her up and the issue is with her. Either way I think Robert is Jon's, but it can be up for debate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curled Finger Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 I don't know how you find this stuff @Lost Melnibonean, but keep it coming. Loose seed and all, well done Ser. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Sidious Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 1 hour ago, Lost Melnibonean said: From Sansa Sansa VI, Storm 68... So, the oranges and the pomegranates were brought together... Not just an orange, but a blood orange... Can’t keep your hands clean with pomegranate seeds... Doh! And there it is: the seed that Petyr loosened (or pried) from the pomegranate (or Jon Arryn) was wee Robert. Dig what he does with his seed... Well, we know Robert ain’t no player, and that poor little boy ain’t got long for this world, does he? Yikes! Oh Sansa, just say no... Or just spoon it up, I guess..." Of course, the casual reader will begin to understand that to mean the fetus that Lord Hoster forced Lysa to abort. But perhaps Lysa is referring to a second son? I had always resisted this theory before, thinking that Lysa meant that all six of the pregnancies mentioned above were Jon’s, but I can see now that doesn’t necessarily follow. She says Jon could not give her children. That this follows the bit about Petyr loosening a seed earlier in the same chapter has caused me to change my mind about this theory. This may be the case. On the one hand, it cannot be proven without modern DNA testing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Dacey Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 I never ever liked this theory, but that quote is indeed powerful. I'm reconsidering now. It makes Petys Baelish a new level of the evil if he's poisoning his own son. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlaskanSandman Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 Lysa's account of Jon Arryn's seed being strong as a reference to her Sweet Robin could just be her trying (On her own) to deflect suspicion that Sweet Robin isn't Old Man Wilbert Jon Arryn's. With out even truly knowing what Jon was actually referring to; Roberts children always having dark hair and Joffery not being Robert's. Just a thought though. I tend to agree with you by the way with out even needing all those quotes haha her's does help though. The loosing his seed with the tip of the dagger was a nice touch though specially as i did a thread called a hot crystal sword for a cold sheath that was reference to the same mating concept having to do with Nissa and Azor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varysblackfyre321 Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 Is this really up for question at this point? I mean a tall strong blond man like Jon Arryn would not sire a short brown haired really skinny child s with a red haired woman like Lysha. But you know who would? A short skinny brown haired man. Like Petry who had a prime opportunity to cuckhold Jon Arryn while he(petyr), was in town while big Arryn was away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lAPPYc Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 I would love it if this were true. While I will never wish sickly children on anyone, real or fictional, with Littlefinger, all bets are off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ralphis Baratheon Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 Strong Robin is the winged knight, with the heart of a hero and the eyes of a falcon. Only a true Arryn can have the eyes of a falcon. Robert sees whats going on and just doesn't let his handlers know. He sees Harry and Baelish plotting against him. After he turns Sansa against Baelish he shall avenge his father. The Arryn line will survive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LynnS Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 2 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said: Strong Robin is the winged knight, with the heart of a hero and the eyes of a falcon. Only a true Arryn can have the eyes of a falcon. Robert sees whats going on and just doesn't let his handlers know. He sees Harry and Baelish plotting against him. After he turns Sansa against Baelish he shall avenge his father. The Arryn line will survive. Robin is another character that is troubled by night terrors. The other is Tyrion. While Tyrion controls it with drink; poor Robin is given a drug, sweetsleep. He is afraid of men with moles and the bad man who flies. I wonder who or what he dreams about and if this comes from the Tully side or Jon Arryn's side. I'm not sure he trusts Littlefinger either: "The bad little man," Lord Robert said, giggling. "Mother, can I make him fly? I want to see him fly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leo of House Cartel Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 @Lost Melnibonean very compelling evidence, what might Petyr's endgame be if this is indeed the case? Marry Sansa to Robert and rule the North and Vale as some Hand type figure? Eventually kill Sansa, train Robert in the ways of political machinations and rule both areas uncontested? What might LF have in store for Harry if Sweet Robin is his son? 4 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said: Is this really up for question at this point? I mean a tall strong blond man like Jon Arryn would not sire a short brown haired really skinny child s with a red haired woman like Lysha. But you know who would? A short skinny brown haired man. Like Petry who had a prime opportunity to cuckhold Jon Arryn while he(petyr), was in town while big Arryn was away. That's a great point, something I've never seen a clear explanation for - the seed is strong and all that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaehaerys Tyrell Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 I believe Robert Arryn is Petyr Baelish’s son (though I’d still like to see Sweetrobin survive the series and continue the “Arryn” line). I enjoy the irony of Jon investigating Robert’s children because of their hair colour but not thinking of his own child, and I also like the idea of the snobby and ancient Arryn line being supplanted with the descendants of a minor Braavosi lordling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tygett Lannister Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 11 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said: Make me a baby, Petyr," she screamed, "make me another sweet little baby." 11 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said: Of course, the casual reader will begin to understand that to mean the fetus that Lord Hoster forced Lysa to abort. But perhaps Lysa is referring to a second son? Or that Robin is also a sweet little baby that is her's and if she gives birth she will have another baby. "another" doesn't imply it is another by Petyr. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Springwatch Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 11 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said: Doh! And there it is: the seed that Petyr loosened (or pried) from the pomegranate (or Jon Arryn) was wee Robert. Dig what he does with his seed... Love the idea of SR as pomegranate seed. I want this to be true. 4 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said: Strong Robin is the winged knight, with the heart of a hero and the eyes of a falcon. Only a true Arryn can have the eyes of a falcon.... I think SR is a true falcon too - he has that ugly chick look; and we don't really need LF for the brown hair: Tully hair is reddish brown; even the youngsters don't have the bright light hair which is pretty usual for redheads - I'd guess we're supposed to think bronze rather than copper. The Aryns too might be brownish blonds, not bright blonds (Harry's hair was 'sandy'). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 Robert's size and health issues are implied to be at least partially caused from Lysa's earlier abortion. She was a fertile woman, once, but when Hoster aborted her child it apparently affected her womb in no small way. That is part of the reason why she is so obsessed with little Robert. She believes or knows that she is to blame, at least in part, for the loss of Petyr's child and the state little Robert is in right now. Jon Arryn wasn't the most fertile of men, either, but his first wife, Jeyne Royce, died in childbirth, giving him a stillborn daughter. His marriage with his cousin wife Rowena Arryn remained childless, but that might have been due to her fertility issues, not his (or due to the fact that this whole thing was strictly political marriage and they could not stand each other, etc.). While Ronnel, Elbert, and eventually Denys Arryn and his wife were around, there was no need for Jon to have an heir of his own body. Nothing indicates Rowena had died only recently prior to the Rebellion (in fact, part of the reason why Jon took Robert and Ned in as wards is because his castle was so empty, indicating that Rowena was gone by that time). The man could have taken a third wife long before the Rebellion. But he only did so in the end because he needed Hoster's men and because the loss of both Elbert and Denys was causing potential trouble for the Arryn succession. In that sense, I don't think Robert's size and health issues imply in any way that he is a child of Littlefinger's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Springwatch Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 Jon absolutely does have a history of infertility. Lysa, though - there's no evidence. She's spent most of her life with this infertile man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tygett Lannister Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 51 minutes ago, Springwatch said: I think SR is a true falcon too - he has that ugly chick look; and we don't really need LF for the brown hair: Tully hair is reddish brown; even the youngsters don't have the bright light hair which is pretty usual for redheads - I'd guess we're supposed to think bronze rather than copper. The Aryns too might be brownish blonds, not bright blonds (Harry's hair was 'sandy'). Why do you think dynasties have some hair color they mix with other dynasties all the time and you can for example have black hair when your parents are blonde and brown haired. Because everyone has genotype and phenotype (I hope these are the correct English words) one represents whole genetic material that can be inherited and other what genetic material is being used. Wikipedia quote Quote The genotype–phenotype distinction is drawn in genetics. "Genotype" is an organism's full hereditary information. "Phenotype" is an organism's actual observed properties, such as morphology, development, or behavior. This distinction is fundamental in the study of inheritance of traits and their evolution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted January 16, 2018 Author Share Posted January 16, 2018 2 hours ago, Tygett Lannister said: Or that Robin is also a sweet little baby that is her's and if she gives birth she will have another baby. "another" doesn't imply it is another by Petyr. Certainly true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted January 16, 2018 Author Share Posted January 16, 2018 1 hour ago, Tygett Lannister said: Why do you think dynasties have some hair color they mix with other dynasties all the time and you can for example have black hair when your parents are blonde and brown haired. Because everyone has genotype and phenotype (I hope these are the correct English words) one represents whole genetic material that can be inherited and other what genetic material is being used. Wikipedia quote Because this is a science fiction fantasy in which one of the main mysteries involved a subverted dynasty and was solved by a change in hair color. The author borrows from hard science when it suits him, but he is not bound by it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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