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Littlefinger Sired Sweetrobin


Lost Melnibonean

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46 minutes ago, Knight Of Winter said:

I've seen this theory before, and always the main question was: would even LF be so callous and outright vile to plan the death of his own son? Because, if SR is indeed LF's child, there's no doubt in my mind that Lysa would joyously inform LF about that.

Until yesterday morning, I would have listed this old theory in the crackpot column. 

As to your first question, I think the answer is yes. Petyr is as devious as they come. 

As to your second question, if she had told him, he might have replied... "I know what I know, and so do you. Some things are best left unsaid, sweetling, especially when we are alone. Elsewise a day will come when a servant walks into a room unannounced, or a guardsman at the door chances to hear something he should not. Do you want blood on your pretty little hands, my darling? He is Jon's son, and he must be Jon’s son all the time. Even here. In your heart. Can you do that?" Of course, that would have been spoken in the godswood or wherever he and she conceived the little pomegranate seed. 

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37 minutes ago, Knight Of Winter said:

would even LF be so callous and outright vile to plan the death of his own son? Because, if SR is indeed LF's child, there's no doubt in my mind that Lysa would joyously inform LF about that.

Bingo! I agree. Lysa would have told him, and wouldn't be able to stop telling him. And Littlefinger wouldn't likely be so matter of fact and even grimly happy about plotting the kid's death. After all, Little Robert would be his genetic legacy.

Also, remember how Lysa goes on and on about how "finally" she and Petyr are able to get into bed together, and how she'll scream like a wounded banshee? (and does) Seems very unlikely they'd been enjoying a physical relationship in King's Landing. Also, the theory that Petyr had started dosing Lysa with sweetsleep (which many seem to place great stock in) further indicates he had been unfamiliar with her ear-splitting shrieking form of intercourse, and didn't much care for it. No doubt he trains his 'hos to do it that way, which would be a further negative.

"The seed is strong" clearly refers to Cersei's children being no Baratheons. This is what Jon had obsessively been researching up until his death, and what, as far as he knew, led to his death. It was Jon Arryn's last attempt to get the word out. Unfortunately, he said it to his delusional wife, who didn't have a clue about the Lannister/Baratheon intrigues going on and who in fact had administered the poison that killed him. Note that Lysa interpreted it as being the Arryn seed that produced little Robert. If little Bob had been Littlefinger's by-blow, she would have proudly told him so, as Knight of Winter observes.

Robert Arryn as Petyr Baelish's bastard is a dead horse, in my opinion. Let it rest.

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25 minutes ago, zandru said:

Bingo! I agree. Lysa would have told him, and wouldn't be able to stop telling him. And Littlefinger wouldn't likely be so matter of fact and even grimly happy about plotting the kid's death. After all, Little Robert would be his genetic legacy.

Also, remember how Lysa goes on and on about how "finally" she and Petyr are able to get into bed together, and how she'll scream like a wounded banshee? (and does) Seems very unlikely they'd been enjoying a physical relationship in King's Landing. Also, the theory that Petyr had started dosing Lysa with sweetsleep (which many seem to place great stock in) further indicates he had been unfamiliar with her ear-splitting shrieking form of intercourse, and didn't much care for it. No doubt he trains his 'hos to do it that way, which would be a further negative.

"The seed is strong" clearly refers to Cersei's children being no Baratheons. This is what Jon had obsessively been researching up until his death, and what, as far as he knew, led to his death. It was Jon Arryn's last attempt to get the word out. Unfortunately, he said it to his delusional wife, who didn't have a clue about the Lannister/Baratheon intrigues going on and who in fact had administered the poison that killed him. Note that Lysa interpreted it as being the Arryn seed that produced little Robert. If little Bob had been Littlefinger's by-blow, she would have proudly told him so, as Knight of Winter observes.

Robert Arryn as Petyr Baelish's bastard is a dead horse, in my opinion. Let it rest.

Or not...

Quote

I want you now, this very night. And I must warn you, after all these years of silence and whisperings, I mean to scream when you love me. I am going to scream so loud they'll hear me in the Eyrie." 

Sansa VI, Storm 68

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2 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Sansa VI, Storm 68

What, "after all these years of silence and whisperings"? I interpret this as meaning their clandestine, non-sexual meetings in the Red Keep.

Clearly, I can't - and shouldn't - try to calm down folks' obsessions with pomegranate seeds and daggers and blood oranges which all "prove" LfL. Folks read the same text differently. This is why there are 50,000 "different" Christian sects, all of whom think the other 49,999 are heretics.

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1 hour ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Because this is a science fiction fantasy in which one of the main mysteries involved a subverted dynasty and was solved by a change in hair color. The author borrows from hard science when it suits him, but he is not bound by it. 

I am just saying assuming parenthood of someone with some non existent genetic laws is really pointless. You either assume it is fantasy and writer doesn't care and anything is possible or he actually looks at basics of science (I always though genotype and phenotype are known mostly but apparently not).

I don't think Martin's message is that blood matters so I don't think he would make dynasties have special power to keep hair color even though they breed with other lords for 8k years.

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24 minutes ago, zandru said:

What, "after all these years of silence and whisperings"? I interpret this as meaning their clandestine, non-sexual meetings in the Red Keep.

I can't fault you... that was the way I read it too, until yesterday. Perhaps you can look at it objectively, and see that in isolation it could go either way?

24 minutes ago, zandru said:

Clearly, I can't - and shouldn't - try to calm down folks' obsessions with pomegranate seeds and daggers and blood oranges which all "prove" LfL. Folks read the same text differently. This is why there are 50,000 "different" Christian sects, all of whom think the other 49,999 are heretics.

In the OP, I did not submit that the pomegranate seed proved anything. I said it finally convinced me given the other possible evidence. 

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3 hours ago, Tygett Lannister said:

you can for example have black hair when your parents are blonde and brown haired

Blond and brown doesn't make black. When it comes to hair color it's extremely unlikely for the offspring to have darker hair then both parents. Because of the nature of pigment producing genes, your hair will only be as dark as the darker haired parent. It can also be a shade in between that of both parents (which is the most common situation in a normally-distributed population) or even lighter than the hair of the fairer-haired parent. Not darker than the darker haired parent though (not in real life). 

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11 minutes ago, Tygett Lannister said:

I am just saying assuming parenthood of someone with some non existent genetic laws is really pointless. You either assume it is fantasy and writer doesn't care and anything is possible or he actually looks at basics of science (I always though genotype and phenotype are known mostly but apparently not).

I don't think Martin's message is that blood matters so I don't think he would make dynasties have special power to keep hair color even though they breed with other lords for 8k years.

And while I know some other proponents rely on wee Robert’s physical description to support the theory, I don't think it matters. But if the kid was blond and robust with facial features resembling Jon Arryn, the theory would have no legs would it? So, there is a chance here. 

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1 hour ago, zandru said:

Littlefinger wouldn't likely be so matter of fact and even grimly happy about plotting the kid's death. After all, Little Robert would be his genetic legacy.

Sweet Robin I have to say is bitter dissapoint for anyone to be a father to. If Petry were to care such a thing as legacy, Sweetrobin wouldn't be something he'd leave behind; if he only cares of increasing his own power he'd surely sacrifice his son.

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24 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

As to your second question, if she had told him, he might have replied... "I know what I know, and so do you. Some things are best left unsaid, sweetling, especially when we are alone. Elsewise a day will come when a servant walks into a room unannounced, or a guardsman at the door chances to hear something he should not. Do you want blood on your pretty little hands, my darling? He is Jon's son, and he must be Jon’s son all the time. Even here. In your heart. Can you do that?" Of course, that would have been spoken in the godswood or wherever he and she conceived the little pomegranate seed. 

I don't know where I stand on the idea, but I think Littlefinger as the father does have some merit.  I think it makes good thematic sense in many ways to add to the tragedy.  One very good reason I can think of for Lysa not blurting out that SR is LF's, is that it would declare her son a bastard.  If he's not Jon's, then he's not Lord of the Eyrie, she isn't regent, and LF can't be Lord Protector.  Both of their positions and the power they enjoy hinge upon SR always being Jon's.  No one can ever have a reason to suspect Robert's paternity, especially when his hair doesn't match either parent.  In the period after Lysa retreats back to the Eyrie, her behavior has alienated her vassals.  Refusing to enter the Wot5K, relishing the lords courting her while having no intention of marrying one of them, marrying LF instead, spoiling the near universally hated Marillion, etc.  If it ever got out Lysa cuckolded the much loved Jon Arryn, I don't think those lords would have a problem ousting Lysa and LF at that point and installing Harrold Hardyng immediately.  So it's imperative to live that lie as if it were the truth.   

I can see LF as occasionally having secret sex with Lysa in KL to keep her on the hook with promises of "someday."  Obviously by LF instructing her to poison Jon in KL and with him probably providing the Tears of Lys, they have had secret meetings at least a few times.  For fearful Lysa to take such a risk, I'm sure he had to sweeten the deal to assure her they would be together.  Lysa can be extremely petulant and demanding by her insistence on marrying and having sex the very night she arrives on the Fingers, which he eventually acquiesced to out of necessity.  Remember Lysa essentially raped an extremely drunk Petyr at RR.  She's not one to take no for an answer.  She's the one who convinced Jon to bring him to KL from Gulltown.  I'm sure she also helped him ascend to master of coin eventually.  It would be consistent with her character to push for sex while he needs her help in KL.  While this conversation is about sending an assassin for Dany, LF has a curious analogy for it:

Quote

Littlefinger was the last. As Ned looked to him, Lord Petyr stifled a yawn. "When you find yourself in bed with an ugly woman, the best thing to do is close your eyes and get on with it," he declared. "Waiting won't make the maid any prettier. Kiss her and be done with it."

"Kiss her?" Ser Barristan repeated, aghast.

"A steel kiss," said Littlefinger.

Just get it done and over with.  It's almost like LF is affirming to himself that this will end in a steel kiss, so suck it up for now. 

Petyr eating the seed is a powerful symbolic image, as pomegranates have strong sexual connotations.  We also saw something like this before with Cersei:

Quote

She wanted to see if it would be as easy with a woman as it had always been with Robert. Ten thousand of your children perished in my palm, Your Grace, she thought, slipping a third finger into Myr. Whilst you snored, I would lick your sons off my face and fingers one by one, all those pale sticky princes. You claimed your rights, my lord, but in the darkness I would eat your heirs. Taena gave a shudder. She gasped some words in a foreign tongue, then shuddered again and arched her back and screamed. She sounds as if she is being gored, the queen thought. For a moment she let herself imagine that her fingers were a bore's tusks, ripping the Myrish woman apart from groin to throat.

:eek:  No doubt Robert would force himself on Cersei, but everytime she would devour his heirs.  The boar tusk reference to Robert's death is kinda like the promise that one day this will end with a "steel kiss" no?  There's the parallels of the unwanted sex that must be borne, but the secret destruction of the heirs.  Black haired heirs Cersei cannot allow to exist that would expose her infidelity as well as her taking vengeance against Robert.  We have the bastard children being passed off as Robert's children.  Cersei must live the lie that these children are Robert's.  Her position as regent depends on it.  Except with Littlefinger, he wouldn't feel anything for his own flesh.  He prefers the pretend bastard daughter he imagines he had with Cat and desires to place her in the Arryn seat.  There's some parallels here, but with a few twists.         

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36 minutes ago, Lady Dacey said:

Blond and brown doesn't make black. When it comes to hair color it's extremely unlikely for the offspring to have darker hair then both parents.

Hair color is more complex than that. I know of black haired couples who had red-haired children. Sometimes African-American couples have a red-haired child. And no, it's not because of a "red haired stranger." Hair color in ASOIAF seems to be most significant for the Lannisters (pure gold, except in many of the cousins) and Baratheons (black always breeds true). Oh, and the Weasleys are always red-haired.

23 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Sweet Robin I have to say is bitter dissapoint for anyone to be a father to. If Petry were to care such a thing as legacy, Sweetrobin wouldn't be something he'd leave behind; if he only cares of increasing his own power he'd surely sacrifice his son.

This will come as a shock to Sweetrobin's many fans, who consider him a wonderful little guy, a true Winged Knight; the Falcon Lord, and more politically astute than our dear Sansa.  ;-)  And not annoying or spoiled or whiny at all! But then, none of them are our Littlefinger, are they? You are probably right. Baelish is young enough (early 30s, at most) to have lots of shots left in him, and bootstrapping himself up to where he can pick any woman he wants to breed with. Sansa, as a Catelyn surrogate, may be just what he has in mind. He's no doubt already worked out how it can be done without diminishing her value as a marriage commodity.

Spoiler

That gigantic, towering mountain of a "lemon cake" in the Sansa TWOW chapter was truly disgusting. The medieval equivalence of texting a groin shot.

 

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Am I the only one who thought Jon Arryn and the Blackfish were a cute couple?

It goes unsaid, but may have explained a lot...

Why Brynden didn’t want a wife.

Why Holster didn’t attend the Tourney at Harrenhall.

Why it took two weddings and a funeral to get the Tullys in on the Northern Alliance during Robert’s Rebelion. Even after Brandon’s death.

Why the Blackfish went to serve in the Vale.

Also this might belong on the foreshadowing post...

Quote

 

Catelyn shifted uneasily in her seat. "The dwarf is here, and not by choice. Chains or no, he is my prisoner. Lysa will want him to answer for his crimes no less than I. It was her own lord husband the Lannisters murdered, and her own letter that first warned us against them."
 
Brynden Blackfish gave her a weary smile. "I hope you are right, child," he sighed, in tones that said she was wrong.

 

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20 minutes ago, zandru said:

Hair color is more complex than that. I know of black haired couples who had red-haired children. Sometimes African-American couples have a red-haired child. And no, it's not because of a "red haired stranger." Hair color in ASOIAF seems to be most significant for the Lannisters (pure gold, except in many of the cousins) and Baratheons (black always breeds true). Oh, and the Weasleys are always red-haired.

Hair color is plenty complex, I know. All the situations you described are indeed possible. A kid with hair darker than both parents is probably not. I have discussed about hair color at length on this thread, you might find it interesting:

all in all, I believe GRRM's genetics is a typical case of "art major biology": it's mostly real world stuff with some poetic license where he needs it. 

 

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24 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Am I he only one who thought Jon Arryn and the Blackfish were a cute couple?

It goes unsaid, but may have explained a lot...

Also this might belong on the foreshadowing post...

Wow, that "tone" of the Blackfish can be read in a totally different light is hindsight right? Amazing. Another thing I had missed. Thanks.

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Would LF risk everything to have sex with Lysa? Either in the Vale or KL this would be very very risky and for what reason would LF risk such a thing?. 

If Sweet Robin is in fact LF child and he was conceived in KL perhaps Varys knows the truth, I believe Varys has numerous info on LF that would have LF head on a pike but Varys needs LF alive because he realises LF is good at causing chaos which is exactly what Varys wants. 

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28 minutes ago, Stormking902 said:

Would LF risk everything to have sex with Lysa? Either in the Vale or KL this would be very very risky and for what reason would LF risk such a thing?. 

If Sweet Robin is in fact LF child and he was conceived in KL perhaps Varys knows the truth, I believe Varys has numerous info on LF that would have LF head on a pike but Varys needs LF alive because he realises LF is good at causing chaos which is exactly what Varys wants. 

The episode with Dontos showed that Petyr knew how to avoid Varys’s little birds, and even that Littlefinger could outfox the spider. 

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29 minutes ago, Stormking902 said:

Would LF risk everything to have sex with Lysa? Either in the Vale or KL this would be very very risky and for what reason would LF risk such a thing?. 

Another way to pose the question could be: would Littlefinger risk losing Lysa's "alliance" (devotion) by not having sex with her? 

He was able to convince her to kill her husband. He was probably planning to marry her and become lord or the Erye all along. Having sex with her might have been necessary to manipulate her.

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I always thought Robin was Littlefinger's son because of his size.  Littlefinger was by his own account a small boy.  Lysa implies that she and Peter were having an ongoing affair, so there is the possibility, but without DNA testing we shall never know definitively.

I also wondered if Robin's medical conditions were genetic, weak seed or if they may have been brought on in part by Lysa breastfeeding him way too long.

 

 

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