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Littlefinger Sired Sweetrobin


Lost Melnibonean

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20 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

I’m not sure if this is based on science or fiction.

Science. Unlike the earlier "pomegranate proof".

21 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

usually the big kid turns into the big man, ditto the little sickly kid.

"Usually" is the key. I've seen otherwise enough times. Robert's health and height are not definitive.

22 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

I consider this likely one of those details we will likely only see hinted at, not proven, and left to the readers to make up their own mind.

Could be! At this point, it seems like the most reasonable position. But argue on!

14 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

The Lords Declarant will not be pleased by the sight of my bastard daughter prancing about in my dead wife's clothes. Choose something else. Need I remind you to avoid sky blue and cream?

Littlefinger is not referring to "cream" as a foodstuff or pancake (lemon cake??) makeup here - he's naming the Arryn colours.

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20 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

We’ve gotten sidetracked... probably due to our fields of work...

sorry about the link, a google search of “opiod breast feeding oxford” turns up a number of articles... the first was what I was trying to cite.

But fundamentally, of course high levels (especially sustained over the long term) of opioids will effect neonatal development. And more importantly this isn’t the place for us to give or debate medical advise.

cheers

Abuse drugs are conterindicated during lactation, no discussion. I really wasn't giving or debating medical advice, but discussing the specific fiction situation of Lysa Tully and her breastfed child. As I said, I don't think it's likely that there's any druging involved. I've given my reasons for such belief. We'll have to wait and see though. 

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38 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Nice work.

To the bold, this reminds me of the many iterations of caesarean sections (or the near like) we have in the story. Some of those stories have to do with the sword doing the cutting as well. Even Lancel spilling his seed on Cersei's belly is a literary form of this theme.

Would you care to expand on that or provide a link? I'm really interested!! 

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1 hour ago, ravenous reader said:

By the time of his cryptic deathbed monologue, he had figured out he wasn't!  We're told the seed of old men is 'weak'; ergo, 'strong seed' must be derived from someone younger.  

Jon is talking about Robert's children there, not his own son. And the Durrandon-Baratheon seed isn't strong because Robert was a young guy, but because it is, apparently, somewhat 'magical'.

Lysa also interpreted the whole 'the seed is strong' line of her dying husband as a blessing for her son Robert. It doesn't make a lot of sense that she would think the dying Jon would have some special insight into the future of a child which wasn't his seed, and then blessing said child with an odd phrase referring to his own seed.

Not even Lysa is as deranged as that.

But the real reason why I'm not really buying this as a verifiable truth within the framework of the story - the idea of an uncertain parentage with either Jon or Petyr being the biological father could be possible, I think - is twofold:

1. The narrative potential of this plot idea isn't utilized or hinted at at all, at least at this point in the story. And there would have been so many opportunities for this - Lysa's fear that Jon might find out the truth as another part of her motivation to kill him (giving Littlefinger an additional motive, too), people actually noting the resemblance between Petyr and Robert after Littlefinger arrived at the Eyrie, the powerful potential of Littlefinger using 'their son Robert' as a reason why he would never betray Lysa at the end of ASoS, etc. If George had thought of this possibility he would have hinted at in AGoT and ASoS in some way.

2. Littlefinger's own feelings towards Robert are little more than disgust. The boy is only a pawn to him, something that would most likely not be the case if he knew the brat was his child. He could then being torn between fatherly affection for and disgust of little Robert. He should not be so eager to decide to kill him as he is. In addition, there would also be potential for a conflict between Littlefinger and Sansa there. Right now Sansa helps to murder her cousin. If she knew that Littlefinger was actually capable of murdering his own child this should really cause her to second-guess his motivation and plans.

The idea that this whole thing could still come out (assuming it is true) is very unlikely at this point. Lysa is dead, and Littlefinger is not going to tell anyone. And he also wouldn't have told people like Kettleblack or Brune about stuff like that.

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28 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

However, recently I have been wondering if Lysa was not poisoning herself, maybe unknowingly, with the makeup and clothes she wears. I

That's a novel idea I really like. Lysa is often described wearing make up, I recall no other woman that is shown to us like that... lead poisoning from face powder was really a thing in the past (so sad). And it would be nice not to have another woman go mad because they can't cope with circumstances. We have enough of that in the story already. 

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20 minutes ago, zandru said:

Science. Unlike the earlier "pomegranate proof".

Right.  You're doing 'science'; that's why you're applying your wits to a work of fantasy by a gardener not an architect.  Good luck with the randomized controlled trial!

GRRM does not give you 'proofs' with any statistical precision; he gives you playful hints as you swirl around in the kaleidoscope of dreams-- and that's all you're ever going to receive.

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12 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

applying your wits to a work of fantasy

How can you possibly denigrate this when that's exactly what everybody here is doing, particularly yourself? And you were dismissing my comments on openly available reproductive facts, with a sneer no less. While at the same time agreeing that Petyr Baelish eating a pomegranate with his knife in front of Sansa Lannister is proof that he effed Lysa back in King's Landing.

Seriously, I'll stick to science. The lit crit is just too airy for me. Airy - clearly a subtle reference to The Aery! And Arryn! Okay, I'm done.

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2 hours ago, Lady Dacey said:

That's a novel idea I really like. Lysa is often described wearing make up, I recall no other woman that is shown to us like that... lead poisoning from face powder was really a thing in the past (so sad). And it would be nice not to have another woman go mad because they can't cope with circumstances. We have enough of that in the story already. 

Yeah, I think it is only Lysa who wears make up in the current story. I looked and looked and only ever found some obscure references to a select, random culture over in Essos, but I cannot remember who they are at the moment.

2 hours ago, Lady Dacey said:

Would you care to expand on that or provide a link? I'm really interested!! 

Um minuto, por favor...

@Lady Dacey here is a link to one of the discussions. This is one my own comments I found, but you can see it starts just before this and goes on after. Maybe I will bump it with your name tagged if anyone else wants to read and comment there.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/145696-lyanna-stark-a-gift-from-old-gods/&do=findComment&comment=7905927

There was another discussion about this topic in another thread as well, but I am still looking for it.

 

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14 hours ago, zandru said:

Science. Unlike the earlier "pomegranate proof".

Just wanted to add some more science; While mutations accumulate with age, making a child of older parents more susceptible to problems, having an older men as your father may actually be beneficial in some ways; Older men have longer telomeres in their sperms. Telomeres are the noncoding repetetive sequences at the ends of chromosomes that protects the coding parts. With each cell division(DNA replication), you lose some telomeres which is then replaced by telomerase. However, in somatic cells there are usually aren't enough telomerase so you end up losing telomere length anyway, albeit at a slower pace then with no telomerase.

14 hours ago, zandru said:

"Usually" is the key. I've seen otherwise enough times. Robert's health and height are not definitive.

Absolutely. Even in the series we have examples. Thoug not exactly the same thing, one that comes to mind is Garlan who was plump but is now tall with broad shoulders.

 

As for Robyn's parentage let's get a look into his relatives, actual and possible.

Robyn: Brown haired with no description of eye color.

Hoster Tully : Brown hair and blue eyes.

Lysa Tully: Auburn hair and blue eyes.

Jon Arryn: No description of hair or eye color.

Petyr Baelish: Dark hair and grey-green eyes.

Alayne Stone: Dark Brown hair and blue eyes.

 

From memory, only time we get to learn what color is dark hair is Rattleshirt, who is first described as dark haired and then brown haired.

So while I don't buy into the theory, Petyr may be a father to brown haired Robyn with having Brown hair himself and a Brown haired daughter. However, I believe Robyn has some Arryn features we aren't told of, or else Jon may have found out about it, after all, he is the guy that finds Cersei's children aren't from Robert. If Sweetrobyn had none of his features while suspiciously having some features that are reminiscent of his wife's favorite Vale vassal, Jon would understand.

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16 hours ago, Lady Dacey said:

I wrote this a while ago:

Provoking an abortion after the first trimester can result in very serious consequences. Because she actually wanted to have the baby it's very likely she was hiding the pregnancy from her father until it was impossible not to notice, resulting in a late abortion. Hoster mentions a lot of blood. An early miscariage usually is like a heavy flow and some cramping and that's it. Not very noteworthy. A late abortion may take full labour, contractions, hemorrhages, the birth of a fetus (living or dead), placenta delivery... it's a very sad and traumatizing thing to go through or witness. Very dangerous too. Specially before courettage was possible and "remainings" (much more commom in miscarriages than actual delivery of a full-term child) would become infected.

This is not precisely relevant to this scenario. Late abortions are irrelevant here. From Cat's evidence the girls were intimate enough to know when each was having her period, but Cat never even knew Lysa had been pregnant. Nor does she remember Lysa complaining about any gynaecological problem, nor anything to indicate an infection which (iirc) is the main driver of infertility following abortion. Lysa felt healthy, beautiful and joyful on her wedding day, and probably she was.

16 hours ago, Lady Dacey said:

Also, Lysa was able to conceive but not the carry a prengnancy to term. She had at least five pregnancies that ended up in miscarriages. That is a very strong indicative the problem was in her uterus, not in her eggs or her cycling or her hormones and definetely NOT in Jon Arryn's sperm. 

Outside my area of sure knowledge, but I have heard experts say that miscarriage has many possible causes, and even now is not fully understood. Lysa's uterus was good enough for SR at least.
 
Also, you can't jump from saying a thing can happen, to saying it definitely did happen; that's not a fair argument. Lysa could be infertile, but the probability of this is low, as I argued above. Jon Arryn's fertility could be fine, but his record says probably not.

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1 hour ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Just wanted to add some more science;

Yay, more science please! :) Seems to me a lot of research is about finding repeatable patterns in a mass of data. Sounds a perfect fit to me. With the proviso that grrm is busily hiding his tracks and making mistakes. :huh: Even so, the patterns are there.

1 hour ago, Corvo the Crow said:

While mutations accumulate with age, making a child of older parents more susceptible to problems, having an older men as your father may actually be beneficial in some ways; Older men have longer telomeres in their sperms. Telomeres are the noncoding repetetive sequences at the ends of chromosomes that protects the coding parts. With each cell division(DNA replication), you lose some telomeres which is then replaced by telomerase. However, in somatic cells there are usually aren't enough telomerase so you end up losing telomere length anyway, albeit at a slower pace then with no telomerase.

There again, I heard recent advice that younger fathers had a better chance at healthy offspring. That's the trouble with living in the information age, you get expert opinion coming at you from all sides.

I suppose the benefits of longer teleromes are still being researched...

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23 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

There again, I heard recent advice that younger fathers had a better chance at healthy offspring. That's the trouble with living in the information age, you get expert opinion coming at you from all sides.

I suppose the benefits of longer teleromes are still being researched...

Well, as I said, mutations accumulate with age.However, if a certain (Ygon :P)old father has fewer mutations that would cause problems by chance then the offspring he had at his old age may live a longer life than the ones he sired when he was young.

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3 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Outside my area of sure knowledge, but I have heard experts say that miscarriage has many possible causes, and even now is not fully understood. Lysa's uterus was good enough for SR at least.
 
 

There are also miscarriages in some instances of embryos with abnormalities. So much for Jon Arryn's seed being strong I guess.

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51 minutes ago, Vaedys Targaryen said:

Afraid you're late for the party, the theory that Littlefinger is Sweet Robin's real father is pretty old.

From the OP...  

Quote

I had always resisted this theory before, thinking that Lysa meant that all six of the pregnancies mentioned above were Jon’s, but I can see now that doesn’t necessarily follow. She says Jon could not give her children. That this follows the bit about Petyr loosening a seed earlier in the same chapter has caused me to change my mind about this theory.

But thanks for reiterating for others that this is an old theory. 

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4 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

From the OP...  

But thanks for reiterating for others that this is an old theory. 

I didn't mean to be rude to the OP, I was simply stating that the theory they pointed out is very old. Perhaps I should've used a different figure of speach.

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7 minutes ago, Vaedys Targaryen said:

I didn't mean to be rude to the OP, I was simply stating that the theory they pointed out is very old. Perhaps I should've used a different figure of speach.

I'm sure the OP will get over it. He's pretty laid back. And very good looking too. 

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On whether sickly, undersized little boys are condemned to becoming small sickly men...

As a boy, my younger (by 2 years) brother was asthmatic, allergic to everything, afflicted with chronic bronchitis, and sick all the time. One of my early memories is visiting him in the hospital. During his Kindergarten year, he missed all but 30 days of school. Adults around us talked about our uncle, who caught malaria as a teenager (British Army, south Asia), living the rest of his life as a sunken-chested chronically ill man. The doctors agreed - my brother would become a small and sickly man. Today, there is no dangerous place I wouldn't go with my brother at my side. he's 6'4" (over 2 meters) and the physically imposing sort of man that people do not mess with. 

There's hope for Sweet Robin.

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