tyrrel demands

[Alex Gu]

what would you have demanded as mace tyrrel from lanisters to support them against stanis or Robb after the assassination of renly?

I would demand some of the crownland house become part of the reach, a minimum of a million dragons and marriage of Joffrey to Margaery or threaten to support stark or stanis and split the westernland  with reach take half and Riverlands take another half of westernlands after lanisters lose the war .

 

[divica]

I would have aligned with stannis and demanded casterly rock or the IT debt to the lannisters to become a debt to the tyrels...

[Stormking902]

I would have demanded half the Riverlands as compensation and the Lannisters can keep the other half, other then that the Tyrell already have a great deal there daughter becomes queen and there grandson king. Not bad for up jumped stewards................

[LindsayLohan]

Well, considering they married Margaery to Joff, put a Tyrell in the Kingsguard, and absorbed the entirety of Brightwater Keep and all of its lands (for Garlan), I'd say the Tyrells made out pretty well. 

[Jon Fossoway]

I doubt that Mace Tyrell had the authority or the charisma to rally Houses from other regions to his army. Besides, his standing army is huge, as Renly's and later the one arriving at King's Landing proved to be. And in any case, his House challenged the Crown. 

Now, IF he had to ask for outer help, I don't think he'd get more than other region's cannon fodder, as the Cracklaw Point Houses and the sort. The Westerlands seem too unified behind the Lannisters to even consider aiding poor ol' former traitor Mace.

 

[Dorian Martell's son]

16 hours ago, Alex Gu said:

what would you have demanded as mace tyrrel from lanisters to support them against stanis or Robb after the assassination of renly?

I would demand some of the crownland house become part of the reach, a minimum of a million dragons and marriage of Joffrey to Margaery or threaten to support stark or stanis and split the westernland  with reach take half and Riverlands take another half of westernlands after lanisters lose the war .

Well, if I was being written by GRRM I imagine that I would have demanded the same things as the Tyrells in the book 

[John Suburbs]

17 hours ago, Alex Gu said:

what would you have demanded as mace tyrrel from lanisters to support them against stanis or Robb after the assassination of renly?

I would demand some of the crownland house become part of the reach, a minimum of a million dragons and marriage of Joffrey to Margaery or threaten to support stark or stanis and split the westernland  with reach take half and Riverlands take another half of westernlands after lanisters lose the war .

 

Tywin is not without some leverage here. He has Joffrey on the Iron Throne. With Renly out of the picture, the Tyrells either have to support one of the remaining kings or try to put one of their own on the IT. Stannis is a non-starter, given that Loras has vowed to kill him, so that leaves Robb, Joffrey or a Tyrell. Robb is sworn to a Frey, so supporting him would not boost Highgarden's status in any appreciable way.

The only viable option was Joffrey. Not only would he make a suitable match for Margaery, thus cementing the Tyrell link to the IT, but their combined armies would be certain to defeat Stannis at the Blackwater -- and they had the means to get there quickly and unobtrusively.

[Livesundersink]

On 1/17/2018 at 7:05 AM, John Suburbs said:

Robb is sworn to a Frey, so supporting him would not boost Highgarden's status in any appreciable way.

He also was not a contender for the IT. He was just the KITN, the Tyrells wanted Margaery as queen of all the seven kingdoms, so Robb would have been deemed unsuitable in their eyes and of course this is before he breaks his word to the Freys, maybe he might not have married Jeyne if he was offered Margaery and the 50,000 men her father will bring to the table, who knows?

[cpg2016]

On 1/16/2018 at 4:05 PM, John Suburbs said:

Tywin is not without some leverage here. He has Joffrey on the Iron Throne. With Renly out of the picture, the Tyrells either have to support one of the remaining kings or try to put one of their own on the IT.

No they don't.  They can sit out the main war, which is what nearly half the realm does.  Balon does his own thing, and the Martells and the Arryns also stay out of it, so not participating after Renly's death is very much an option, since no matter who wins, that coalition won't have the ability to take down the Reach.

[John Suburbs]

49 minutes ago, cpg2016 said:

No they don't.  They can sit out the main war, which is what nearly half the realm does.  Balon does his own thing, and the Martells and the Arryns also stay out of it, so not participating after Renly's death is very much an option, since no matter who wins, that coalition won't have the ability to take down the Reach.

True, but that is only an option if you want little or no influence over the post-war political situation. Highgarden has been the hegemon in the kingdom for thousands of years, and they saw how Casterly Rock was able to gain power at their expense following Roberts Rebellion, so remaining passive now isn't a winning strategy, especially considering they still have the single largest army in the field.

[cpg2016]

5 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

True, but that is only an option if you want little or no influence over the post-war political situation. 

The Tyrells will have significant influence no matter what, because they're still the power in the realm.  I think Mace is actually foolish for backing anyone after Renly's death, as every reward being offered would exist after the war was over, since the Reach was the most powerful kingdom to begin with, and the losses suffered by almost every other player makes them only relatively more powerful.  Look at the Martells... they do jack shit, and get a royal marriage, a Small Council seat, and significant influence at court.  Until you explain that, there is no compelling reason to argue Mace couldn't have done the same.  

5 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Highgarden has been the hegemon in the kingdom for thousands of years

This is not true.  First off, the Kingdom has only EXISTED for 300 years, and the Tyrells have most certainly not been a hegemon.  Quite the opposite, the Tyrells struggle more than almost any other Lord Paramount to marshal their full nominal forces.  And while the Reach may be the most powerful individual kingdom, they cannot exploit that, because the other kingdoms together can crush the Reach (as happens again and again pre-Targaryen, and as we see in Robert's Rebellion).

5 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

so remaining passive now isn't a winning strategy, especially considering they still have the single largest army in the field.

This is exactly why they should remain passive.  No matter who wins, they need the Reach to secure and enforce their peace.  Even Stannis, arch-legalist he is, understands this.  Remaining passive is the best possible strategy, as the big winners in the War of the Five Kings are the Martells and the Arryns, who gain a ton of political power for sacrificing nothing, and a ton of money by not being involved in the war, respectively.

Long story short, the major Houses who sit the war come out just fine.  Yes, the Tyrells find themselves as the arbiters of power in the capital right now, but this is a situation that would have happened anyway, because the realpolitik of the Seven Kingdoms demands that you either have the Reach, or a strong coalition; you know that the Lannisters and Baratheons won't have that coalition, and more importantly they know it, so they'll have to court the Tyrells no matter what

[John Suburbs]

22 hours ago, cpg2016 said:

The Tyrells will have significant influence no matter what, because they're still the power in the realm.  I think Mace is actually foolish for backing anyone after Renly's death, as every reward being offered would exist after the war was over, since the Reach was the most powerful kingdom to begin with, and the losses suffered by almost every other player makes them only relatively more powerful.  Look at the Martells... they do jack shit, and get a royal marriage, a Small Council seat, and significant influence at court.  Until you explain that, there is no compelling reason to argue Mace couldn't have done the same.  

Sure, they'll have influence, but unless they are willing to fight they'll have no leverage with which to wield that influence. At the end of the war, someone will be in control of King's Landing, and that someone will decide who gets to be the next king. At that point, the Tyrells can either accept that decision or march on KL to get one more to their liking. Maybe it will just be the Lannisters or Stannis they face, or maybe it will be a combined force of, say, northmen and Vale or Lannisters and Dorne. By siding with the Lannisters now, the Tyrells all but ensure that there will be a young king available for Margaery, whereas all other options basically eliminate that possibility.

 

22 hours ago, cpg2016 said:

This is not true.  First off, the Kingdom has only EXISTED for 300 years, and the Tyrells have most certainly not been a hegemon.  Quite the opposite, the Tyrells struggle more than almost any other Lord Paramount to marshal their full nominal forces.  And while the Reach may be the most powerful individual kingdom, they cannot exploit that, because the other kingdoms together can crush the Reach (as happens again and again pre-Targaryen, and as we see in Robert's Rebellion).

Being the most powerful individual kingdom is the very definition of hegemon. The Reach is clearly the hegemon in the region and remained so even after the Tyrells bowed to the Targaryens. The combined Tyrell/Gardner-Hightower-Redwyne alliance has ensured that Highgarden is able to field an army that dwarfs any other single realm, and this has been the case for thousands of years. The only way Highgarden loses is through the combined efforts of multiple realms or through gross negligence on the part of leaders like Garth Greybeard. Highgarden was most definitely not "crushed" during Robert's Rebellion, in fact, it suffered virtually no losses at all and won the only serious engagement it entered, at Ashford.

Being on the losing side, of course, the Tyrells gained none of the spoils handed out by the winners, and in fact was stripped of lands as a condition of accepting Robert's peace. This is what happens to houses that do not back the winning side. If Highgarden had simply sat out the Wot5K, they might not have lost anything, but they certainly aren't going to gain anything at the expense of houses that risked all. That's the way it works.

23 hours ago, cpg2016 said:

This is exactly why they should remain passive.  No matter who wins, they need the Reach to secure and enforce their peace.  Even Stannis, arch-legalist he is, understands this.  Remaining passive is the best possible strategy, as the big winners in the War of the Five Kings are the Martells and the Arryns, who gain a ton of political power for sacrificing nothing, and a ton of money by not being involved in the war, respectively.

Long story short, the major Houses who sit the war come out just fine.  Yes, the Tyrells find themselves as the arbiters of power in the capital right now, but this is a situation that would have happened anyway, because the realpolitik of the Seven Kingdoms demands that you either have the Reach, or a strong coalition; you know that the Lannisters and Baratheons won't have that coalition, and more importantly they know it, so they'll have to court the Tyrells no matter what

Lol, if the Tyrells did not come to Tywin's aid then Stannis would have taken King's Landing and every Lannister except perhaps Tommen would be dead, and he would be in exile. There is also a very good chance that Stannis and Robb would then crush the Lannister army, with Robb bending the knee to Stannis, since he (Robb) does not want to be king anyway. So I fail to see how the Tyrells would emerge as the arbiters of power in that case. Mace would be lucky to keep his head even after he bends the knee; he would most certainly lose even more lands and there would be no chance of putting a Tyrell on the Iron Throne.

What, exactly, have the Arryns gained by sitting idle? They have just what they started with: the Vale. The Martells have Myrcella and a seat on the small council. Pretty good, but hardly the influence you get by marrying the king. And again, both of these things were the result of aligning with Tywin -- there was just no need to commit any swords to the conflict once the Tyrell deal was made.

Aligning with the Lannisters was the only viable option for the Tyrells. It all but ensured victory and provided the only path to achieving ultimate political power in the land: a Tyrell king sitting the Iron Throne.

 

[Lord Lannister]

Be it the Queen of Thorns moving pieces on the board, or Mace being more cunning than he lets on and the oaf being an act, the Tyrells have played the situation brilliantly as is. Constantly slicing off another piece of the pie, one at a time as not to appear too demanding. Just like in the rebellion, they positioned themselves as to reap the benefits without any real cost. If it works they're ahead of the game, if not they dip their banners and try again another time while the Reach takes comparatively light casualties. As things stand now, with Cersei shamed and Kevan dead, Mace is Hand of the King and all he needs to do to become regent is place an appropriate order in front of Tommen to seal.

[Ralphis Baratheon]

The Tyrells got what they wanted in the end. Margaery a queen married to a boy king who she can manipulate with her pussy cats. 

[One-eyed Misbehavin]

6 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

The Tyrells got what they wanted in the end. Margaery a queen married to a boy king who she can manipulate with her pussy cats. 

 stop it. You're too cool for school 

[One-eyed Misbehavin]

IMHO  when they suggested ( demanded )  that Brightwater keep go to a second son (   Meanwhile Eliminating a huge rival with a great claim to  highgarden itself )  then they  pretty much had buggered the crown  as much as possible  for the time being.

Tyrion himself  even acknowledges  that Garlan  was elevated to a high lord  instantaneously.  I like the guy  but there's absolutely no reason or no circumstance  that the Tyrell's absorb the entirety of Bright water and it's incomes.

 And before anyone justifies the Tyrell's  I know that (most of) the Florents  rebelled against the crown  all I'm saying is I think if you were of the mind to strip them of their castle,  it should've went to anyone besides the Tyrells ( and I also know that the Tyrell's are there leige lord ) 

 It just makes no sense morally,  strategically, or practicality 

 

[The Sunland Lord]

They got all what they wanted, since they aren't protesting about anything. 

It's just that they couldn't ask about Tommen being king instead of Joffrey, so they made it so themselves. Some things you demand, some things you just do.

[Darth Sidious]

On 1/15/2018 at 10:24 PM, Alex Gu said:

what would you have demanded as mace tyrrel from lanisters to support them against stanis or Robb after the assassination of renly?

I would demand some of the crownland house become part of the reach, a minimum of a million dragons and marriage of Joffrey to Margaery or threaten to support stark or stanis and split the westernland  with reach take half and Riverlands take another half of westernlands after lanisters lose the war .

 

Hey Alex.  It's not that simple.  There are prejudices and preferences involved.  The Tyrells never wanted Stannis on the throne and they will not support any Stark whose ambition it is to rule over them.  The Starks are First Men who worship the Old Gods.  I wager, not the kind of boss the Tyrells would want.  The Tyrells were looking for a new boss and they want Margery to marry the new boss.  It is one thing to marry Loras to a Stark but quite a different matter to pick a Stark to be your next boss.  

I don't have much to back it up but I think the Tyrells have never lost their loyalty to the Targaryens.  They will be ready to support their restoration should one with a chance to win come knocking.  But they're not stupid.  They won't risk themselves for somebody who doesn't already have a big army backing them up.

[Bernie Mac]

18 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

 

Lol, if the Tyrells did not come to Tywin's aid then Stannis would have taken King's Landing and every Lannister except perhaps Tommen would be dead, and he would be in exile.

While that is true, that was only because Tywin had left Harrenhal and (possibly) would not have reached the Red Keep in time before it was taken. Something that was not known at the time of negotiation so hardly something the Tyrells can use as a negotiation tool. 

Tywin had enough strength to defeat one of Stannis or Robb but he never would have brought peace to the kingdom without further support and may have even lost the kingdom after having beaten Robb/Stannis and being confronted with the other enemy. 

 

The Tyrells absolutely have reason to want to get involved. 

 

1. Mace wants his daughter to be Queen
2. The Tyrells and Redwynes heavily dislike Stannis who has a reputation, whether it is true or not, of not being able to let things go
3. The Tyrells do not want to see the Florents, their biggest rivals gain even greater legitimacy and influence
4. They don't want Joffrey and Tommen to die and for the Dornish controlled Myrcella to become Queen
5. They don't want the option of Tywin beating Stannis and making a similar kind of compromise to the one Lord Florent was suggesting (Tommen marrying Shireen)
6. They want to gain more lands. 

 

 

 

[John Suburbs]

6 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

While that is true, that was only because Tywin had left Harrenhal and (possibly) would not have reached the Red Keep in time before it was taken. Something that was not known at the time of negotiation so hardly something the Tyrells can use as a negotiation tool. 

Tywin had enough strength to defeat one of Stannis or Robb but he never would have brought peace to the kingdom without further support and may have even lost the kingdom after having beaten Robb/Stannis and being confronted with the other enemy. 

 

The Tyrells absolutely have reason to want to get involved. 

 

1. Mace wants his daughter to be Queen
2. The Tyrells and Redwynes heavily dislike Stannis who has a reputation, whether it is true or not, of not being able to let things go
3. The Tyrells do not want to see the Florents, their biggest rivals gain even greater legitimacy and influence
4. They don't want Joffrey and Tommen to die and for the Dornish controlled Myrcella to become Queen
5. They don't want the option of Tywin beating Stannis and making a similar kind of compromise to the one Lord Florent was suggesting (Tommen marrying Shireen)
6. They want to gain more lands. 

 

 

 

Exactly. This is why I'm saying that aligning with the Lannisters was their only viable option at this point. The last thing they would want to do is just sit tight for the rest of the war, let the chips fall where they may, and hope they are tossed a few crumbs by the new king.

The Lannisters offered the only path for the Tyrells to get the best prize in the game: a grandson sitting the Iron Throne some day.