AlaskanSandman Posted January 16, 2018 Author Share Posted January 16, 2018 6 minutes ago, Lollygag said: Oh geez lol All i can say is im sorry your so offended Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlaskanSandman Posted January 16, 2018 Author Share Posted January 16, 2018 This has nothing to do with stereo typing people and or hobbies or interest lol id kindly ask that that kind of talk is taken else where and this will be the last i address that. This is merely a hypothetical question based on certain other parallels in the story made else where and trying to apply them and think out side the box. So every little thing that may be evidence for a parallel to Loras and Renly is not based on any stereo typing of people and or hobbies. Yes Martin does include plenty of people who are typical to their type. Sam being fat and bookish and not into swords, or Tyrion being short and stunted and unable to fight and thus into books, Rhaegar is neither fat, stunted, nor unable to fight. Let's please try to keep this non political or any of that, please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lollygag Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 4 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said: Oh geez lol All i can say is im sorry your so offended I wouldn't say offended. I grew up in a place which was happily relatively free from the "you're a boy/girl thus you're only allowed to have certain interests" nonsense, so it really stands out to me when I see it. Football players in drama club, prom queens kicking hiney in sports, it was all cool. My point is that GRRM isn't using a character's interests to make a statement about their preferences thus it doesn't prove anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlaskanSandman Posted January 16, 2018 Author Share Posted January 16, 2018 1 minute ago, Lollygag said: I wouldn't say offended. I grew up in a place which was happily relatively free from the "you're a boy/girl thus you're only allowed to have certain interests" nonsense, so it really stands out to me when I see it. Football players in drama club, prom queens kicking hiney in sports, it was all cool. Ok. Cool. This isn't a look at whether or not Rhaegar's interest in hobbies or sexual preferences are social political issues that need to be addressed on whether or not they are stereo types based on modern perceptions or views. So i just want to be clear on that as your message repeated and banged on the issues of his interest alone as an issue. When it's a general look at his parallels to Loras or Renly. I have gay family and friends and will sooner just block you than be bated into a conversation of that degree. As a respect to you, me, and every body else reading this. Lets not go there. Please and thank you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlaskanSandman Posted January 16, 2018 Author Share Posted January 16, 2018 8 minutes ago, Lollygag said: My point is that GRRM isn't using a character's interests to make a statement about their preferences thus it doesn't prove anything. To point though, forgive me for making clear on that first though. I agree that this is an out there idea as a lot of people except Rheagar to be a straight man has he has two kids already and gave flowers to another. Yet this is the same thing that happens in the real world too, something Martin is keen to. Loras and Renly are clear examples of breaking those "Stereo Types" as you want to think of them. Loras is a bad ass warrior that is everything a person thinks a Knight should be nearly. Renly is big, strong, and handsome like his brother Robert yet enjoys is Balls and Dances, and fancy clothes. Both men can fight, but one is way better. Yet both men are thought of by some mistakenly to be straight men and Loras and Renly are forced to hide their love. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlaskanSandman Posted January 16, 2018 Author Share Posted January 16, 2018 1 hour ago, Ralphis Baratheon said: Let's say you do go with Rhaegar as Jon father. Jon chose a handsome male prostitute(Satin) to be his personal steward. Even though it angered the NW because there were brothers more qualified and experienced for the job. Jon often describes Satin as being pretty as much as he does Val. Coincidence? Or in like many cases in the story, the son is like the father? Well there is grounds for him to be bi sexual as Oberyn Martell was and would help in doing to duty to secure and heir with Elia too. Though note on that point that Rhaenys came first, the Aegon. So aside from a possible false vision from the Undying. Rhaegar may not have been searching for a third child. Further i did a search of Jon Con's chapters and not a word of Stark, Wolf, or Lyanna from his lips when talking or thinking of Rhaegar. Im digging more but ive caught that much already Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lollygag Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 3 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said: To point though, forgive me for making clear on that first though. I agree that this is an out there idea as a lot of people except Rheagar to be a straight man has he has two kids already and gave flowers to another. Yet this is the same thing that happens in the real world too, something Martin is keen to. Loras and Renly are clear examples of breaking those "Stereo Types" as you want to think of them. Loras is a bad ass warrior that is everything a person thinks a Knight should be nearly. Renly is big, strong, and handsome like his brother Robert yet enjoys is Balls and Dances, and fancy clothes. Both men can fight, but one is way better. Yet both men are thought of by some mistakenly to be straight men and Loras and Renly are forced to hide their love. You're still assuming your own conclusion to prove your conclusion and ignoring more plausible alternatives like people just not loving their arranged-marriage spouses or that there are lots of things which might make a marriage complicated. I outlined this earlier. You've brought up a subject and then put strict parameters on anyone discussing that subject either as a political issue or just discussing the quality of the argument itself as support for the conclusion, so I'm done now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlaskanSandman Posted January 16, 2018 Author Share Posted January 16, 2018 1 minute ago, Lollygag said: You're still assuming your own conclusion to prove your conclusion and ignoring more plausible alternatives like people just not loving their arranged-marriage spouses or that there are lots of things which might make a marriage complicated. I outlined this earlier. You've brought up a subject and then put strict parameters on anyone discussing that subject either as a political issue or just discussing the quality of the argument itself as support for the conclusion, so I'm done now. No not at all, this time you brought up your point again while being more succinct and with out all the rhetoric. How am i assuming my own conclusion to prove my conclusion? What is this inception level of logic your talking about? If you havn't seen my thread on the mirrors of the Tourney's then you might want to as it helps set up some of this premise and that is where i originally posed the question in the comment section. Im not concluding anything thank you, im speculating and there is a difference. If this was a conclusion than i wouldn't phrase it as a question. As the op says, this is a hypothetical look at whether or not these narratives mirror each other. That's your choice, im just not going to get bated into turning this into something it's not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ralphis Baratheon Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 14 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said: Further i did a search of Jon Con's chapters and not a word of Stark, Wolf, or Lyanna from his lips when talking or thinking of Rhaegar. Im digging more but ive caught that much already Does he mention Dayne? Thrusting and sheathing his long, hard, pale Greatsword? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlaskanSandman Posted January 16, 2018 Author Share Posted January 16, 2018 9 minutes ago, Ralphis Baratheon said: Does he mention Dayne? Thrusting and sheathing his long, hard, pale Greatsword? Ummm, im gonna assume those are key words to search and not a sentence hahah Quote A Dance with Dragons - The Lost Lord They found the Golden Company beside the river as the sun was lowering in the west. It was a camp that even Arthur Dayne might have approved of—compact, orderly, defensible. A deep ditch had been dug around it, with sharpened stakes inside. The tents stood in rows, with broad avenues between them. The latrines had been placed beside the river, so the current would wash away the wastes. The horse lines were to the north, and beyond them, two dozen elephants grazed beside the water, pulling up reeds with their trunks. Griff glanced at the great grey beasts with approval. There is not a warhorse in all of Westeros that will stand against them. Just some great admiration for the man and his ability but then again so does every body else. Arthur was just awesome Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord of Raventree Hall Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 37 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said: This has nothing to do with stereo typing people and or hobbies or interest lol id kindly ask that that kind of talk is taken else where and this will be the last i address that. 3 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said: Rhaegar loved harp and books and only became a swords man after reading a prophecy he thought was about him. and further He is never described as a great warrior, not even by Barristan who states that he loved music and books more than killing In many ways, Rhaegar is Renly to people who don't know Renly is gay. The above quoted material are stereotypes. There are many characters that like these things that are straight. There are many real people who like these things who are straight. There are gay characters who do not like these things. There are many real people who do not like these things who are gay. Not only does this theory literally have no basis on literally anything, it is based completely on stereotypes. No suggestion. Nothing. Literally your entire supposition is based purely on stereotypes and nothing else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlaskanSandman Posted January 16, 2018 Author Share Posted January 16, 2018 7 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said: The above quoted material are stereotypes. There are many characters that like these things that are straight. There are many real people who like these things who are straight. There are gay characters who do not like these things. There are many real people who do not like these things who are gay. Not only does this theory literally have no basis on literally anything, it is based completely on stereotypes. No suggestion. Nothing. Literally your entire supposition is based purely on stereotypes and nothing else. You need to read the Op again then and focus at the bottom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorian Martell's son Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 4 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said: I know this seriously sounds crazy but think about what we know of Renly and Loras. Of Loras giving a rose to a smitten Sansa who doesn't realize that he is gay. Or Brienne who may not have realized Renly was gay at first. One is a prince, the other in the Kings Guard. The parallels are actually quite striking. His dying word was the name of a woman he fathered a son with. This was in addition to the woman he married and fathered two children with. No, he isn't gay. Fluid maybe, we have multiple instances of him loving women, and nothing of him loving men. One man seems to have been in love with him, but there is no law that says love needs to be reciprocal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ralphis Baratheon Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said: It was a camp that even Arthur Dayne might have approved of This implies he knew Arthur, and what he would and wouldn't approve of. Like he'd approve of him Rhaegar and Jon Con jousting beneath the sheets. Listen, I'll only buy into the Arthur+Rhaegar ship if you include Jon Con. He lost the Battle of the Bells, is dying of greyscale and is taking care of a kid who is most likely not his silver prince's son. He deserves it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorian Martell's son Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 4 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said: That's Barristan, not Rhaegar. Big difference. As he would be assuming along with every one else. Are you serious? Your proof that Mance went awol from the watch and went south of neck to fight at the tourney of Harrenhal is that mance sings a really popular song. We have a character who would be in a position to know information stating said information. You don't get much more than that in these books Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LynnS Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 I don't know. Some people have this perception. Ned doesn't think Rhaegar is the type to visit brothels or lust after women, so I don't know what that says other than Rhaegar wasn't unfaithful or didn't sire any bastards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elder brother jonothor dar Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 Your parallel is they where both princes who prefered not to fight and one KG who was skilled with a sword and gay, the other possibly GOAT with broad sword and best friend with the prince. The rest is speculation on your part, or am I missing something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferocious Veldt Roarer Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 7 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said: Edit - Just to be clear, these "Hobbies" are merely brought up as parallels to Loras and Renly. Nothing to do with the "hobbies them selves being a gay or straight thing". Rather think of Rhaegar as a mirror to Renly and Arthur as a mirror to Loras. Rhaegar would be the prince who fights cause he must and not because he's good at it or enjoys it, but rather enjoys art and music. Where as Loras is possibly like Arthur who are both kings guard knight's who are superb swords men. Most every other mirror for them works, so lets not be afraid to apply their love life too. (WARNING- If you chose to ignore this paragraph and attack me with accusations of which i've already covered under this paragraph. I will just block you as an assumption of malicious intent and clear disregard for my statements other wise.) We can debate this with out going there. One again, please and thank you and i hope all understand as this is offensive to me and may be to others if pursued and contorted into such. Respect and love to every one on this one. I hate to even have to put this here to curb it before it gets out of hand. OK, then. Pray tell, what makes think you there is a parallel between Rhaegar & Arthur and Loras & Renly, but without once referencing those stereotypes, because they're not the foundation of your theory? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 I have wondered if Rhaegar maybe swung both ways... http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/123815-wow-i-never-noticed-that-v10/&do=findComment&comment=6795890 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knight Of Winter Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 Eh, not the most logical argument. First you establish an arbitrary analogy, and then proceed it to treat as absolute certainty where there'e no basis for that. Begging the question, the fallacy is called. Moving on, you disregard evidence which points to the contrary - like Barristan saying Rheagar loved Lyanna. And he's not even the only one to assert so - Cersei and Kevan tell us pretty much the same in ADWD. Any "theory" can be founded on such a flimsy analogies. For example: Aegon IV - jovial brother; Dragonknight - serious brother. Thus, Renly had hundreds of mistresses, unlike Stannis. Quiet bookish type (Rhaegar) has a gay friend (JonCon). Thus, Jon is in love with Sam. Dragonknight died protecting his sister's husband. Thus, Loras will die protecting Tommen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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