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Rhaegar loved Arthur and men?


AlaskanSandman

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5 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

We have a character who would be in a position to know information stating said information.

Selmy is not much of an authority on this topic, though, as he himself thinks in the same chapter:

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The Prince of Dragonstone had never trusted him as he had trusted Arthur Dayne.

So there's no good reason to think that Rhaegar discussed a deeply personal topic -- his love life -- with Selmy.  Certainly nobody including Selmy ever thinks or says that such a discussion ever happened.

Selmy is also known to jump to bogus conclusions.  He does that in the same chapter too:

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But Ashara's daughter had been stillborn, and his fair lady had thrown herself from a tower soon after, mad with grief for the child she had lost, and perhaps for the man who had dishonored her at Harrenhal as well.

Here he seems to be implying that 

• Ashara was "dishonored at Harrenhal" and got pregnant as a result

• She had a stillborn daughter and killed herself "soon after" that

I'm afraid the good Barristan has not pondered this deeply enough.  We know factually, from AGOT, that Ashara was still alive about two years after Harrenhal, because Ned returned Dawn to Starfall and Ashara was still alive then. 

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10 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

That's Barristan, not Rhaegar. Big difference. As he would be assuming along with every one else.

Don't know whether someone prior me in this thread already wrote it, but in case if no one did - in Dany's vision in House of Undying:

ACOK, Dany 4

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Rubies flew like drops of blood from the chest of a dying prince, and he sank to his knees in the water and with his last breath murmured a woman’s name.

"Arthur" is not a woman's name.

Rhaegar's last word was name of his most loved person, and that person was a female. If Rhaegar was gay, and in love with Arthur or Jon Con, wouldn't he have said male's name?

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10 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Also, lets not forget that the vision Dany see's of Rhaegar is just that. A vision. Given by the House of the Undying who have lied to her repeatedly. There may be no reason to actually trust that vision. 

A vision of Red Wedding that she saw was real.

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Farther on she came upon a feast of corpses. Savagely slaughtered, the feasters lay strewn across overturned chairs and hacked trestle tables, asprawl in pools of congealing blood. Some had lost limbs, even heads. Severed hands clutched bloody cups, wooden spoons, roast fowl, heels of bread. In a throne above them sat a dead man with the head of a wolf. He wore an iron crown and held a leg of lamb in one hand as a king might hold a scepter, and his eyes followed Dany with mute appeal.

Other visions:

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In one room, a beautiful woman sprawled naked on the floor while four little men crawled over her. They had rattish pointed faces and tiny pink hands, like the servitor who had brought her the glass of shade. One was pumping between her thighs. Another savaged her breasts, worrying at the nipples with his wet red mouth, tearing and chewing.

The woman is 7K, and four little men are Joffrey, Stannis, Renly, and Greyjoy.

It was War of Five Kings, but unlike four others, Robb didn't wanted to become King or ruler of 7K, and "rape" and rip apart 7K, for him this war was revenge to Lannisters for his father's death.

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Beyond loomed a cavernous stone hall, the largest she had ever seen. The skulls of dead dragons looked down from its walls. Upon a towering barbed throne sat an old man in rich robes, an old man with dark eyes and long silver-grey hair. “Let him be king over charred bones and cooked meat,” he said to a man below him. “Let him be the king of ashes.”

<- Final moments of Mad King Aerys, when he ordered to burn KL with wildfire, and "him" to whom Aerys was referring was Robert Baratheon.

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Viserys, was her first thought the next time she paused, but a second glance told her otherwise. The man had her brother’s hair, but he was taller, and his eyes were a dark indigo rather than lilac. “Aegon,” he said to a woman nursing a newborn babe in a great wooden bed. “What better name for a king?”

Rhaegar indeed had indigo colored eyes. It's unlikely that Viserys ever told his sister what was eye color of their dead brother.

Next what the Undying said:

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three mounts must you ride . . . one to bed and one to dread and one to love 

Daario Naharis, Hizdahr zo Loraq, Jon Snow.

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three treasons will you know . . . once for blood and once for gold and once for love . . .

Mirri Maz Duur, Jorah Mormont. Daario Naharis? Or maybe Jon Snow?

Another vision:

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A tall lord with copper skin and silver-gold hair stood beneath the banner of a fiery stallion, a burning city behind him.

Rhaego?

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Glowing like sunset, a red sword was raised in the hand of a blue-eyed king who cast no shadow.

Stannis, or Jon Snow after his revival (if he will be a wight, his eyes could become blue).

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A cloth dragon swayed on poles amidst a cheering crowd.

Young Griff / fAegon - mummers dragon.

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From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire.

I have no idea about this one ^_^ Tyrion Lannister?

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Her silver was trotting through the grass, to a darkling stream beneath a sea of stars.

Dany in Asshai?

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A corpse stood at the prow of a ship, eyes bright in his dead face, grey lips smiling sadly.

Theon.

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A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness.

Jon Snow, Lord Commander of Night's Watch, at The Wall.

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Shadows whirled and danced inside a tent, boneless and terrible. A little girl ran barefoot toward a big house with a red door. Mirri Maz Duur shrieked in the flames, a dragon bursting from her brow. Behind a silver horse the bloody corpse of a naked man bounced and dragged. A white lion ran through grass taller than a man. Beneath the Mother of Mountains, a line of naked crones crept from a great lake and knelt shivering before her, their grey heads bowed.

Visions from the past. Scene from Drogo's tent. Dany's memories about her childhood in Braavos. Etc.

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Ten thousand slaves lifted bloodstained hands as she raced by on her silver, riding like the wind. “Mother!” they cried. “Mother, mother!” They were reaching for her, touching her, tugging at her cloak, the hem of her skirt, her foot, her leg, her breast. They wanted her, needed her, the fire, the life, and Dany gasped and opened her arms to give herself to them

Another vision of the future - scene from Yunkai.

 

Thus what Dany saw then, whether visions of the past, or predictions from the future, all of it was real.

Thus Rhaegar really said woman's name when he was dying. It wasn't just a vision, it was real like all the rest of what Dany saw then.

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3 hours ago, JNR said:

Selmy is not much of an authority on this topic, though, as he himself thinks in the same chapter:

So there's no good reason to think that Rhaegar discussed a deeply personal topic -- his love life -- with Selmy.  Certainly nobody including Selmy ever thinks or says that such a discussion ever happened.

Selmy is also known to jump to bogus conclusions.  He does that in the same chapter too:

Here he seems to be implying that 

• Ashara was "dishonored at Harrenhal" and got pregnant as a result

• She had a stillborn daughter and killed herself "soon after" that

I'm afraid the good Barristan has not pondered this deeply enough.  We know factually, from AGOT, that Ashara was still alive about two years after Harrenhal, because Ned returned Dawn to Starfall and Ashara was still alive then. 

Barristan would still have more of a window into the lives of royalty than anyone else alive in the novels. Much like how Prince Martell had a paramour that was known within the brotherhood of the guard, Barristan would speak to his white cloaked brothers about the state of the family, who would be doing what and why. As for the ashara timeline, why would she need to kill herself right after the baby died. depression does not always work with tight timelines, and if she had spent over a year sad from a lost baby, and then a man she loves carrying the sword of her beloved now dead brother, she could have offed herself. 

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14 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Could Rhaegar have maybe been in love with Arthur Dayne like Loras and Renly were. This is a hypothetical look at the mirror comparison potentially between Rhaegar to Renly and Arthur to Loras.

Think about it.

  • Arthur Dayne is great with his swords just like Loras Tyrell

Many men, and some woman ;), are very good with swords int he story. I don't think this makes an exclusive case for Rhaegar being gay.

14 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:
  • When asked if Rhaegar loved Elia, Barristan cannot say yes.
  • GRRM has stated the Elia and Rhaegar's marriage was complicated

I agree that it is complicated, but we also know that as history repeats, Targ's tend to marry once for love and once for duty.

Elia is for duty- no real love there. Mutual respect, honor, and duty, yes, but not a heartfelt desire.

Lyanna was for love... however that works out.

14 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:
  • We know Rhaegar crowns Lyanna , but may not have stolen her as.

Just to be clear, by "stolen", are you referring to the courting style before the wedding? I think he did, however that works out.

14 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:
  • we have no eye witness or their account or any knowledge as to why Rhaegar was suspected other than he was seen at Harrenhal giving her a rose. 
  • Rhaegar had never talked to Lyanna that we know of


And? I am not being sarcastic, but the author has told we don't know everything yet, but will by the next two books.

14 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:
  • The Knight of the Laughing tree is repeatedly referred to as a male by Meera who also states that he spoke in a booming voice. Something we know from Eddard's description of Robert is required of a good leader, especially in the middle of battle.


Well, who is to say that Howland was lying on all aspects? Another theme of this series is that two different people/talents/etc come together to create something stronger. The free folk "stealing" anti-incest is another example of this.

14 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

 

  • Rhaegar loved harp and books and only became a swords man after reading a prophecy he thought was about him. and further
  • He is never described as a great warrior, not even by Barristan  who states that he loved music and books more than killing

Because our author tends to "reward" brains over brawn by story's end. Think of who our author is a real person.

14 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:
  • In many ways, Rhaegar is Renly to people who don't know Renly is gay.

Most every adult in the series that talks about Renly knows his preference and even his love of Loras. And most don't care.

14 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

So something doesn't add up when you compare.    


Let's not over complicate and already complicated story. If you have read any of GRRM's past works, this Rhaegar-Elia-Lyann, with a flaming red mad Jon Con on the side, is exactly in line with his preferred set up. Dying of the Light, Song for Lya, Fevre Dream, Lonely Songs of Larran Dor, and others, just to name a few. This Rhaegar love triangle fits perfectly with the set up.

 

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14 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Could Rhaegar have maybe been in love with Arthur Dayne like Loras and Renly were. This is a hypothetical look at the mirror comparison potentially between Rhaegar to Renly and Arthur to Loras.

Hypothetically speaking, I'd say he could have. In which case the author would have left clues/hints, something he did not. 

 

14 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Think about it.

  • Arthur Dayne is great with his swords just like Loras Tyrell

As are a bunch of people, like Jaime Lannister, Barristan Selmy, etc. In a world where sword fighting/training is a big part of people's lives, we will get the full spectrum: from great sword fighters to awful ones, and everything in between.

 

14 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:
  • When asked if Rhaegar loved Elia, Barristan cannot say yes.

Of course he can't. Barristan wasn't in Rhaegar's inner circle, he has no way of knowing how good or bad Rhaegar and Elia's marriage was. 

14 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:
  • GRRM has stated the Elia and Rhaegar's marriage was complicated

I'm very happily married to the [almost] perfect man, and things get complicated at times. 

14 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:
  • We know Rhaegar crowns Lyanna , but may not have stolen her as.
  • we have no eye witness or their account or any knowledge as to why Rhaegar was suspected other than he was seen at Harrenhal giving her a rose. 

Well, according to the WB there are accounts of Rhaegar taking Lyanna. But even w/o any accounts or witnesses, what does this prove? Nothing. What does it hint at? Absolutely nothing. 

14 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:
  • Rhaegar had never talked to Lyanna that we know of

And how does that mean he was in love with Arthur Dayne?

14 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:
  • The Knight of the Laughing tree is repeatedly referred to as a male by Meera who also states that he spoke in a booming voice. Something we know from Eddard's description of Robert is required of a good leader, especially in the middle of battle.

Erhm... and why and how does being fond of music equals being gay? Are you fucking joking? :rolleyes:

 

14 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:
  • In many ways, Rhaegar is Renly to people who don't know Renly is gay.

In many ways? Really? Please, do elaborate.

14 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:
  Hide contents

 

So when looking at the known Tourneys and over lapping them and what is known about each, i began to see over laps.  

 

For Phone viewers

  Hide contents

 

Uthor Hightower-Steals the Maid

Maris the Maid

 Argoth Stoneskin Crowns the maid with rose?

vs ________ 

first Tourney of Westeros

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Peter Baelish Steals Maid

Sansa the Maid infatuated with Loras engaged to Joffery

Loras Tyrell Gives Maid Rose Gay not actually into her Cheats to win   Becomes a Kings Guard Knight and Lord Commander.

vs The Mountain  is made a K.G

In Hands Tourney

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

  __________?? Steals the Maid 

Lyanna the maid Infatuated with Rhaegar? Engaged to Robert

Rhaegar Targaryen  .Crowns the maid

vs Barristan  wants Ashara Is a Kings Guard Knight and Lord Commander

Tourney of Harrenhal

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Tregar Ormollen  Steals maid

Lynesse Hightower Maid  Infatuated with Tregar married to Jorah

 Jorah Mormont   Crowns Maid Wants Lynesse

 vs   Jamie  in last Tilt      Jamie loves Cersei  Is a Kings Guard Knight

 Tourney of Lannisport

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

__________? Steals maid

Naerys Targaryen not a Maid   Infatuated with? Married to Aegon IV   

Aemon the Dragon Knight  Kings Guard Knight  Said to crown Naerys instead of his mistress. Not into Naerys?

 vs ______?   Loves? 

Tourney of Kings Landing?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Daemon Targ/ Laenar Velaryon  Both have kids with Rhaenyra Steals the Maid 

Rhaenyra Maid at time  

Ser Criston Cole   Become K.G. and L.C  Crowns the Maid  but still loses to Lymond

vs  Lymond Mallister    

Tourney of MaidenPool

 

 

             Uthor Hightower==== Maris the Maid     vs  Argoth Stoneskin         vs ________      in first Tourney of Westeros

  Steals the Maid                                                     Crowns the maid with rose?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

           Peter Baelish ======Sansa the Maid     vs    Loras Tyrell                 vs The Mountain         In Hands Tourney

     Steals Maid                         infatuated with Loras       Gives Maid Rose                is made a K.G.            

                                                engaged to Joffery         Gay not actually into her

                                                                                                Cheats to win

                                                                                        Becomes a Kings Guard Knight and Lord Commander.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

      __________?? ========Lyanna the maid       vs        Rhaegar Targaryen   vs Barristan       Tourney of Harrenhal

Steals the Maid                         Infatuated with Rhaegar?          Crowns the maid         wants Ashara  

                                                          Engaged to Robert.                                         Is a Kings Guard Knight

                                                                                                                                      and Lord Commander

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Tregar Ormollen =======Lynesse Hightower Maid vs    Jorah Mormont   vs   Jamie  in last Tilt        Tourney of

Steals maid                        Infatuated with Tregar                    Crowns Maid           Jamie loves Cersei     Lannisport

                                           married to Jorah                         Wants Lynesse          Is a Kings Guard Knight

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 __________? ====Naerys Targaryen not a Maid   vs Aemon the Dragon Knight   vs ______? Tourney of Kings

                                      Infatuated with?                             Kings Guard Knight                      Loves?   Landing?                        

                                  Married to Aegon IV                      Said to crown Naerys instead 

                                                                                      of his mistress. Not into Naerys?

__________________________________________________________________________________________________

Daemon Targ/ Laenar Velaryon ======Rhaenyra   vs Ser Criston Cole   vs  Lymond Mallister    Tourney of

   Both have kids with Rhaenyra           Maid at time    Become K.G. and L.C                                          MaidenPool

 Steals the Maid                                                            Crowns the Maid  but still loses to Lymond         

 

So something doesn't add up when you compare.       

the person doing the stealing may not be competing in the Tourney and is never the person who does the crowning or wins the Tourney.

 

Now i personally think Rhaegar is Ice and not fire do to a thread i did about Rhaenyra Targaryen and Daemon Targaryen possibly having the Blood of the Starks in them. But as that is debated, i kept him fire here. So if he is fire here, then it breaks the cycle. It also means that the person doing the stealing would be Ice. Also, Aemon i think is Ice too as he descends from Rhaenyra and Daemon. This is why i think they lost their dragons, so kind of tied to it all for me. 

Is there any other parallels you can find or think of?

I see no parallels here at all. Other than Westerosi, good w/ swords, male... that's it. 

14 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Who could possibly have been the person to steal Lyanna  -   (Books aren't done people and that name less thing does not exist here, so think freely and stop thinking of that loose adaptation.)

Can any one think of anything else to do with Sansa, Loras and Little Finger that may be telling us more? Or else where in the story?

 

And Blasphemy but,         who other than Rhaegar Targaryen could have stolen Lyanna Stark? lets just be hypothetical here based on the above evidence.

Sorry, but there is no evidence above. Nada, zero, zip, ziltch.

14 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

 

Kind of an odd out there question but based on his complicated marriage to Elia, could Rhaegar have been gay? A complicated warrior who loved the harp? 

Again w/ the infantile and silly stereotyping.

*disclaimer* accidentally deleted something here*

 

14 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

 

 

(WARNING- If you chose to ignore this paragraph and attack me with accusations of which i've already covered under this paragraph. I will just block you as an assumption of malicious intent and clear disregard for my statements other wise.) We can debate this with out going there. One again, please and thank you and i hope all understand as this is offensive to me and may be to others if pursued and contorted into such. Respect and love to every one on this one. :) I hate to even have to put this here to curb it before it gets out of hand.

Sorry but to me there's absolutely nothing here other than trying to come up w/ a "different" scenario, only there are zero clues pointing to it, and overall just makes me feel like you're trying too hard to be "original" - and failing b/c it has been brought up before. Many times, in fact. :dunno:

 

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17 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

And how does that mean he was in love with Arthur Dayne?

Erhm... and why and how does being fond of music equals being gay? Are you fucking joking? :rolleyes:

~snipped~

Again w/ the infantile and silly stereotyping.

...
 

Yeah, I don't quite make the connection to playing the harp = gay, or even effeminate. Mance plays the harp, and we also see him kick booty on the dance floor with a sword.

Also, a while back I started a thread and what I thought was going to be a cheeky-fun look at comparing Rhaegar and Jon (there is much that could be tweeked in that thread). I mean, they don't look alike, but they should have something in common with each other. It turns out that the harp and the bow share a lot in common, and Jon is ramping up the bow training at the Wall, and we do hear from Petyr that, "A harp [Rhaegar] can be as dangerous as a sword [Jon], in the right hands." They are both weapons in their own respective way.

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4 hours ago, Megorova said:

Don't know whether someone prior me in this thread already wrote it, but in case if no one did - in Dany's vision in House of Undying:

ACOK, Dany 4

"Arthur" is not a woman's name.

Rhaegar's last word was name of his most loved person, and that person was a female. If Rhaegar was gay, and in love with Arthur or Jon Con, wouldn't he have said male's name?

Are you 100% sure that the Prince Dany saw dying was Rhaegar? And not say a future vision of Aegon,or fAegon if you are on that side of the fence meeting the same fate? He seemed very intent to right Targ defeats.

The caution Dany got regarding the visions she would see in HOTU:

The door to my right," Dany repeated. "I understand. And when I leave, the opposite?"
"By no means," Pyat Pree said. "Leaving and coming, it is the same. Always up. Always the door to your right. Other doors may open to you. Within, you will see many things that disturb you. Visions of loveliness and visions of horror, wonders and terrors. Sights and sounds of days gone by and days to come and days that never were. Dwellers and servitors may speak to you as you go. Answer or ignore them as you choose, but enter no room until you reach the audience chamber."
"I understand."
 
Dany saw Rhaegar in one of her visions at HOTU,remember? The whole " will you make a song for him".Yet she doesn't identify the dying prince as Rhaegar.She also doesn't identify the name spoken by said dying prince as Lyanna. This would be a nice reveal if we didn't get the story of Rhaegar supposedly kidnapping Lyanna since book one. GRRM is hiding nothing here except a misdirection. We have all heard the story of how Rheagar died,so naturally we assume that who Dany saw must be him.But those little red flags are indicators that "The when" is not what we think it is.
1 hour ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Barristan would still have more of a window into the lives of royalty than anyone else alive in the novels. Much like how Prince Martell had a paramour that was known within the brotherhood of the guard, Barristan would speak to his white cloaked brothers about the state of the family, who would be doing what and why. As for the ashara timeline, why would she need to kill herself right after the baby died. depression does not always work with tight timelines, and if she had spent over a year sad from a lost baby, and then a man she loves carrying the sword of her beloved now dead brother, she could have offed herself. 

Yeah but when it comes to Rhaegar he has not intimate details.No intimate knowledge other than what everybody else assumed happened based on what they think they know.

15 hours ago, Jaehaerys Tyrell said:

But he does say he loved Lyanna. Most of your evidence is very weak - just because Arthur Dayne was a great knight like Loras Tyrell doesn’t mean he’s gay (just look at Jaime), just as Rhaegar not being very martial doesn’t mean he’s gay, (just look at Sam). 

I really don’t think Rhaegar was gay, and I don’t see how it would contribute to his story. There’s a possibility he was gay and wanted a third heir by Lyanna, believing they were ice and fire, but I think it works far better as a love story. 

Rhaegar actually said nothing to no one about Lyanna and that's one of those red flags. None of Rhaegar's in the know buddies can give any detail about this relationship that suppossedly happened. 

It was in fact Selmy who said that and from the context it wasn't something that he had intimate details on.It was just another thing on the Westrosi history board.Something people think they know,believe with no details.

 

"She will weep and tear her hair and curse the Yunkai'i. Not us. No blood on our hands. You can comfort her. Tell her some tale of the old days, she likes those. Poor Daario, her brave captain … she will never forget him, no … but better for all of us if he is dead, yes? Better for Daenerys too."

Better for Daenerys, and for Westeros. Daenerys Targaryen loved her captain, but that was the girl in her, not the queen. Prince Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna, and thousands died for it. Daemon Blackfyre loved the first Daenerys, and rose in rebellion when denied her. Bittersteel and Bloodraven both loved Shiera Seastar, and the Seven Kingdoms bled. The Prince of Dragonflies loved Jenny of Oldstones so much he cast aside a crown, and Westeros paid the bride price in corpses. All three of the sons of the fifth Aegon had wed for love, in defiance of their father's wishes. And because that unlikely monarch had himself followed his heart when he chose his queen, he allowed his sons to have their way, making bitter enemies where he might have had fast friends. Treason and turmoil followed, as night follows day, ending at Summerhall in sorcery, fire, and grief."
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14 minutes ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Are you 100% sure that the Prince Dany saw dying was Rhaegar?

And not say a future vision of Aegon,or fAegon if you are on that side of the fence meeting the same fate? He seemed very intent to right Targ defeats.

I really don't think we're supposed to look for another dying prince, rubies flying like drops of blood from his chest, sinking to his knees in water. The only thing lacking is a huge banner saying "RHAEGAR ON THE TRIDENT", but including that would be just bad writing.

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1 hour ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Barristan would still have more of a window into the lives of royalty than anyone else alive in the novels. Much like how Prince Martell had a paramour that was known within the brotherhood of the guard, Barristan would speak to his white cloaked brothers about the state of the family, who would be doing what and why.

Maybe not?

Like, I'm sure if you asked him if Rheagar would be willing to usurp and/or kill his own father I'm sure he'd say hell no...but Rheagar's small convo with Jamie before heading out to war indicated he planned on doing just that no?

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14 minutes ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Rhaegar actually said nothing to no one about Lyanna and that's one of those red flags. None of Rhaegar's in the know buddies can give any detail about this relationship that suppossedly happened. 

I'm a tad confused... Which of Rhaegar's "buddies" are you referring to here? 

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4 minutes ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

I really don't think we're supposed to look for another dying prince, rubies flying like drops of blood from his chest, sinking to his knees in water. The only thing lacking is a huge banner saying "RHAEGAR ON THE TRIDENT", but including that would be just bad writing.

Damn straight, I couldn't agree more.

3 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Maybe not?

Like, I'm sure if you asked him if Rheagar would be willing to usurp and/or kill his own father I'm sure he'd say hell no...but Rheagar's small convo with Jamie before heading out to war indicated he planned on doing just that no?

Again, couldn't agree more. Ser Barry was most definitely not amongst Rhaegar/'s closest friends.

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11 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

His dying word was the name of a woman he fathered a son with. This was in addition to the woman he married and fathered two children with. 
No, he isn't gay. Fluid maybe, we have multiple instances of him loving women, and nothing of him loving men. One man seems to have been in love with him, but there is no law that says love needs to be reciprocal 

But no account of him saying any of this or doing any of this from an eye witness. I know it's flimsy maybe but it's a hypothetical question i thought worth asking based on the other parallels. The love totally didn't have to be reciprocal between Rhaegar and Jon Con either but it does make one wonder if Rhaegar was aware at all. 

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11 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

This implies he knew Arthur, and what he would and wouldn't approve of. Like he'd approve of him Rhaegar and Jon Con jousting beneath the sheets.

Listen, I'll only buy into the Arthur+Rhaegar ship if you include Jon Con. He lost the Battle of the Bells, is dying of greyscale  and is taking care of a kid who is most likely not his silver prince's son. He deserves it!:tantrum:

Lol maybe but i can only work with what's possibly in the text. The other mirrors are there but need more evidence for something to include Jon Con in the mix fully, but like i said above. It does make one wonder how aware of Jon Con's feeling Rhaegar was. 

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5 hours ago, Megorova said:

Don't know whether someone prior me in this thread already wrote it, but in case if no one did - in Dany's vision in House of Undying:

ACOK, Dany 4

"Arthur" is not a woman's name.

Rhaegar's last word was name of his most loved person, and that person was a female. If Rhaegar was gay, and in love with Arthur or Jon Con, wouldn't he have said male's name?

Not that particular quote no but the general line of though of which i completely understand. Textually, that all could be seen as evidence. Except if you consider that even the Warlocks told her that some visions were false. How do we know which was false, or how does Dany know? Why should i trust her visions any more that i should trust Mel's or any one else?

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58 minutes ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

I really don't think we're supposed to look for another dying prince, rubies flying like drops of blood from his chest, sinking to his knees in water. The only thing lacking is a huge banner saying "RHAEGAR ON THE TRIDENT", but including that would be just bad writing.

Who says we aren't suppose to look for another dying prince. Its right there in ink how the visions are suppossed to be seen.And again ,Dany has seen Rhaegar's face in the vision,she's seen Rhaegar's armor; yet she doesn't tell us the dying prince was also Rhaegar?

Nahhhhhh. We are making associations based on the similarties of what Dany saw and what we heard of Rhaegar's death.The spoke in the wheel still remains Danys lack of recognition where there should be clear recognition.

We hear Rhaegar sinking to his knees in the Trident dying and rubies flying and think it must be Rhaegar.All the while we ignore 

1. What Dany was told about the visions

2.The fact that Dany refers to her brother whose face and armour she's seen as "dying prince"

3. From a writing standpoint concealing something we know from book one and we are sure Dany knew makes no sense.That would be bad writing.

55 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I'm a tad confused... Which of Rhaegar's "buddies" are you referring to here? 

Left alive.....JonCon.Yet the only one JonCon seems to be irked about is Elia and Rhaegar.No mention of Rhaegar and Lyanna in any such context.

And Selmy...Again,Selmy has given nothing about that because he knows nothing about Rhaegar and Lyanna beyond what everyone else knows.

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4 hours ago, Megorova said:

A vision of Red Wedding that she saw was real.

Other visions:

The woman is 7K, and four little men are Joffrey, Stannis, Renly, and Greyjoy.

It was War of Five Kings, but unlike four others, Robb didn't wanted to become King or ruler of 7K, and "rape" and rip apart 7K, for him this war was revenge to Lannisters for his father's death.

<- Final moments of Mad King Aerys, when he ordered to burn KL with wildfire, and "him" to whom Aerys was referring was Robert Baratheon.

Rhaegar indeed had indigo colored eyes. It's unlikely that Viserys ever told his sister what was eye color of their dead brother.

Next what the Undying said:

Daario Naharis, Hizdahr zo Loraq, Jon Snow.

Mirri Maz Duur, Jorah Mormont. Daario Naharis? Or maybe Jon Snow?

Another vision:

Rhaego?

Stannis, or Jon Snow after his revival (if he will be a wight, his eyes could become blue).

Young Griff / fAegon - mummers dragon.

I have no idea about this one ^_^ Tyrion Lannister?

Dany in Asshai?

Theon.

Jon Snow, Lord Commander of Night's Watch, at The Wall.

Visions from the past. Scene from Drogo's tent. Dany's memories about her childhood in Braavos. Etc.

Another vision of the future - scene from Yunkai.

 

Thus what Dany saw then, whether visions of the past, or predictions from the future, all of it was real.

Thus Rhaegar really said woman's name when he was dying. It wasn't just a vision, it was real like all the rest of what Dany saw then.

Well that's one way to interpret it all but hardly the only way to interpret that all, let alone whether a person should actually trust any of it. And why would Viserys have mentioned Rhaegars eyes among all the other random stuff he talked about. It's not like they lacked for time. This is still the same problem Melisandre has and what others warn about. Trusting visions and your interpretations of them. Mel thinks she's right, Morqorro thinks he's right, and so on. So your more right than any of these characters too? I just think this might be the same mistake we're all making. They are visions, and nothing more. Not history or eye witness accounts from people who were there.

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44 minutes ago, Ser Leftwich said:

1) How would the readers come to learn of this?

2) How would it be relevant to the story ?

(Neither of these can really be answered satisfactorily, so it doesn't matter.)

1. Revelation from JonCon.He already gave us a memory of Rhaegar,why not with two of them in the fields  somewhere.If it happened.

2. To indicate that this romanticized idea about Rhaegar and Lyanna was false.

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