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Rhaegar loved Arthur and men?


AlaskanSandman

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1 hour ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Rhaega

13 minutes ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Left alive.....JonCon.Yet the only one JonCon seems to be irked about is Elia and Rhaegar.No mention of Rhaegar and Lyanna in any such context.

And Selmy...Again,Selmy has given nothing about that because he knows nothing about Rhaegar and Lyanna beyond what everyone else knows.

Rhaegar actually said nothing to no one about Lyanna and that's one of those red flags. None of Rhaegar's in the know buddies can give any detail about this relationship that suppossedly happened. 

Quotes are a bit wonky... Bolded is your reply to my reply to the second of your posts quoted here. 

First you claimed that Rhaegar told no one anything about Lyanna, and the fact is, you - or I or anyone - can't know that because we never get any accounts/recollections from any of Rhaegar's closest friends. And no, I don'r count JonCon among Rhaegar's closest friends, and Selmy even less.  

So, again, at the risk of repeating myself here, I don;t quite get the point you are trying to make. 

 

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2 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Many men, and some woman ;), are very good with swords int he story. I don't think this makes an exclusive case for Rhaegar being gay.

I agree that it is complicated, but we also know that as history repeats, Targ's tend to marry once for love and once for duty.

Elia is for duty- no real love there. Mutual respect, honor, and duty, yes, but not a heartfelt desire.

Lyanna was for love... however that works out.

Just to be clear, by "stolen", are you referring to the courting style before the wedding? I think he did, however that works out.


And? I am not being sarcastic, but the author has told we don't know everything yet, but will by the next two books.


Well, who is to say that Howland was lying on all aspects? Another theme of this series is that two different people/talents/etc come together to create something stronger. The free folk "stealing" anti-incest is another example of this.

Because our author tends to "reward" brains over brawn by story's end. Think of who our author is a real person.

Most every adult in the series that talks about Renly knows his preference and even his love of Loras. And most don't care.


Let's not over complicate and already complicated story. If you have read any of GRRM's past works, this Rhaegar-Elia-Lyann, with a flaming red mad Jon Con on the side, is exactly in line with his preferred set up. Dying of the Light, Song for Lya, Fevre Dream, Lonely Songs of Larran Dor, and others, just to name a few. This Rhaegar love triangle fits perfectly with the set up.

 

Again, it's not just about their preferred hobbies. It's about their greater parallels from the Tourney and other characteristics that Mirror Loras and Renly to Arthur and Rhaegar.

And yes, he married for duty. But why is it so hard to imagine a gay king in the mix? Really? Martin can't break tropes, even his own? Specially when he gave you a current narrative that may possibly mirror that of Rhaegar's then. 

That's still a matter of opinion unless you wanna bring up that unnameless Fan service. Jon's parents haven't been revealed in the books last time i checked and a love between Rhaegar and Lyanna hasn't been proven. Seems pretty simple to me. Im not on that band wagon of just following that Fan Service adaptation as fact or cannon. Sorry. Not till the books are done. 

And na i mean literally stealing the Maid from the person who crowned the Maid. So since Rhaegar crowned her, those other Tourney's would imply that he did not take her, marry her, or have kids with her. It just doesn't line up with the other Tourney's. 

Yea im not buying this cherry picking over what Howland and Meera were being honest about and what they weren't. Thats a nice convenient argument but i dont buy it. Either every thing they said was true, or none of it. If they wanted to with hold, they could have, just like how she doesn't finish the story of who crowned the Maid. 

Not all though, there are people such as Eddard who doesnt' seem to realize as he is puzzled over why Renly would want a woman that looks like Lyanna. Who didn't, he wanted her for Robert. 

Let's not just believe that nameless Fan Service adaptation as fact, and please dont try to act like the most popular theory some one has managed to sit and argue over for 165 versions of 500 comments (82,000 comments) and still hasn't convinced every body is some how more right than others. Again, the books aren't done, Jon's parents havn't been revealed, and Rhaegars love of Lyanna not proven. So it's a worthy question to still ask imo and one i havn't seen before that i can see possibly mirrored as pointed out by those Tourneys. 

Now it is an out of left field question as we've all just excepted these ideas, but i think there is some example possibly in the books. I do fully expect a lot of disagreement though centered around the same thoughts though :) For the record ive always believed Rhaegar to be the father of Dany and Jon by Lyanna and Ashara. Just alot of this stuff between Bael and Mance, and the Tourneys has me really rethinking everything. 

The possible event's of the Dance and how i think the Targaryen's lost their dragons would mean a lot into this all, along with what happened in Mirri's tent. Which i think was binding Danys blood to her dragons and waking them. Not that she is the right blood come together again finally to make a dragon, even Martin has said Dany is like 1/20 as Targaryen as Aegon I. So that's not why she hatched dragons. So if her blood isn't important, than she may not even be a Targaryen. If i apply the Tourney evidence and Bael and Mance evidence, it would suggest that Jon is Mance's child, and Daenerys is either Eddard's or Mance's. Again, this is based off my Bael and Alysanne thread. Which plays out into the Dance with Rhaenrya and Daemon who's son together and King Aegon III was the dragon's bane. They ended the line due to their Stark blood. So any blood she has, isn't that of the Dragon. Mirri woke the dragon in the tent. Woke it from he ice line, similar to how i see Nissa Nissa being an Other who was stabbed by Azor Ahai. From their came their child who may have died like Danys so that Nissa Nissa would be the mother of Dragons. It all rhymes. and if that does. Then Rhaegar and Renly can. 

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2 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Hypothetically speaking, I'd say he could have. In which case the author would have left clues/hints, something he did not. 

 

As are a bunch of people, like Jaime Lannister, Barristan Selmy, etc. In a world where sword fighting/training is a big part of people's lives, we will get the full spectrum: from great sword fighters to awful ones, and everything in between.

 

Of course he can't. Barristan wasn't in Rhaegar's inner circle, he has no way of knowing how good or bad Rhaegar and Elia's marriage was. 

I'm very happily married to the [almost] perfect man, and things get complicated at times. 

Well, according to the WB there are accounts of Rhaegar taking Lyanna. But even w/o any accounts or witnesses, what does this prove? Nothing. What does it hint at? Absolutely nothing. 

And how does that mean he was in love with Arthur Dayne?

Erhm... and why and how does being fond of music equals being gay? Are you fucking joking? :rolleyes:

 

In many ways? Really? Please, do elaborate.

I see no parallels here at all. Other than Westerosi, good w/ swords, male... that's it. 

Sorry, but there is no evidence above. Nada, zero, zip, ziltch.

Again w/ the infantile and silly stereotyping.

*disclaimer* accidentally deleted something here*

 

Sorry but to me there's absolutely nothing here other than trying to come up w/ a "different" scenario, only there are zero clues pointing to it, and overall just makes me feel like you're trying too hard to be "original" - and failing b/c it has been brought up before. Many times, in fact. :dunno:

 

Again, i covered this at the bottom of the OP. Get off the issue of the hobbies, you guys are being silly. Im a fricking musician and artist and im not gay, but i know alot who are. I warned about dragging this back down that road, so bye.

Im also a thespian in theater and love boxing and lots of contact sports. So again, to any an all reading this. Dont bring up stupid stuff like this to me when ive already covered that their interest isnt the point at hand, it's the collection of their character and such held up in comparison to Renly. Stop cherry picking my post to start an argument i wont have. 

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1 hour ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Yeah but when it comes to Rhaegar he has not intimate details.No intimate knowledge other than what everybody else assumed happened based on what they think they know.

Rhaegar gave details to members of the kingsguard, and there are no secrets within the white brotherhood. 

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1 minute ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Rhaegar gave details to members of the kingsguard, and there are no secrets within the white brotherhood. 

Seemed to be some at least as poor Barristan felt cut out of Rhaegar's circle that included Went, Dayne and possibly Hightower.

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50 minutes ago, wolfmaid7 said:

1. Revelation from JonCon.He already gave us a memory of Rhaegar,why not with two of them in the fields  somewhere.If it happened.

2. To indicate that this romanticized idea about Rhaegar and Lyanna was false.

Then why doesn't Jon Con think of Lyanna at all then? He thinks of Elia who had his sweet princes love. Wouldn't he hate the woman who got Rhaegar killed? Wouldn't his thoughts go to her? 

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21 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Again, i covered this at the bottom of the OP. Get off the issue of the hobbies, you guys are being silly. Im a fricking musician and artist and im not gay, but i know alot who are. I warned about dragging this back down that road, so bye.

Im also a thespian in theater and love boxing and lots of contact sports. So again, to any an all reading this. Dont bring up stupid stuff like this to me when ive already covered that their interest isnt the point at hand, it's the collection of their character and such held up in comparison to Renly. Stop cherry picking my post to start an argument i wont have. 

So. You want to have your cake, eat it, and fuck the baker? 

Read your own OP and you will [hopefully] understand what I'm talking about,. ;)

 

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3 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Alaskan, I just want to say that you changed your avatar pic to my most favorite GRRM story ever. That is actually a really sad story.

Hahah i love that story, by far one of his darkest! But he comes back speaking truths that no one wants to hear. It was really just me being glib :) 

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1 hour ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Maybe not?

Like, I'm sure if you asked him if Rheagar would be willing to usurp and/or kill his own father I'm sure he'd say hell no...but Rheagar's small convo with Jamie before heading out to war indicated he planned on doing just that no?

I am sure that if GRRM felt the need to  have dany ask Barristan that question he would have answered in the same way he answered dany about Lyanna.  

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1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

But no account of him saying any of this or doing any of this from an eye witness. I know it's flimsy maybe but it's a hypothetical question i thought worth asking based on the other parallels. The love totally didn't have to be reciprocal between Rhaegar and Jon Con either but it does make one wonder if Rhaegar was aware at all. 

It is more than extremely flimsy, and actually, it isn't worth asking. In fact, it is less plausible than my theory of the great other being the bastard child of megatron and optimus prime 

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1 minute ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

It is more than extremely flimsy, and actually, it isn't worth asking. In fact, it is less plausible than my theory of the great other being the bastard child of megatron and optimus prime 

Lmao well your entitled to think that 

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42 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Again, it's not just about their preferred hobbies. It's about their greater parallels from the Tourney and other characteristics that Mirror Loras and Renly to Arthur and Rhaegar.

And yes, he married for duty. But why is it so hard to imagine a gay king in the mix? Really?

Nothing. If the author wanted one he would have given us one. Corlys Velaryon was almost there.

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Martin can't break tropes, even his own?Specially when he gave you a current narrative that may possibly mirror that of Rhaegar's then.

When it happens, we readers of all of his work will know. So far, it hasn't happened.

Quote

Yea im not buying this cherry picking over what Howland and Meera were being honest about and what they weren't. Thats a nice convenient argument but i dont buy it. Either every thing they said was true, or none of it. If they wanted to with hold, they could have, just like how she doesn't finish the story of who crowned the Maid. 

The author will reveal the information about this tourney when necessary. If he tells us back in books 2, 3, or 4, what the answers to some of the biggest mysteries are, then that sorta leaves the final books unnecessary to a large degree. It is a planned reveal that keep us readers chomping between the book releases.

What Howland and Meera/Jojen tell is not cherry picking. It is the slow reveal of information done in a methodical way, otherwise they would just be exposition machines that just dribble out everything we need to know. There is more to be revealed, but what we know is not a lie, but may not be what we the reader assumes. The author loves the use of his ellipses ... in every major detail we need to know about. Just as what's his face walks in when Nan was getting to the major details of the scary stories for Bran.

Quote

Not all though, there are people such as Eddard who doesnt' seem to realize as he is puzzled over why Renly would want a woman that looks like Lyanna. Who didn't, he wanted her for Robert. 

Eddard ain't the brightest tool in the knife drawer on many issues. I like Eddard, but even when he speaks to Arya, he misses the point of what the other person is saying and makes illogical calls in result.

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Let's not just believe that nameless Fan Service adaptation as fact,

I would never dream of such an abominable thing to do. I don't buy into bought and paid for fanfiction. The books are canon, and that is it. I have also said many times that the story isn't over until we read the words "the end".

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So it's a worthy question to still ask imo and one i havn't seen before that i can see possibly mirrored as pointed out by those Tourneys. 

And to narrow down what I was saying before, no, I do not see anything in the books leading to Rhaegar being gay or bi-sexual. This tourney is not like the other tourneys. Everything from those involved in the planning, to the location, to the attendants, it all works together for a specific reason. There might be some tourney foreshadowing when it comes to certain Sansa arcs, and that does include Sansa also being like a new/junior version of Lyanna (not just an Arya-Lyanna parallel).

Quote

 

 Not that she is the right blood come together again finally to make a dragon, even Martin has said Dany is like 1/20 as Targaryen as Aegon I. So that's not why she hatched dragons. So if her blood isn't important, than she may not even be a Targaryen.

Well, the idea of blood and kings blood and all of that may not be so much a percentage, but who has the right drop. You can be only 1/20 Targaryen, but if you have the right drop ( dare I say gene?), and maybe the blood sacrifices to assist, then maybe that is the mixture? Brown Ben Plumm is probably a current story example of this.

Quote

If i apply the Tourney evidence and Bael and Mance evidence, it would suggest that Jon is Mance's child, and Daenerys is either Eddard's or Mance's. Again, this is based off my Bael and Alysanne thread. Which plays out into the Dance with Rhaenrya and Daemon who's son together and King Aegon III was the dragon's bane. They ended the line due to their Stark blood. So any blood she has, isn't that of the Dragon. Mirri woke the dragon in the tent. Woke it from he ice line, similar to how i see Nissa Nissa being an Other who was stabbed by Azor Ahai. From their came their child who may have died like Danys so that Nissa Nissa would be the mother of Dragons. It all rhymes. and if that does. Then Rhaegar and Renly can. 

But what does it add to the story? That is always the most important question. The author has never shied away from male-male romances in any of his stories ever, and we even have some in ASOAIF.

We already have a male love triangle with Rhaegar in the way of Jon Connington, who is alive and active in the story and wants vengeance (there is that cyclical enemy of humanity again) for his silver prince.

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2 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

So, you can't find it? 

 

 

Quote

 

A Dance with Dragons - The Kingbreaker

Perhaps by now he should have grown used to such things. The Red Keep had its secrets too. Even Rhaegar. The Prince of Dragonstone had never trusted him as he had trusted Arthur Dayne. Harrenhal was proof of that. The year of the false spring.

 

 
Im just not gonna deal with you if you really are going to be like this haha your not a newbie and you should know this, unless you've just been eating your own bs for so long you love the taste. 
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4 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Nothing. If the author wanted one he would have given us one. Corlys Velaryon was almost there.

When it happens, we readers of all of his work will know. So far, it hasn't happened.

The author will reveal the information about this tourney when necessary. If he tells us back in books 2, 3, or 4, what the answers to some of the biggest mysteries are, then that sorta leaves the final books unnecessary to a large degree. It is a planned reveal that keep us readers chomping between the book releases.

What Howland and Meera/Jojen tell is not cherry picking. It is the slow reveal of information done in a methodical way, otherwise they would just be exposition machines that just dribble out everything we need to know. There is more to be revealed, but what we know is not a lie, but may not be what we the reader assumes. The author loves the use of his ellipses ... in every major detail we need to know about. Just as what's his face walks in when Nan was getting to the major details of the scary stories for Bran.

Eddard ain't the brightest tool in the knife drawer on many issues. I like Eddard, but even when he speaks to Arya, he misses the point of what the other person is saying and makes illogical calls in result.

I would never dream of such an abominable thing to do. I don't buy into bought and paid for fanfiction. The books are canon, and that is it. I have also said many times that the story isn't over until we read the words "the end".

And to narrow down what I was saying before, no, I do not see anything in the books leading to Rhaegar being gay or bi-sexual. This tourney is not like the other tourneys. Everything from those involved in the planning, to the location, to the attendants, it all works together for a specific reason. There might be some tourney foreshadowing when it comes to certain Sansa arcs, and that does include Sansa also being like a new/junior version of Lyanna (not just an Arya-Lyanna parallel).

Well, the idea of blood and kings blood and all of that may not be so much a percentage, but who has the right drop. You can be only 1/20 Targaryen, but if you have the right drop ( dare I say gene?), and maybe the blood sacrifices to assist, then maybe that is the mixture? Brown Ben Plumm is probably a current story example of this.

But what does it add to the story? That is always the most important question. The author has never shied away from male-male romances in any of his stories ever, and we even have some in ASOAIF.

We already have a male love triangle with Rhaegar in the way of Jon Connington, who is alive and active in the story and wants vengeance (there is that cyclical enemy of humanity again) for his silver prince.

haha i like your responses as always, but ill have to respond back later. Back to adulting for now :) 

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43 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Again, it's not just about their preferred hobbies. It's about their greater parallels from the Tourney and other characteristics that Mirror Loras and Renly to Arthur and Rhaegar.

I'm wondering, if Rhaegar is to Loras in your parallel hypothesis, and the fact that he plays the harp is only applicable to the parallel, where is it mentioned that Loras plays the harp? 

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4 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Barristan would still have more of a window into the lives of royalty than anyone else alive in the novels.

Yes, having served four kings (if you count Joffrey) and a queen, he's certainly a first-rate authority there, in general terms.  

However, this is about the more specific question of whether (1) he really knew Rhaegar was in love with Lyanna or (2) he had just drawn a conclusion based on uncertain knowledge.  

I don't think we can know the answer to that because the canon (so typically) just isn't clear.  

4 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

As for the ashara timeline, why would she need to kill herself right after the baby died.

She wouldn't.  

But if she didn't, then Selmy still leaped to a false conclusion, because he explicitly thinks she did -- "soon after," he thinks, as opposed to "more than a year after the baby died."

I'm actually not even sure there was a baby... or that Ashara is dead.  Selmy seems to be a tad overconfident on those points as well (though he could be right on both).

ETA: Or for that matter, whether she was even "dishonored" at Harrenhal.  All these things seem open to debate and could arise solely from rumor.

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